A Letter To Smyrna-The Persecuted Church
Published on May 13, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
John is now instructed to write a letter to the church at Smyrna. This is what was written:

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Smyrna, a town of about 200,000 in John's day was about 35 miles away from Ephesus in Asia Minor founded about three centuries before Christ by Alexander the Great. This big city was next in line along what we've been calling the postal route or circuit of churches with the first being Ephesus.

This city was filled with pagan temples of idolatry. Among them were Cybele, Apollo, Ashlepios, Aphrodite, Zeus and the temple to Rome (Dea Roma) Temple to Tiberuius. The Dea Roma means Goddess of Rome or Roman Goddess.

So we can see this city, a major seaport, was extremely pagan chasing after many gods. There were many roads in and out of this city both physically and spiritually. Smyrna's allegiance to Rome was strong. It was very a very wealthy city, the most prosperous of that area, with a very active and influential Jewish population.

Smyrna was known for its grove trees. These trees produced a gum like substance that was yellowish red or brown in color producing a very aromatic perfume called myrhh. So Smyrna was well known for its myrrh. To extract the perfume one had to crush the plant and squeeze the drippings out of it. Many think of the Church of Smyrna acted as a myrrh plant. This church, faithful to the gospel, was squeezed, crushed and when so produced a sweet smelling aroma to God as a result of all the persecution it would endure. This perfume, we see in the gospels, was used for both Christ's birth and buriel.

Here John writes they are going to die now and in the future as believers as a result of this persecution now and to come. Notice how this is wrapped up tho. Jesus describes himself as one that lived and died as they also will do. He's telling them it's ok. He will be there with them. He's well aware of what's happening to them. He went first and serves as their example.

The word "tribulation" in the Greek is "Thilpsis" and means "crush, press, compress, squeeze, to break."

This church was preaching the word of God in a pagan city of 200,000. They were pressing forward the gospel of Christ and being persecuted for it. We, in this country, have not a clue as to what persecution really is. Oh, we get a taste here and there, but it's really not even close to their affliction. The more we resist compromising with the world the more persecution we get. Here in Smyrna this church refused to compromise. As a result they received both commendation from Christ and persecution from the world.

The source of the persecution back then came through three sources.

1. Roman Government
2. Pagan Idol Worshippers
3. Jewish Zealots

Domitian was the first Emporer off Rome to institute mandatory Emporer worship. It was required law, once a year, to walk into the Temple of Tiberius, stand by the big statue of the Emperor, burn incense to him and say "Caesar is Lord. This was required.

The second source was the idol worshippers. A Christian, resisting all forms of pagan worship would be subject to ridicule and considered an outcast to society. This was especially hard when trying to sell their wares or do any type of business along the streets of Smyrna. Christians would be shunned as being different from the rest of the community. In order to do business a compromise would have to take place.

The third source were the Jewish Zealots. They were very active and influential. They were subservient to the Roman government and by paying tributes to Caesar, Rome allowed them to practice their faith freely without penalty. For a while Christians were protected as well under the banner of Judaism because many knew that Christianity was born of Judaism with Jesus, the Jew as their Messiah. So both Jew and Christian were blended together until Nero started blaming the Christians for things they were not responsible for.

At that time the Jewish zealots separated themselves by saying "we've never accepted these Christians. They are not part of us." Many false reports started up against the Christians and they were greatly targeted and the antaginism between the two faiths grew. The Christians were being watched carefully. Did they worship the Emperor as required by law? Did they participate in the local parades down the city streets? Did they join in their pagan festivities at all? It was very taboo to be Christian.

Here Jesus says he knows their poverty which really means they were beggers. They had nothing in comparison to the community. The Christian in Smyrna was not materially wealthy rather more like a begger for food. These Jews that were outward but not inward Jews were doing the work of Satan.

What is the work of Satan? Satan is a liar and a destroyer. He loves nothing more than to torture, persecute, destroy the Christian. He'll take it as far as he's able. The war between God and Satan is a spiritual one. We are caught in the middle of a great battle. Here in Smyrna you had to be a real Christian to live under these circumstances. Many analogies are drawn in scripture of a soldier in battle for this reason. Today we sang "Onward Christian Soldiers" in church to remember this.

These were the martyrs of the early church. To be a martyr was to be a witness for Christ. Polycarp was considered the 12th martyr of Smyrna. He, a disciple of John, was burned at the stake after being scalded in hot oil on Feb 23, 156. He was very influential and was brought in before the government of Rome to recant his belief in Christ. They wished him to prove his allegience to Rome by burning incense and declaring Caesar as Lord. He said, "I can't, Jesus is my Lord and I shan't say anything else."

He was taken into the middle of the street and killed for all to see. This was a reminder to those citizens what would be done to them if they too dared to go against Rome by following Christ. Rome drove that gaunlet down deep.

Through all of this Jesus says to John not to fear. Yes, Satan is on the warpath against those who dare to follow him. Satan desires that we compromise our speech and actions. We saw that Ephesus lost their first love. Smyrna never did. How else could they go through all this without a deep love for God. Smyrna is one of the two churches that received no condemnation from Christ, the other being the church at Philadelphia.

The greater the persecution, the greater the purity of the church. Here in this church 100% were on board. Those will not stay that are not willing to sacrifice their all. This church was one of sacrifice. They left all behind and paid a dear price for it.

Martin Luther said that persecution is the mark of a true church. Those that are rightly preaching the gospel of Christ will be persecuted to some extent. They are promised a crown of life and will escape the second death.

War is not without cost. We know that. Just look at Iraq. War is not cheap whether we agree or disagree with what's going on in Iraq we can all agree there is a cost involved. Are we, like many soldiers fighting battles all over the world, ready to give up all as a test of our love for God and to further his kingdom? Just mentioning the name of Christ infuriates the world. It's ok to mention God as in the generic sense, but please don't mention Jesus. During the V-Tech memorial many noticed that while Buddah and Mohammed were mentioned no one invoked the name of Jesus. No one. While His name is not politically correct it is biblically correct.

Even today while we don't suffer even the remotest types of persecution those in Smyrna faced we too will face some backlash when and if we dare open our mouths about Christ. We may lose that contract. We may not get that job. We may get fired. We may lose our friends and family members may distanced themselves from us.

Right now HR 1592 was passed by the House and is now working its way to the Senate. If this passes, and it's expected it will, there may be further persecution for the churches here in this country down the road. If you say anything against anyone's sexual orientation or if someone "perceives" that we don't agree with that lifestyle we could receive up to 10 years in prison. If this passes, the government will have authority to reach into the churches and put pastors or SS teachers in prison.

Are we like those in the church of Ephesus that has lost its first love or are we like the suffering church of Smyrna ready and willing to go through whatever it takes to bring forth the gospel of Christ even in the face of adversity? Christ said that one must be born again to enter heaven. If the church was doing what it was meant to do, there would be a whole lot more birthing going on.

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27“And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28“For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29“lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30“saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31“Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33“So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.-Jesus in Luke 14:
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Comments (Page 4)
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on May 25, 2007
KFC POSTS:
Christ said....you must be born again.

Once born again, how do you get unborn?

It's impossible.



If "born again" is Baptism as in St.John 3:3,5, I agree 100%. Once baptized, always baptized. There is no getting un-baptized.

This is what the Church teaches on St.John 3:3,5. Because of Original Sin we are born without grace in our souls, so there is no way for us to have fellowship with God. Jesus became Man to bring us into union with the Father.

He said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is first born of "water and of the Spirit" 3:5 and this refers to Baptism.
Through the Sacrament of Baptism we are born again, but this time on a spiritual level instead of a physical level. We are washed in the bath of rebirth. Titus 3:5. We are baptized into Christ's death and therefore share in His Resurrection. Rom. 6:3-7.

Baptism cleanses us of our sins and brings the Holy Spirit and His grace (sanctifying grace) into our souls Acts.2:38, 22:16. By our Baptism we become Christians, made a member of the Church and in the Mystical Body of Christ, children of God and heirs to the kingdom of Heaven.

on May 25, 2007
KFC POSTS:




LittleWhip,


Why don't you join us?


Ditto. The water is fine.

on May 25, 2007
KFC POSTS #23

How can I lose a gift that Christ gave to me? Since Salvation is a gift from God, is he going to take it back if I'm not GOOD ENOUGH? How can I lose his payment for sin? Can God declare me guilty after he has already declared me not guilty?




KFC POSTS: How can I lose a gift that Christ gave to me? Since Salvation is a gift from God, is he going to take it back if I'm not GOOD ENOUGH?


Thess are rather odd questions. One can't lose something if one hasn't accepted it in the first place. A gift is freely given or offered....and one has to accept the gift. Since no gift can be forced on a recipient---gifts can always be rejected--even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. Judas rejected Christ's gift and thus threw away his salvation.

We throw it away through grave, mortal sin. St.John 15:5-6; Rom 11:22-23; 1Cor. 15:1-2. St.Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is death." Rom. 6:23.

Over and over again, St.Paul warned Christians against sin. He wouldn't have made the warnings if their sins could not exclude them from heaven. 1Cor.6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21. Remember, he reminded Christians in Rome that God "would repay according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perservance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness." Rom. 2:6-8.

Sins are nothing but evil works.

on May 25, 2007
our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all....

If you say so, ....I totally disagree.


ok fair enough, but what do you do with the scripture I put down regarding this topic?

"the heart is deceitful above all things; and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jer 17:9

"there is none righteous, no not one, There is none that understands there is none that seek after God. Romans 3:10-11.

"And you has he quickened (regenerated) who were DEAD in trespasses and sins." Eph 2:1

I back our not ever being good enough with scripture. What are you backing it up with?

Baptism cleanses us of our sins and brings the Holy Spirit and His grace (sanctifying grace) into our souls Acts.2:38, 22:16. By our Baptism we become Christians, made a member of the Church and in the Mystical Body of Christ, children of God and heirs to the kingdom of Heaven.


we've already been around and around on "water" baptism...which is a work. It's something WE do. I do not believe we are cleansed by "water" baptism. We are cleansed by the blood of the lamb.

"......Unot him that loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood." Rev 1:5.

"But if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of JC his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." 1 John 1:7

"How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Heb 9:14.

Your mention of Acts 22:16 says this:

And now why tarriest you? arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

It's the calling on the name of the Lord, accepting his blood sacrifice that cleanses us. It's never about "water" baptism.

"For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom 10:13.

by calling on his name, you're in effect accepting his sacrifice, and by believing you are cleansed and forever saved.

Thess are rather odd questions. One can't lose something if one hasn't accepted it in the first place.


wait....let's back up. Are we not talking about those who were Christians but had LOST their salvation? That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about those that have accepted but may have "unconfessed" sin at their death. Your take has been they go to hell and mine is they are forever saved regardless of what happened on the way to eternity after already accepting Christ as Savior.

A gift is freely given or offered....and one has to accept the gift. Since no gift can be forced on a recipient---gifts can always be rejected--even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. Judas rejected Christ's gift and thus threw away his salvation.


see, you're saying we're justified and then not justified. That's like saying, we're saved and not saved. I don't believe we reject this gift because I believe in election. I believe that it's God who predestined us and we have no choice but to accept. Once our eyes are open, it's a duh decision. Like Paul on the road to Damascus. We've already discussed that none will chose God...none. We also discussed that Jesus said "You did not choose me, I chose you." We just think when we accept this free gift that it us who did the choosing. We didn't choose. He chose us. Rember Eph 1:4...the father chooses, son redeems, HS seals?




on May 25, 2007
Over and over again, St.Paul warned Christians against sin. He wouldn't have made the warnings if their sins could not exclude them from heaven. 1Cor.6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21. Remember, he reminded Christians in Rome that God "would repay according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perservance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness." Rom. 2:6-8.

Sins are nothing but evil works.


See now you're talking again about Christians and sin. So you're back and forth. Is it Christians or non Christians? If we never accepted the free gift we were never Christians to begin with.

Again you're going back to Corinthians which I've already told you they were not doing so well. They were not acting as Christians. This section you quote here says....

"and such were SOME OF YOU, but you are WASHED but you are sanctified but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of Our God." v11

so there's that "in the name" again. They are justified, sanctified, WASHED, or cleansed not by water like I've been saying but by the name of Christ.

the rest are not so yes, they will be found naked and not clothed with his
righteousness.

Now for you Gal 5:19-21 section. Did you not notice after all those sins were mentioned that it said this:...

"they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

The tense indicates habitually practicing these sins exhibiting a lifestyle that shows an unsaved condition.

back to Romans 6:1..."shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

Actually Peter lists a bunch of sins in Peter 4:15 even a murderer. He says:

"But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters."

In that whole section Peter is speaking about us as Christians that we will suffer in this life. Sometimes we suffer because of our own sin and sometimes we suffer because of Christ. So if you are going to suffer it's better to suffer for him and his glory than because you steal or murder someone and have to pay the consequences. HE'S TALKING TO CHRISTIANS. But he never aludes to losing one's salvation by sinning even if it becomes murder....which hopefully is a very rare occurance for a Christian to do.









on May 28, 2007
KFC POSTS:
our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all....

LULAPILGRIM POSTS: If you say so, ....I totally disagree.

KFC POSTS: ok fair enough, but what do you do with the scripture I put down regarding this topic?

"the heart is deceitful above all things; and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jer 17:9
"there is none righteous, no not one, There is none that understands there is none that seek after God. Romans 3:10-11.
"And you has he quickened (regenerated) who were DEAD in trespasses and sins." Eph 2:1


I back our not ever being good enough with scripture. What are you backing it up with?


I can’t see how these 3 passages relate to salvation or how they make your point. You say our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all.

I disagree based on our judgment at death or at the Last Judgment whichever comes first. As much as God is a loving God, He is equally a Just God.

2Thess.1: 6-9, St.Paul is clear that God will judge each of us according to his works, merits, whether or not he believes and obeys the Gospel. Elsewhere he says that ‘the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God.” 1Cor. 6:9; Gal. 5:20-21; Eph. 5:5.

In St. Matt. 25:41 Christ will judge each one of our thoughts, words and actions and separate us according to our deeds. He will tell the wicked to depart from Him into everlasting fire and in 25:24, He will say to the just (good) come to everlasting life.
on May 28, 2007
LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
Baptism cleanses us of our sins and brings the Holy Spirit and His grace (sanctifying grace) into our souls Acts.2:38, 22:16. By our Baptism we become Christians, made a member of the Church and in the Mystical Body of Christ, children of God and heirs to the kingdom of Heaven.


KFC POSTS:
we've already been around and around on "water" baptism...which is a work. It's something WE do. I do not believe we are cleansed by "water" baptism. We are cleansed by the blood of the lamb.

"......Unot him that loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood." Rev 1:5.
"But if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of JC his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." 1 John 1:7
"How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Heb 9:14.

Your mention of Acts 22:16 says this:

And now why tarriest you? arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

It's the calling on the name of the Lord, accepting his blood sacrifice that cleanses us. It's never about "water" baptism.

"For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom 10:13.
by calling on his name, you're in effect accepting his sacrifice, and by believing you are cleansed and forever saved.



You disagree/object to my saying that Baptism "cleanses" us of our sins, yet Acts 22:14 has it right there. Shortly after Pentecost, St.Peter speaks of Baptism as the "remission of sins" Acts. 2

You say,...."water" baptism...which is a work. It's something WE do....."It's never about "water" baptism."


What does the word "It's" mean? What is never about "water baptism"?

KFC, notice in the following passages how very important Baptism is to Jesus, St.Paul, St. Matthew, St. Mark and St.John. None seem troubled that "water baptism" is a "work". Why are you?

Catholics believe Baptism is a Sacrament which was insituted by Christ based on 4 Scriptural passages.

"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." St. Matt.28:18-20.

"He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned." St.Mark 16:16.

From the very day on which the Holy Ghost came down on them, the Apostles administered Baptism. St.Peter's words stung the consciences of the Jews on that day: "Now when they had heard these things they asked St. Peter and the rest of the Apostles: "what shall we do men and brethren"? St.Peter answered, "Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the HOly Ghost." Acts.2:37-38. St.Paul was baptized immediately after his conversion Acts 9:18.

Jesus told Nicodemus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven." St.John 3:5.

The rite of Baptism is given by immersion or pouring water on the head of the person to be baptized saying at the same time, "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."


on May 28, 2007
Just a follow-up on Smyrna.
During his stay in Smyrna around 110, St.Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, and one of the Church Fathers, wrote his famous Letters to the Chruches of Ephesus, Magnesia, Tralles, and after his departure he wrote a Letter to the Church at Smyrna and another to BIshop Polycarp.

Under Decius in the 3rd century, Pionus suffered martyrdom in Smyrna; Eusebius of Caesarea wrote the account. The scene of frequesnt battles during the centuries, Smyrna was captured by the Seljuk Turks in 1084, retaken by the Byzantines in 1097, then captured by the Ottoman Turks, and by the Genoese in the 14th century. It was burned by Timor in 1402, and finally conquered by the Turks in 1425.

Smyrna was occupied by the Greeks in 1919, ceded to Greece in 1920 in the Treaty of San Remo, but captured again by the Turks in 1922, and rebuilt in 1932.
on May 28, 2007
I can’t see how these 3 passages relate to salvation or how they make your point. You say our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all.


because these are just a sampling to show that we CANNOT be good enough. If our heart is evil how good can we be? What can a dead man do? We are DEAD in our sin so says scripture, before he breathes new life into us. How about this one...

"We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags...."Isa 64:6

I disagree based on our judgment at death or at the Last Judgment whichever comes first. As much as God is a loving God, He is equally a Just God.


but that's just it, for those who have accepted Christ here on this side, they have already past the judgment. They will not be judged. They have been pardoned not to be retried. At the White Throne Judgement at the very end of Revelation, it's for non-believers only. Since they are not "just" they will be judged according to their works because that's all they have...they don't have Christ. They will be found naked and wanting.

Elsewhere he says that ‘the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God.” 1Cor. 6:9; Gal. 5:20-21; Eph. 5:5.


this is true. How do we get "just?" We are just....not because what we have done but what Jesus has done. It's not us being just. It's him. We are identified with him. When God looks at us, he now sees his son IN US. We are only found righteous because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ...not our own.

this is works....nothing to do with salavatin...two diff things. Our works will be tried by fire like I showed you earlier in Corinthians..remember? Some will barely get in with all their works burned up.

The rewards come as a result of our works. The bible speaks of rewards as crowns. There are five diff crowns that are offered to believers as a result of their works....but it has nothing to do with salavation.

"knowing that a man is NOT JUSTIFIED by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by faith of Christ and NOT BY THE WORKS of the law for by the works of the law shall NO flesh be justified." Gal 2:16

Scripture all throughout is clear. We are saved BY GRACE, THRU FAITH apart from works.... to do good works, not saved BY our good works. It's all based on belief.

In St. Matt. 25:41 Christ will judge each one of our thoughts, words and actions and separate us according to our deeds. He will tell the wicked to depart from Him into everlasting fire and in 25:24


are you sure you got the right scripture here? Doesn't make sense with what you're saying?

But if you notice in 25:31 this is Christ coming with his Angels. This is for the JEWS not the church. Whenever it says he's coming with his angels it's after the tribulation and it's for the JEWS. When he says to the Disciples in 14:3 that he's going to prepare a place and will return for them, it's for the church. There are two comings one, for the church and another for the JEWS after the trib. That's why we see differences in the coming. One, he comes alone and another he comes with a mighty army. One he comes as a thief in the night (alone) and another he comes so that every eye shall see him as in Matt 25. Some other scripture to look at is 1 Thess 4:16-17, Acts 1:9-11 (alone-no angels).

2Thess.1: 6-9, St.Paul is clear that God will judge each of us according to his works


while we're at it...this doesn't make sense either.








on May 29, 2007
these are just a sampling to show that we CANNOT be good enough. If our heart is evil how good can we be?


Of course, we can be good enough ...just as our children can be good enough when they obey us, when they do what they are told.

It's not our hearts that condemn us, it's our sinful actions.

Look, Christianity is a relationship with Almighty God. A relationship is a two way thing. Jesus loves us and we must love Him back. How do we love and serve Him? By doing what He asks of us. What is it that Jesus wants and asks of us? Jesus wants us to obey certain rules and regulations...those that He and His Apostles set forth. God gave the Ten COmmandments, all rules worth living by and ones I'm sure you'd agree we must obey. When they are broken we suffer unendurable societal choas and misery. We are sinning against God by breaking the Commandments, a path that leads to eternal misery.

The same with the rules that Our Lord, Himself gave us: give drink to the thirsty; clothe the naked, etc. (St.Matt 25:31-46) believe in Me (St.Jn 14:1); be baptized for the remissions of your sins (St.Jn 3:5, Acts 2:37-39); Eat My flesh and drink My Blood in the Eucharist (St.Jn 6; 1Cor.11:23-29); listen to the teachers I have appointed and commissioned to instruct you (St.Luke 10:16); obey the teachings of the Church I established (St.Matt 28:19-20) and so on.

Christ reminds us we are to live according to His precepts He provided. We are to do what we are told. If we love Him, we will do what He asks. If we fail, when we fail, we repent, ask forgiveness and try not to repeat the same offense. He will forgive us 70 times 7. Our sins will be washed as white as snow...and He will remember them no more.

Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I tell you? St.Luke 6:46. "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven." St.Matt 7:21. "If you would enter life, keep my Commandments." St. Matt. 19:17.

St.John echoes Our Lord, " Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God, and we receive from Him whatever we ask, becasue we keep His commandments and do what pleases Him. And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He commanded us. All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Holy Spirit which He has given us. 3:21-24.

We must pay close attention to the rules He has given us if we are truly living out our relationship with Him and with one another as He desires us to.

Sin matters, sin counts against us, on the Last Day, He will separate the sheep from the goats, and no one will escape His Final Judgment. We must understand this with all our hearts,
on May 30, 2007
Of course, we can be good enough ...just as our children can be good enough when they obey us, when they do what they are told.

It's not our hearts that condemn us, it's our sinful actions.


These two statements cannot be backed up by scripture. Notice what you said tho..."our children." So first they have to be in your family right? Then comes obedience, love and honor right? It's the same with salvation. We must first be in the family of God before we do such things. But it's God who picks us, not the other way around. Just like our kids have no say about being born into our family. Just like Adam and Eve had no choice to be born into God's first family.

I just showed you how the heart is deceitfully wicked ABOVE all other things.....BEFORE we are saved. That's what we're talking about Lula. I'm saying we cannot earn salvation by our works because we are unable. "There is NONE that seek after God" so says Paul in Romans...NONE. Jesus said "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." It's only God who can do heart surgery. Only he gives us a new heart. Then we are able to be obedient....but that's AFTER salvation. Just like our children as members of the family love and honor us.

Again by your response I can see you're doing the topical thing...you are going all over the place trying to piece scripture together to make it fit your theology. You have to take it in context. The scriptures I've given you just get ignored and you move on to the next topical scripture that "sounds" good.

For instance...in Luke 6:46 if you look at it in context he's talking FRUIT..not ROOT. You have them mixed up. Fruit is something outside ROOT. First you must be rooted. Only then can you bear fruit (works). A rootless branch gives no fruit. You're trying to make fruit fit where root is supposed to fit.

You gave me a boatload of scriptures but totally ignored Gal 2:16 where it says we are justified OUTSIDE of the law. So how does Gal 2:16 fit with all your scriptures you've selected? How do you reconcile them?

Keep in mind our works are EVIDENCE of who we belong to. Our works are not how we receive SALVATION. Salvation is a free gift OUTSIDE of any work we do. Our works come about AFTER Salvation being grateful for what he's done for us. Salvation is the root, and works are the fruit. First comes salvation, then comes fruit. We must be rooted BEFORE we can bear fruit.

You've got it the other way around.
on May 30, 2007
KFC POSTS:
Notice what you said tho..."our children." So first they have to be in your family right? Then comes obedience, love and honor right? It's the same with salvation. We must first be in the family of God before we do such things. But it's God who picks us, not the other way around.


Yes, I agree with much of this. In Catholicism the natural family is the "domestic Church"...and very important and analagous to the spiritual family...all in Christ.

Using your words, I can describe what you are saying with one word: Baptism. In Baptism, we are first in the family of God; we become children of God and heirs to Heaven. Our wicked heart (soul stained by original sin)is made clean by sanctifying grace, a free gift from God. I don't know how to fit in your saying that it's God who picks us because we enter into Baptism with free will...and we beseech the Holy Ghost and His free gift of sanctifying grace. For Catholics, Baptism sets us on the road to salvation..we are good to go...reborn into a new life united to Christ. This new life requires us to live in a new supernatural way which with the help of grace gradually becomes stronger and stronger and acts to perfect our behavior (make us good). It is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me. I guess in this sense, Baptism is the root you keep talking about and the gifts of Baptism the fruit!!!

Here is me trying to fit your lingo with the Catholic meaning of Baptism!! The gifts(fruits?)of Baptism (root) is the beginning of our new life united in Christ (ongoing sanctification with the help of His grace to help us remain in His friendship, repent of sin and obey His commands, which I have outlined above).


You gave me a boatload of scriptures but totally ignored Gal 2:16 where it says we are justified OUTSIDE of the law. So how does Gal 2:16 fit with all your scriptures you've selected? How do you reconcile them?


Gal.2:15-16, "We ourselves who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall noone be justified."

St.Paul is refers back and forth to the Old Covenant Law of justification which he knows has been abrogated by Christ's death on the Cross. Yet, there is confusion amongst the Galations and he is recommending patience and understanding towards those "weak" in the faith. The new Christians of Jewish origin want to hold on to some Jewish observances of the OLd Mosaic Law connected with the fast days, clean and unclean food, and abstinence from flesh of animals sacrificed to idols. (Rom 14:2-6; 1Cor. 10:23-30. On the key issue of Christians freedom from the Mosaic Law the Apostles are firm and unambiguous at the Council of Jerusalem on settling the question whether or not Christians of Gentile origin were obliged to adopt a Jewish lifestyle.

V. 15 StPaul is acknowledging that he, St.Peter and the other Apostles are of the Jewish race and therefore belonged to a once chosen people. Even though, they held that salvation was not attainable through observance of the Mosaic Law "becasue by works of the law shall no one be justified." V. 16, Rom. 3:21-26.

V.16, we might say there are 3 periods in observance of the prescription of the Law. 1)---prior to Christ's Passion, the precepts of the Mosaic Law were alive, that is it was obligatory to keep them. 2)was an intermediatory stage: the 2nd period was between the Passion and the spread of Apostolic preaching The Law's precepts were already "dead", no longer obilgatory, but,they were not lethal in that Jewish converts could keep them as long as they didn't rely upon them, for Christ was already the basis of their hope. 3) in the 3rd stage in which we find ourselves, observance of Jewish precepts as a means of salvation amounts to denying the redemptive power of Christ and therefore they could be termed "lethal".


on May 30, 2007
Using your words, I can describe what you are saying with one word: Baptism. In Baptism, we are first in the family of God; we become children of God and heirs to Heaven


You know I'd agree with you but one thing here....you're talking "physical" baptism and I'd be talking of "spiritual" baptism when God's spirit indwells the believer.

So I'd say, even if we never got to "physically" be baptized...as long as we accepted the work on the cross and the free gift offered (salvation) then we are saved (belief). But water baptism is our first act of obedience and should not be overlooked. As soon as we come to the saving knowledge of Christ we should be baptized with water as a sign of our new relationship with him. Like they did in Acts, the beginning of the church.

The gifts(fruits?)of Baptism (root) is the beginning of our new life united in Christ (ongoing sanctification with the help of His grace to help us remain in His friendship, repent of sin and obey His commands, which I have outlined above).


now gifts are outside of fruit and root. Although I can see how gifts and fruit could be connected. Gifts are abilities that are God given at the moment of Salvation. The gifts of the spirit are outlined in two places especially in scripture. Romans 12 and 1 Cor 12. Some have the gift of teaching, some the gift of hospitality, some of the gift of serving or compassion...etc. This is all for the glory of God. I learned a long time ago that my gifts given by God were teaching and prophecy (not telling of the future). We can have more than one gift but should have one or two that are especially strong and something we desire to do. I know some that are great servants. Some are great at hospitality. Some have the gift of compassion. In Corinthians the gift of tongues was much debated.

God equips the local body of believers with all of these gifts so that we can better serve him. A healthy well balanced church will have all the gifts represented.

Even though, they held that salvation was not attainable through observance of the Mosaic Law "becasue by works of the law shall no one be justified." V. 16, Rom. 3:21-26.


yes, but it's not just true for the Jews and their OT Law. It's also true for the Gentiles as well. They are not only NOT bound by the OT law, they are saved by Grace. Both Jew and Gentile. The old Covenant was Law, the new Covenant is grace. We too, are not saved by works anymore than they were. They could not keep the law thus the constant need for animal sacrifice and the yearly Day of Atonement needed. It all was to point to the one that would come to take all this away.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17.

Though grace was manifest in the OT, it was but a candle compared to the brightness of grace that appeared at the Incarnation (Titus 2:11). Grace is the unmerited favor of God and is the basis of our salvation, justification, election, faith, and spiritual gifts.
on May 30, 2007
LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
In St. Matt. 25:41 Christ will judge each one of our thoughts, words and actions and separate us according to our deeds. He will tell the wicked to depart from Him into everlasting fire and in 25:24, He will say to the just (good) come to everlasting life.


KFC POSTS:
are you sure you got the right scripture here? Doesn't make sense with what you're saying?


In understanding that we will be judged by our works, let's go over what St.Matt. 25:31-46 means in regard to the description of the Last Judgment...(which I say, btw, that you WILL BE A PART OF).

It's rather long, but worth it.

31 When the Son of man shall come in His majesty, and all the angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the seat of His majesty:
32 And all nations shall be gathered together before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left.
34 Then shall the King say to them that shall be on His right hand: Come ye, blessed of My Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
35 For I was hungry and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me to drink, I was a stranger and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick and you visited me: I was in prison and you came to me.
37 then shall the just answer Him saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty and gave thee drink?
38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked and covered thee?
39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
40 And the King answering, shall say to them: Amen, I say to you, as long as ye did this to the least of my brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then He shall say to them also that shall be on His left hand: Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave Me not to drink:
43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered Me not; sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer Him, saying: Lord, when did we see Thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison and did not minister to Thee?
45 Then He shall answer them saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to the least, neither did you do it to Me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just into life everlasting."


V. 35-46, All the various things listed in this passage become works of charity when the person doing them sees Christ in these least of his brethren. Here we can see the seriousness of sins of omission. We must learn to recognize Christ when He comes out to meet us in our brothers, all the people around us. No human life is ever isolated...it is bound up with other lives. We will be judged on the degree and quality of our love for God for His own sake and for our neighbor. Our Lord will ask us to give an account not only for the evil we have done but also for the good we have omitted.

Yes, for many of us, we can't be sure if we are loving God, although we may have good reasons for believing we are...but we can know quite well if we are loving our neighbor. It goes hand in hand..the further advanced we are at loving our neighbor, then , the greater the love we will have for God.

V. 46, The eternal punishment of the unjust reprobate and the eternal reward of the elect are a dogma of Faith defined by the Magisterium of the CC. This is an infallible pronouncement. Christ will come at the end of the world; He will judge the living and the dead; and He will reward ALL, both the lost and the elect, according to their works. And all these will rise with their own bodies which they now have so that they may recieve according to their works, whether good or bad. The wicked, will be awarded a perpetual punishment with the devil; the good, eternal glory with Christ.
on May 30, 2007
ok, now having read that particular piece of scripture you cited. I want you to reconcile it with this one? How do the two fit together?

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead IN Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to gather with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Comfort one another with these words." 1 Thess 4:15-17

Notice what you quoted:

31 When the Son of man shall come in His majesty, and all the angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the seat of His majesty:



and notice what Paul said: "the dead IN Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (GK harpazo) to gather with them in the clouds to meet the Lord."

Do you see a difference? First we see in your section that he's coming with his angels. We see he's coming in judgment (throne). In the second, there's no angels, no judgment but he's coming for his own just like he told the disciples in John 14. He's going to prepare a place for them. No judgment. When we come to belief in Christ we have passed from death to life. There is no judgment for the believers.

In Matthew 25 (after Matt 24) it's AFTER the tribulation and the focus is on the Jews. Here, in Thessalonians, Paul is focusing on the Church and it's BEFORE the tribulation. It's his second coming but in two parts. If you are still here in Matthew's coming then you WILL go thru the trib. I'm not counting on that because I see clearly that those that are in Christ will escape the great wrath of God that is about to come on the whole earth.

"Because you have kept the world of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, (mark of the beast?) which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth." Rev 3:10

"For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus."
1 Thess 5:9


As we go thru Revelation we'll see this "wrath" or Day of the Lord that the OT prophets wrote about and John forsaw in his vision of the Apocolypse.


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