A Letter To Smyrna-The Persecuted Church
Published on May 13, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
John is now instructed to write a letter to the church at Smyrna. This is what was written:

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Smyrna, a town of about 200,000 in John's day was about 35 miles away from Ephesus in Asia Minor founded about three centuries before Christ by Alexander the Great. This big city was next in line along what we've been calling the postal route or circuit of churches with the first being Ephesus.

This city was filled with pagan temples of idolatry. Among them were Cybele, Apollo, Ashlepios, Aphrodite, Zeus and the temple to Rome (Dea Roma) Temple to Tiberuius. The Dea Roma means Goddess of Rome or Roman Goddess.

So we can see this city, a major seaport, was extremely pagan chasing after many gods. There were many roads in and out of this city both physically and spiritually. Smyrna's allegiance to Rome was strong. It was very a very wealthy city, the most prosperous of that area, with a very active and influential Jewish population.

Smyrna was known for its grove trees. These trees produced a gum like substance that was yellowish red or brown in color producing a very aromatic perfume called myrhh. So Smyrna was well known for its myrrh. To extract the perfume one had to crush the plant and squeeze the drippings out of it. Many think of the Church of Smyrna acted as a myrrh plant. This church, faithful to the gospel, was squeezed, crushed and when so produced a sweet smelling aroma to God as a result of all the persecution it would endure. This perfume, we see in the gospels, was used for both Christ's birth and buriel.

Here John writes they are going to die now and in the future as believers as a result of this persecution now and to come. Notice how this is wrapped up tho. Jesus describes himself as one that lived and died as they also will do. He's telling them it's ok. He will be there with them. He's well aware of what's happening to them. He went first and serves as their example.

The word "tribulation" in the Greek is "Thilpsis" and means "crush, press, compress, squeeze, to break."

This church was preaching the word of God in a pagan city of 200,000. They were pressing forward the gospel of Christ and being persecuted for it. We, in this country, have not a clue as to what persecution really is. Oh, we get a taste here and there, but it's really not even close to their affliction. The more we resist compromising with the world the more persecution we get. Here in Smyrna this church refused to compromise. As a result they received both commendation from Christ and persecution from the world.

The source of the persecution back then came through three sources.

1. Roman Government
2. Pagan Idol Worshippers
3. Jewish Zealots

Domitian was the first Emporer off Rome to institute mandatory Emporer worship. It was required law, once a year, to walk into the Temple of Tiberius, stand by the big statue of the Emperor, burn incense to him and say "Caesar is Lord. This was required.

The second source was the idol worshippers. A Christian, resisting all forms of pagan worship would be subject to ridicule and considered an outcast to society. This was especially hard when trying to sell their wares or do any type of business along the streets of Smyrna. Christians would be shunned as being different from the rest of the community. In order to do business a compromise would have to take place.

The third source were the Jewish Zealots. They were very active and influential. They were subservient to the Roman government and by paying tributes to Caesar, Rome allowed them to practice their faith freely without penalty. For a while Christians were protected as well under the banner of Judaism because many knew that Christianity was born of Judaism with Jesus, the Jew as their Messiah. So both Jew and Christian were blended together until Nero started blaming the Christians for things they were not responsible for.

At that time the Jewish zealots separated themselves by saying "we've never accepted these Christians. They are not part of us." Many false reports started up against the Christians and they were greatly targeted and the antaginism between the two faiths grew. The Christians were being watched carefully. Did they worship the Emperor as required by law? Did they participate in the local parades down the city streets? Did they join in their pagan festivities at all? It was very taboo to be Christian.

Here Jesus says he knows their poverty which really means they were beggers. They had nothing in comparison to the community. The Christian in Smyrna was not materially wealthy rather more like a begger for food. These Jews that were outward but not inward Jews were doing the work of Satan.

What is the work of Satan? Satan is a liar and a destroyer. He loves nothing more than to torture, persecute, destroy the Christian. He'll take it as far as he's able. The war between God and Satan is a spiritual one. We are caught in the middle of a great battle. Here in Smyrna you had to be a real Christian to live under these circumstances. Many analogies are drawn in scripture of a soldier in battle for this reason. Today we sang "Onward Christian Soldiers" in church to remember this.

These were the martyrs of the early church. To be a martyr was to be a witness for Christ. Polycarp was considered the 12th martyr of Smyrna. He, a disciple of John, was burned at the stake after being scalded in hot oil on Feb 23, 156. He was very influential and was brought in before the government of Rome to recant his belief in Christ. They wished him to prove his allegience to Rome by burning incense and declaring Caesar as Lord. He said, "I can't, Jesus is my Lord and I shan't say anything else."

He was taken into the middle of the street and killed for all to see. This was a reminder to those citizens what would be done to them if they too dared to go against Rome by following Christ. Rome drove that gaunlet down deep.

Through all of this Jesus says to John not to fear. Yes, Satan is on the warpath against those who dare to follow him. Satan desires that we compromise our speech and actions. We saw that Ephesus lost their first love. Smyrna never did. How else could they go through all this without a deep love for God. Smyrna is one of the two churches that received no condemnation from Christ, the other being the church at Philadelphia.

The greater the persecution, the greater the purity of the church. Here in this church 100% were on board. Those will not stay that are not willing to sacrifice their all. This church was one of sacrifice. They left all behind and paid a dear price for it.

Martin Luther said that persecution is the mark of a true church. Those that are rightly preaching the gospel of Christ will be persecuted to some extent. They are promised a crown of life and will escape the second death.

War is not without cost. We know that. Just look at Iraq. War is not cheap whether we agree or disagree with what's going on in Iraq we can all agree there is a cost involved. Are we, like many soldiers fighting battles all over the world, ready to give up all as a test of our love for God and to further his kingdom? Just mentioning the name of Christ infuriates the world. It's ok to mention God as in the generic sense, but please don't mention Jesus. During the V-Tech memorial many noticed that while Buddah and Mohammed were mentioned no one invoked the name of Jesus. No one. While His name is not politically correct it is biblically correct.

Even today while we don't suffer even the remotest types of persecution those in Smyrna faced we too will face some backlash when and if we dare open our mouths about Christ. We may lose that contract. We may not get that job. We may get fired. We may lose our friends and family members may distanced themselves from us.

Right now HR 1592 was passed by the House and is now working its way to the Senate. If this passes, and it's expected it will, there may be further persecution for the churches here in this country down the road. If you say anything against anyone's sexual orientation or if someone "perceives" that we don't agree with that lifestyle we could receive up to 10 years in prison. If this passes, the government will have authority to reach into the churches and put pastors or SS teachers in prison.

Are we like those in the church of Ephesus that has lost its first love or are we like the suffering church of Smyrna ready and willing to go through whatever it takes to bring forth the gospel of Christ even in the face of adversity? Christ said that one must be born again to enter heaven. If the church was doing what it was meant to do, there would be a whole lot more birthing going on.

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27“And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28“For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29“lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30“saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31“Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33“So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.-Jesus in Luke 14:
"

Comments (Page 3)
5 Pages1 2 3 4 5 
on May 23, 2007
Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


you are hung up on works Lula. Okay, let's take a close look at James 2:18

"Yes a man may say, you have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

The first part is a challange:..."a man may say you have faith, and I have works."

James replies with....."show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

Yes, he is explaining it but not how you're thinking. He's saying his works are EVIDENCE that he has faith. The other guy has works but no faith. Those are the ones Christ says to..."I never knew you." They were so busy working they forgot Him in the process. They had works but their faith was in themselves.





on May 24, 2007
Have you been saved? Don't you wish you had an assurance of Salvation? "Born again" Fundamentalists and Evangelicals claim to be absolutely sure of going to Heaven immediately after death.

They conclude from Scripture that Heaven is theirs for a one-time simple act of "accepting Christ as their personal savior". The person acknowledges his sins, accepts Jesus, says the sinner’s prayer, and is “saved”. It’s a done deal...that’s true assurance. "Once saved, always saved", no matter what happens in the person’s future life from that point on---he’s “saved” and absolutely assured of getting into heaven when he dies. Jesus’ death excludes any possibility of eternal punishment for those who “accept Jesus” as their “personal Savior”. Once you have accepted Him, you can do anything you want and not lose your salvation... No matter what the person does the remainder of their life---be it living godly or living evilly, their salvation is assured. It makes no difference how one lives or ends their lives.


My understanding of the Protestant doctrine of "once saved, always saved" prompted me to ask: Couldn’t one who has heeded the altar call, announced to the congregants an acceptance of Jesus Christ justify stealing, cheating on his spouse or on a test in school, or even murder since he feels that no sin against Almighty God’s commandments, past, present or future, can cut him off from God's saving grace and forfeit his salvation?
Is OSAS a positive invitation to antinomianism, after all, if one is guaranteed Heaven, no matter what one does, then, why not have it all hang out here below while the having is good? This leads to one of 2 conclusions. Either the person was never saved in the first place, although he thought he was --or--he was saved but can now sin with impunity?


"Accepting Christ" has been explained as accomplishing one thing and one thing only....it makes God cover one's sinfulness...it makes God turn a blind eye to sin. The Reformers saw justification as a mere legal act by which God declares the sinner to be meriting Heaven even though he remains in fact unjust and sinful. It's not a real eradication of sin, but a “covering” of it. It's not an inner renewal and a real sanctification, only an external application of Christ's justice. Fundamentalist's notion that God 'covers' our sins, but does not actually remove them, is an unfortunate misreading of Scripture that found its origins in Luther and has been handed down through the centuries as Protestant oral Tradition. The few times Scripture mentions “covering” sins refers not to the forgiveness of sins by God, but to the forgiveness of one man’s sins by another. Since we cannot actually forgive one another’s sins as God, the best we can do is overlook or ‘cover’ them. The power of forgiveness of sins is not to be confused with the forgiveness of one man’s sins by another by overlooking or “covering” them.

For Catholics, salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. Christ has already redeemed ALL of us, unlocked the gates of Heaven. Christ’s redemption is not the same as salvation rather a necessary prelude. If we are to pass into Heaven, we must be in the right spiritual state...that is, we have to be spiritual alive. If at the time of death, the soul is dead spiritually that is without supernatural grace, and stained with sin, then it is incapable of entering Heaven.

Only souls that are objectively good and pleasing to God merit Heaven and such souls are filled with the sanctifying grace. It all depends on how one enters death which is why dying is, by far, one's most important act.

Every one during his lifetime is given a chance after chance to repent of his sins. God's free gift of Grace abounds if only reached for. God does everything He can short of begging us to repent.

The CC understands justification differently. The Church sees justification as a true eradication of sin and a true sanctification and renewal. The soul becomes pleasing to God and merits heaven because now its actually good. Scripture conceives of the forgiveness of sins as a real and complete removal of them. The words used are “blot out” Ps. 50:3, “clears away” 102:12 ; blotting out Is. 43:25 and “takes away” St.John 1:29 (the KJV Psalm #’s may vary).
Justification is a rebirth. It’s a generation of a supernatural life of grace in a former sinner. St. John 3:5; Titus 3:5. Justification is a thorough inner renewal. Eph. 4:23 and a real sanctification 1Cor. 6:11. The soul itself becomes beautiful and holy. It’s not just an ugly soul hidden under a beautiful cloak. Because it’s holy, it can be admitted to Heaven where nothing unclean with sin is allowed.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
His death provides salvation for all who are willing to comply with the conditions laid down by Himself.


I stand by what I wrote. The truth is that by Christ’s death we are ALL redeemed ---every person born in this world is redeemed-----BUT our salvation is conditional upon our willingness to comply with the conditions that Jesus laid down in His teachings and are so stated in His Good Book some of which I’ve cited at length.



LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
His death provides salvation for all who are willing to comply with the conditions laid down by Himself.

so, let me get this straight....we need to add to what he did on the cross? He didn't do it good enough? So when he said the work of redemption was finished...it really wasn't? As Tova said....blasphemy comes to mind here.


How you can infer-----that what I have written throughout this discussion and most recently the above quote (even without the explanation)----is blasphemy is beyond me and quite frankly goes beyond the pale. Nothing that I have written means ---that “we need to add to what he did on the cross or He didn't do it good enough or He wasn’t really finished with His work of redemption.


so, let me get this straight...we need to add to what he did on the cross? He didn't do it good enough? So when he said the work of redemption was finished...it really wasn't? ---these are your thoughts, your words, your conclusions-----not mine.

Are you getting lessons from the Bible Baptist Church of Nashua, NH? I ask becasue Wilson Ewin has authored a booklet called, There is Therefore Now No Condemnation” and says practically the same as you. He argues, “To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption”. He can say this only because he, like you, confuses redemption and salvation.
on May 24, 2007
LULA POSTS:
Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


KFC POSTS:

you are hung up on works Lula.



Gee, all I did was post this one paragraph, 3/4 of which is the biblical passage quoted and for this you rail that I'm hung up on works!!! You can't be serious.
on May 24, 2007
LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


you are hung up on works Lula. Okay, let's take a close look at James 2:18

"Yes a man may say, you have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

The first part is a challange:..."a man may say you have faith, and I have works."

James replies with....."show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

Yes, he is explaining it but not how you're thinking.


KFC, what, pray tell, is my thinking of this passage?
on May 24, 2007
LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


KFC POSTS: "Yes a man may say, you have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

The first part is a challange:..."a man may say you have faith, and I have works."

James replies with....."show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

He's saying his works are EVIDENCE that he has faith. The other guy has works but no faith. Those are the ones Christ says to..."I never knew you." They were so busy working they forgot Him in the process. They had works but their faith was in themselves.




For a fuller context, let's add v. 17, "So, faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.”

Another way we can understand the faith/works relationship is that (1) a person's faith (belief in God) must first firmly adhere to revealed truth,(2) that faith must influence a Christian's ordinary life and be a standard against the way he measures his conduct and (3) when one's works are not in accordance with faith, then one's faith is dead and useless.

V. 18 St.James makes it clear that faith without works makes no sense at all. True faith includes not only inner belief, but also outward profession which can be expressed not only by declaration of one's belief, but also by his actions a person shows that he has faith.

on May 24, 2007
Once you have accepted Him, you can do anything you want and not lose your salvation... No matter what the person does the remainder of their life---be it living godly or living evilly, their salvation is assured. It makes no difference how one lives or ends their lives.


Yes, but if you are truly saved and understand the gift that was given you, you in return are very grateful to God and will not try to offend him. You try to bring glory to him, not shame. It's not like you go off and do what you want. No, it's the beginning of a new life....."I am crucified with Christ, it's no longer I who live but Christ lives in me....

Either the person was never saved in the first place, although he thought he was --or--he was saved but can now sin with impunity?


if he's living in blatant sin and not caring about bringing shame to God, then he should examine himself to see if he's in the faith or not. It doesn't mean tho that one doesn't commit one of these types of sins once saved...they may be weak in their faith. While we still sin, we are not living sinful lives purposely shaking our fist at God. We grieve when we do such things, because Christ in us grieves with us.

For Catholics, salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. Christ has already redeemed ALL of us, unlocked the gates of Heaven. Christ’s redemption is not the same as salvation rather a necessary prelude. If we are to pass into Heaven, we must be in the right spiritual state...that is, we have to be spiritual alive. If at the time of death, the soul is dead spiritually that is without supernatural grace, and stained with sin, then it is incapable of entering Heaven.


and this is not totally untrue (ignoring the ALL for now). It's just the way we both look at it. Yes how we are at physical death determines where we spend the rest of eternity. Agree. I'm just saying scripture is clear that belief in what Christ did brings us to a saving knowledge of him and we are "sealed" at that time. Our eternity is secure. "Believe on the Lord and be saved" was the mantra of the Apostles and Christ himself. Not, believe and do anything else. The anything else comes into play AFTER belief, after the sealing.

Fundamentalist's notion that God 'covers' our sins, but does not actually remove them,


Sin in scripture is basically singular. It's our sin nature that he cares about. One sin is enough to keep us out of heaven forever. He redeemed us, reconciled us which means he brings us back to our former state...to be in harmony with him by the acceptance of what his son did on the cross. So now when he looks at us, he sees his son in us. Christ in us. I don't believe he covers our sin....he removes it. In the OT Atonement was a covering for sin...but not Christ's redemption. He removes it forever. That's why he sat down at the right hand of his father when he was done. He was finished. THe OT priests were always standing year after year.

[quote]Only souls that are objectively good and pleasing to God merit Heaven [quote]

there is no such thing.......scripture says very clearly:

"the heart is deceitful above all things; and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jer 17:9

"there is none righteous, no not one, There is none that understands there is none that seek after God. Romans 3:10-11.

"And you has he quickened (regenerated) who were DEAD in trespasses and sins." Eph 2:1
our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all....

"But God commendeth HIS love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, having now justified by HIS blood we shall be saved from wrath through HIM. For if when we were ENEMIES we were reconciled to God by the death of HIS son, much more being reconciled we shall be saved by HIS life." Romans 5:9-10.

The work is all GOD. Notice just here how many times the word his is used. It's all about HIM, not us. It's not our work but HIS work.

I stand by what I wrote. The truth is that by Christ’s death we are ALL redeemed ---every person born in this world is redeemed-----


where are you getting this from? What scripture? Was Judas redeemed? Hitler?

Gee, all I did was post this one paragraph, 3/4 of which is the biblical passage quoted and for this you rail that I'm hung up on works!!! You can't be serious.


yes, because not only have you brought up James and works but it's a favorite of the Catholics. I've talked to many and this verse ALWAYS comes up when "adding" to Christ's redemption comes up. I would call it a work. You may call it something else but regardless....if you have to do something it still comes out to a work no matter what you wish to call it.

P.S. I never heard of that church!!



on May 24, 2007
KFC, what, pray tell, is my thinking of this passage?


well since you brought it up in the context of "enduring" to the end and passing perfectly thru the tribulations, it has to do with a works based salvation coupled with the work of Christ on the cross. He did his part...and we have to do our part...right?

I don't believe that...just answering what I think you're thinking.

V. 18 St.James makes it clear that faith without works makes no sense at all. True faith includes not only inner belief, but also outward profession which can be expressed not only by declaration of one's belief, but also by his actions a person shows that he has faith.


YES, we agree totally.

(3) when one's works are not in accordance with faith, then one's faith is dead and useless.


a workless faith is a dead faith. This faith does not bring others to Christ..so it doesn't save, serve, or survive.

But remember this is works...which is fruit. You can still have crappy fruit or not much fruit and still be saved. Remember I said not to get your fruit and root mixed up? Go to 1 Cor 3:10-15 and you'll see an example of what happens to those Christians who have no reward for their works but still receive salvation.....here's the last part of that:

"if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire."

He may go into heaven a bit singed. God will try our works by fire to see what they are made of. Basically God is saying he knows if our works were to bring glory to him or glory to ourselves. This fire which I believe may have something to do with the eyes of Christ himself will reveal which they are.

"his head and his hairs were white like wool as white as snow and his eyes were as a flame of fire." Rev 1:14.
on May 25, 2007
lITTLE WHIP POSTS:

lula, you talk about 'works' a lot.


Hey, Little-Whip, thanks for reading, your input and I'm glad you're staying tuned.

In my own defense:

Trust me, if I talked about 'works' a lot, you would know it...as that's a fascinating body of theology in and of itself. Truly, I've tried to avoid "works" preferring to keep focused on the question of whether or not there is a biblical foundation of absolute guaranteed salvation.

Go back and check and you will see that it all started with my comments re: Apoc 2:11.

“He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He who shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.”---This passage provides us with an entire program for living. Be faithful with an enduring loyalty to the love of Christ. If we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end. Whatever may come whatever may happen, keep the faith no matter how difficult the obstacle, no matter if the ground gives way under one’s feet.


It was my use of the word "If" that started this friendly debate (not argument). KFC wrote,
The part here that I have trouble with biblically is "IF we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end."


Once KFC wrote, Our eternal salvation isn't contingent on our own faithfulness followed by if we have to earn our way....why did Christ die? it was clear that KFC had employed Calvin's doctrine, "Once saved, always saved" and Scripture in an attempt to support that. By writing, "if we have to earn our way", the bibical concept of 'works' was injected into the discussion, (which ironically,she indentified).

KFC---
We're running smack into "works based" vs "Faith alone" theology, and I know which side of the fence you're on. I'm on the other.


To which I responded:
"Works based" vs "Faith ALone" concerns what must we do to be saved...and I join with you in not wanting to go there in this particular discussion.

I thought, based on your saying, "we cannot lose our salvation. It's not contingent on OUR faithfulness", that we are discussing whether or not we are guaranteed Heaven?


KFC is correct, for Catholics, St.James has the final word on the biblical concept of "works".

on May 25, 2007
Lulapilgrim posts:
Once you have accepted Him, you can do anything you want and not lose your salvation... No matter what the person does the remainder of their life---be it living godly or living evilly, their salvation is assured. It makes no difference how one lives or ends their lives.


KFC POSTS: Yes, but if you are truly saved and understand the gift that was given you, you in return are very grateful to God and will not try to offend him. You try to bring glory to him, not shame. It's not like you go off and do what you want. No, it's the beginning of a new life....."I am crucified with Christ, it's no longer I who live but Christ lives in me....


Yes, of most of the "born again" believers that I know, I've seen this to be true. Your point is well taken. God alone can see into everyone's heart.

Throughout this discussion, I've challenged only the "once saved, always saved" doctrine and questioned how that could be used as an excuse for sinful behavior and not "born again" believers.

Your reply starting with 'Yes, but" leads me to ask: how can anyone know his salvation experience was real, that it 'worked'? We know that some will lead a good life after being born again,
and some will lead a bad life. Either way, the doctrine seems nearly useless becasue when reflected upon seriously, it seems to make impossible the very assurance it is supposed to give.

For me as a Catholic, I just find it hard to understand how any one who truly believes in God can at the same time believe their sins immaterial. I just don't understand given all the verses that call the whole notion of the assurance of salvation into question.
on May 25, 2007
Your reply starting with 'Yes, but" leads me to ask: how can anyone know his salvation experience was real, that it 'worked'? We know that some will lead a good life after being born again,


How can one know? THE HS living in us at the moment of our regenerated birth tells us so. He comforts us. He's with us every step of the way. His word assures us this as well. In those times when we're feeling seeds of doubt, we open his word and he makes it clear that we are indeed "sealed" the day we accepted and believed him and his work on the cross. The best way to know is by our own lives. We see the changes he made in our life. There should be change when this happens. That's the biggest testimony a believer has. His own life.

"Therefore if any man be in christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away behold all things are become new." 2 Cor 5:17

Salvation brings change. We are regenerated

Our focus changes. Instead of focusing on self we focus on Christ. Like I said before we die to self and live for Christ.

Paul said this to the Ephesians starting in 2:11

"11Remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12that at that time you were without Christ being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.....18 For through him we both (Jew & Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God.

There's a contrast here. Unbelieving gentiles are 1) without Christ-contrast with v 13. 2)aliens-contrast with v19 3) strangers-contrast with v19 4) without hope-contast with v18 and 5)without God-contrast with v18.

Paul's telling them they are saved thru their belief and have been included into the family of God (19). Once in the family Lula, you don't get kicked out.

.
I've challenged only the "once saved, always saved" doctrine and questioned how that could be used as an excuse for sinful behavior and not "born again" believers


I've only met one person who thought he could do whatever he wanted ...sin at will because he was saved by Grace.

But most Born Again Christians grieve when they find themselves in error or sin because they know how much sin separates us from God. While we still sin, we are not living in habitual sin. Paul even said, "I do what I don't want to do and I don't do what I want to do." Living perfectly is a struggle. As long as we are living in these earthly bodies of flesh the struggle will continue.

Paul said that where "sin abounds grace did much more abound" in Romans 5 and then he devotes the next chapter responding to the question "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" If we know that his grace covers all our sins does that give us free license? All your questions about this should be answered right there in Chap 6 of Romans.








on May 25, 2007
I know neither of you will heed what I have to say here, but these endless, ostentatious, and pedantic bloviations turn the curious away with a bad taste in their mouth and do absolutely nothing in the way of leading others towards Christ.


Well LU, that's not what we're doing here. We're discussing...what's wrong with that? Iron sharpens Iron after all does it not?

Why don't you join us?

I mean this blog IS under the religious section afterall. We're having a "religious" discussion and doing so in a friendly sort of way. If it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, then I don't think I need to tell you what the cure is, now do I?

But you are more than welcome to join us in this discussion.
on May 25, 2007
LULA POSTS:
(3) when one's works are not in accordance with faith, then one's faith is dead and useless.


a workless faith is a dead faith. This faith does not bring others to Christ..so it doesn't save, serve, or survive.

But remember this is works...which is fruit. You can still have crappy fruit or not much fruit and still be saved. Remember I said not to get your fruit and root mixed up?




Yes, I think this is true...so I guess I didn't get my fruit and root mixed up that much, lol!

A FEW POSTS BACK YOU CHARGED ME WITH ELUSIVELY GOING FROM ONE TO ANOTHER VERSE WITH SCRIPTURE. You introduced 1Cor. 3:10-15, not I. This could introduce a whole other ball of wax...I hope not.

Go to 1 Cor 3:10-15 and you'll see an example of what happens to those Christians who have no reward for their works but still receive salvation.....here's the last part of that:

"if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire."

He may go into heaven a bit singed. God will try our works by fire to see what they are made of. Basically God is saying he knows if our works were to bring glory to him or glory to ourselves. This fire which I believe may have something to do with the eyes of Christ himself will reveal which they are.

"his head and his hairs were white like wool as white as snow and his eyes were as a flame of fire." Rev 1:14.


KFC POSTS:
"if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire."

He may go into heaven a bit singed.


On this we differ just a bit.

Catholics believe that by the time we get into the pearly gates our souls are made holy and pure as snow. There is no sign of sin or the singe of sin. 1Cor.3:15, "...he will be saved, but only as through fire", we think St.Paul refers to the fire in Purgatory which does the final purifying our souls. Purgatory is based on 2Mach. 12:39-46; St.Matt 12:31-32; 5:25-26; 1Cor15:29; etc.
On this passage, St.Augustine wrote "Some will be saved through a purifying fire for a long or short period depending on the extent to which they were attached to things which do not endure."

We also have a slightly different interpretation on man's 'work' together with the meaning of fire in v. 10-14 of 1Cor 3:10-14, "According to the commisssion of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 for no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,--13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it becasue it will be revealed with fire. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward (be saved). 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire."

As you know, the Day, St.paul is referring to is the Last Day when Christ will come in glory as Judge to judge the living and the dead.

The fire can be understood in the context of his metaphor of the building. It means that God's judgment is final; that there is no appeal against it becasue just as fire reveals the solidity of the construction, so GOd's judgemenet shows up the actions of each person in their true light. Also, it should not be forgotten that fire usually accompanies the theophanies, that is the special appearances of God, mentioned in Scripture. It is therefore a way of showing that only God--not man can judge hearts and souls of men.

It's also significant that St.Paul when speaking of retribution mentions fire and this is when some Church Fathers, such as St.Augustine, have seen this as a reference to the severity of the punishment meted out in Hell and Purgatory.

V. 14, In describing the reward given to those who work at building up the Church, one thing comes across very clearly. Everyone will be paid according to his works. If good materials have been used, that is, if he was upright and held on, persevered, endured, to the faith, the reward is assured. But if he used defective materials, that is, if he did not have the right intention, or he did not hold on to the faith, then he will not receive his reward.

on May 25, 2007
LULA POSTS:
I stand by what I wrote. The truth is that by Christ’s death we are ALL redeemed ---every person born in this world is redeemed-----


KFC POSTS:

where are you getting this from? What scripture? Was Judas redeemed? Hitler?



To me, redemption and salvation isn't the same thing.

By "all redeemed", I meant Christ died for all, however, not all accepted the fruits of His redemption.

Remember we mentioned St.Peter's unfaithfulness denying Christ 3 timess? With the helping grace which was offered to him he opened his heart, obeyed its promptings and repented of his sin.

Well, Judas was offered grace in the Garden of Gethsemani, but he resisted it, and therefore perished in his sins.

I don't know whether or not Hitler truly repented of his sins before he died.
on May 25, 2007
KFC POSTS:
our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all....


If you say so, ....I totally disagree.
on May 25, 2007
KFC POSTS:
Read Romans. It speaks alot of this. We are justified (once) and sanctified (ongoing). Once justified that's it. It's like being set free. The word is "dikaioo" and means declared righteous, not guilty. It means pardoned with no parole (no conditions). Sanctification is an ongoing process. It's like refining.


I agree that our santification is an ongoing process....however with conditions and some of those are found in those Scriptural passages I cited.
5 Pages1 2 3 4 5