A Letter To Smyrna-The Persecuted Church
Published on May 13, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
John is now instructed to write a letter to the church at Smyrna. This is what was written:

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Smyrna, a town of about 200,000 in John's day was about 35 miles away from Ephesus in Asia Minor founded about three centuries before Christ by Alexander the Great. This big city was next in line along what we've been calling the postal route or circuit of churches with the first being Ephesus.

This city was filled with pagan temples of idolatry. Among them were Cybele, Apollo, Ashlepios, Aphrodite, Zeus and the temple to Rome (Dea Roma) Temple to Tiberuius. The Dea Roma means Goddess of Rome or Roman Goddess.

So we can see this city, a major seaport, was extremely pagan chasing after many gods. There were many roads in and out of this city both physically and spiritually. Smyrna's allegiance to Rome was strong. It was very a very wealthy city, the most prosperous of that area, with a very active and influential Jewish population.

Smyrna was known for its grove trees. These trees produced a gum like substance that was yellowish red or brown in color producing a very aromatic perfume called myrhh. So Smyrna was well known for its myrrh. To extract the perfume one had to crush the plant and squeeze the drippings out of it. Many think of the Church of Smyrna acted as a myrrh plant. This church, faithful to the gospel, was squeezed, crushed and when so produced a sweet smelling aroma to God as a result of all the persecution it would endure. This perfume, we see in the gospels, was used for both Christ's birth and buriel.

Here John writes they are going to die now and in the future as believers as a result of this persecution now and to come. Notice how this is wrapped up tho. Jesus describes himself as one that lived and died as they also will do. He's telling them it's ok. He will be there with them. He's well aware of what's happening to them. He went first and serves as their example.

The word "tribulation" in the Greek is "Thilpsis" and means "crush, press, compress, squeeze, to break."

This church was preaching the word of God in a pagan city of 200,000. They were pressing forward the gospel of Christ and being persecuted for it. We, in this country, have not a clue as to what persecution really is. Oh, we get a taste here and there, but it's really not even close to their affliction. The more we resist compromising with the world the more persecution we get. Here in Smyrna this church refused to compromise. As a result they received both commendation from Christ and persecution from the world.

The source of the persecution back then came through three sources.

1. Roman Government
2. Pagan Idol Worshippers
3. Jewish Zealots

Domitian was the first Emporer off Rome to institute mandatory Emporer worship. It was required law, once a year, to walk into the Temple of Tiberius, stand by the big statue of the Emperor, burn incense to him and say "Caesar is Lord. This was required.

The second source was the idol worshippers. A Christian, resisting all forms of pagan worship would be subject to ridicule and considered an outcast to society. This was especially hard when trying to sell their wares or do any type of business along the streets of Smyrna. Christians would be shunned as being different from the rest of the community. In order to do business a compromise would have to take place.

The third source were the Jewish Zealots. They were very active and influential. They were subservient to the Roman government and by paying tributes to Caesar, Rome allowed them to practice their faith freely without penalty. For a while Christians were protected as well under the banner of Judaism because many knew that Christianity was born of Judaism with Jesus, the Jew as their Messiah. So both Jew and Christian were blended together until Nero started blaming the Christians for things they were not responsible for.

At that time the Jewish zealots separated themselves by saying "we've never accepted these Christians. They are not part of us." Many false reports started up against the Christians and they were greatly targeted and the antaginism between the two faiths grew. The Christians were being watched carefully. Did they worship the Emperor as required by law? Did they participate in the local parades down the city streets? Did they join in their pagan festivities at all? It was very taboo to be Christian.

Here Jesus says he knows their poverty which really means they were beggers. They had nothing in comparison to the community. The Christian in Smyrna was not materially wealthy rather more like a begger for food. These Jews that were outward but not inward Jews were doing the work of Satan.

What is the work of Satan? Satan is a liar and a destroyer. He loves nothing more than to torture, persecute, destroy the Christian. He'll take it as far as he's able. The war between God and Satan is a spiritual one. We are caught in the middle of a great battle. Here in Smyrna you had to be a real Christian to live under these circumstances. Many analogies are drawn in scripture of a soldier in battle for this reason. Today we sang "Onward Christian Soldiers" in church to remember this.

These were the martyrs of the early church. To be a martyr was to be a witness for Christ. Polycarp was considered the 12th martyr of Smyrna. He, a disciple of John, was burned at the stake after being scalded in hot oil on Feb 23, 156. He was very influential and was brought in before the government of Rome to recant his belief in Christ. They wished him to prove his allegience to Rome by burning incense and declaring Caesar as Lord. He said, "I can't, Jesus is my Lord and I shan't say anything else."

He was taken into the middle of the street and killed for all to see. This was a reminder to those citizens what would be done to them if they too dared to go against Rome by following Christ. Rome drove that gaunlet down deep.

Through all of this Jesus says to John not to fear. Yes, Satan is on the warpath against those who dare to follow him. Satan desires that we compromise our speech and actions. We saw that Ephesus lost their first love. Smyrna never did. How else could they go through all this without a deep love for God. Smyrna is one of the two churches that received no condemnation from Christ, the other being the church at Philadelphia.

The greater the persecution, the greater the purity of the church. Here in this church 100% were on board. Those will not stay that are not willing to sacrifice their all. This church was one of sacrifice. They left all behind and paid a dear price for it.

Martin Luther said that persecution is the mark of a true church. Those that are rightly preaching the gospel of Christ will be persecuted to some extent. They are promised a crown of life and will escape the second death.

War is not without cost. We know that. Just look at Iraq. War is not cheap whether we agree or disagree with what's going on in Iraq we can all agree there is a cost involved. Are we, like many soldiers fighting battles all over the world, ready to give up all as a test of our love for God and to further his kingdom? Just mentioning the name of Christ infuriates the world. It's ok to mention God as in the generic sense, but please don't mention Jesus. During the V-Tech memorial many noticed that while Buddah and Mohammed were mentioned no one invoked the name of Jesus. No one. While His name is not politically correct it is biblically correct.

Even today while we don't suffer even the remotest types of persecution those in Smyrna faced we too will face some backlash when and if we dare open our mouths about Christ. We may lose that contract. We may not get that job. We may get fired. We may lose our friends and family members may distanced themselves from us.

Right now HR 1592 was passed by the House and is now working its way to the Senate. If this passes, and it's expected it will, there may be further persecution for the churches here in this country down the road. If you say anything against anyone's sexual orientation or if someone "perceives" that we don't agree with that lifestyle we could receive up to 10 years in prison. If this passes, the government will have authority to reach into the churches and put pastors or SS teachers in prison.

Are we like those in the church of Ephesus that has lost its first love or are we like the suffering church of Smyrna ready and willing to go through whatever it takes to bring forth the gospel of Christ even in the face of adversity? Christ said that one must be born again to enter heaven. If the church was doing what it was meant to do, there would be a whole lot more birthing going on.

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27“And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28“For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29“lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30“saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31“Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33“So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.-Jesus in Luke 14:
"

Comments (Page 2)
5 Pages1 2 3 4  Last
on May 21, 2007
You are correct, our salvation is about baptism and it's about our faith too. In 1St.John 5:4-5 notice the words, our faith.


yes, look at it. He's the one responsible for OUR FAITH. It's not us. "All have gone astray, there is none rightesous no not one." says Paul in Romans. Our works are as filthy rags says God more than once in scripture.

In Romans 4 Paul gives two examples of those that are saved without works...Abraham and David. It's very clear that we are considered righteous apart from works. He imputes (adds to one's account) his son's righteousness to us.

Note that St.Paul includes an important condition: "provided that you remain in His kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1Cor.10:11-12.


NO, NO, No....this is not correct. He's not talking to Christians here. NEVER ever in scripture does it alude that we can LOSE our salvation. Never. I already showed you where Christ said he would lose NONE that Father has entrusted him with.

I don't have "provided that you remain in his kindess." in this passage at all.

Back to 1 Cor 10. Read the whole chapter in context. I think you'll be able to figure it out if you can put your CC commentaries down for a minute. Read v5 which says many of them God was not pleased for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

He's using the nation Israel as an illustration of some who were disapproved. They were idolaters and drunkards. They were not godly to begin with. He's basically saying just because you are going to church, just because you call yourself Christian like our fathers called themselves Jews examine your life. Are you murmuring? Are you immoral? Are you tempting God with your actions? Well if you think you're upright, you may want to re-think yourselves. You're headed for a fall because you are not on solid ground.

Remember who he's speaking to. He's speaking to the Corinthians who had many problems going on. Problems included divisions in the church 1:11, immorality Chap 5; 6:9-20. Aberrant beliefs and practices of an astonishing variety characterized this church. Corinth was noted for everything sinful.

He's not in no way telling godly Christians they better be careful cuz they may lose their salvation. This is nothing but fear that many religious groups put on their people. It's not biblical. The stern warnings in scripture were always reserved for the non-believers not the believers.



on May 21, 2007
This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.


actually this one in Timothy doesn't back you up very well. This is saying that even when we are not faithful he remains faithful. This is one of the best eternal security scriptures out there.

What Timothy was saying was even when we are weak, he remains faithful to us even if we deny him in our weakness. This statement of the consistency of God's character is a strong promise to the believers of the security of his salvation even though he may lose all rewards (1 Cor 3:15).

We don't lose our salvation but we can lose our rewards, the crowns that are promised to us as we do what we were put here to do.

Two examples come to mind quickly. One is Adam and Eve and the other is Peter. All three denied him or rebelled against him. But God remained faithful to them. They had to pay the consequences, yes, but he never took their position in him away from them. Never does he do this. With the nation Israel He was constantly giving them chances over and over again. Now they are paying the consequences as he allows them to be disciplined, but he will once again turn back to them. They have never lost their position in him.

I would like you to quote me one example from scripture where God did such a thing.

Once in the family God doesn't disown us any more than we disown our children for doing badly.
on May 21, 2007
LULA POSTS:
This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.


KFC POSTS:
actually this one in Timothy doesn't back you up very well. This is saying that even when we are not faithful he remains faithful. This is one of the best eternal security scriptures out there.

What Timothy was saying was even when we are weak, he remains faithful to us even if we deny him in our weakness. This statement of the consistency of God's character is a strong promise to the believers of the security of his salvation even though he may lose all rewards (1 Cor 3:15).



On the contrary, St. Timothy does a great job teaching that we do not have an absolute assurance of salvation. Let's look at it.

2Tim 2:11-13, "The saying is sure:
If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful--for He cannot deny Himself."

Note the verses begin with the word, "If". If we do something, i.e. endure or deny Him, then "x" happens as the result. As you can plainly see, the result is not always salvation.

It is as you say, that He will remain faithful to us even if we deny him in our weakness. However, according to Timothy, if we deny Him, He will deny us and that means we will not be with Him in Heaven.

v. 12 deals with the stark choice the Christian has to make in the face of difficulties--endurance or denial of Him.
Now, take this same verse and apply that negatively. If we fail to endure, that is to persevere in love, then we won't reign with Him. Look again above, we spoke of perseverance as evidence of our salvation, just not assurance of it and Timothy bears this out.

Once in the family God doesn't disown us any more than we disown our children for doing badly.


True, God is faithful and waits patiently, like the father of the progidal son, for our return to Him. He gives us all that we need to return our infidelity to His fidelty.

However, when we sin and do not repent and change our evil ways, we separate ourselves from God; we condemn ourselves. This is when v. 11 kicks in. It says if we died with Him. Well, if we die in a state of unrepentant sin, then we died without Him, and so we shall not reign with Him. If we die unrepentant and without Him, then we forfeit our salvation. Or, in the case of Christ's Second Coming when He will judge the living and the dead---if we are unrepentant at the moment that He comes again, then we will forfeit our salvation.




on May 21, 2007
KFC POSTS:
Two examples come to mind quickly. One is Adam and Eve and the other is Peter. All three denied him or rebelled against him. But God remained faithful to them. They had to pay the consequences, yes, but he never took their position in him away from them. Never does he do this.


Wait a minute. Adam and Eve both sinned, yes. But what happened after this? As I read it, they were ashamed of themselves for what they had done. They didn't remain hardened in their sin, rather they confessed their guilt and repented of it. God punishes man in mercy and imposes temporal punishment on him so as to save his eternal soul.

St.Peter's sin was a grevious one. Out of fear of man, St.Peter lied 3 times and denied his faith. The sin of St.Peter grew and became more grevious every time he committed it. He didn't sin from malice,but from weakness and panic and he didn't lose his faith even though he outwardly denied it. St.Peter fell so hard becasue he didn't avoid the occasion of sin. He would not have fallen so low if he had left the company of the enemies of Christ.

Our Lord had said to him a short time before this when they were walking up the MOunt of Olives "Without me you can do nothing." St.Peter fell becasue of over self-confidence and by neglecting our Lord's exhortation, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

This all should be a warning to us to avoid bad companions and the occasion of sin, to remember our weaknesses and not to trust too much in ourselves...and most to ask humbly for the assistance of grace whenever we find ourselves in a weak moment. After all, did not our Lord teach us to pray, "Lead us not into temptation"?

The conversion of St.Peter was the work of grace of our Lord Jesus. It was at the moment when He looked upon his unfaithful Apostle that gave St.Peter the light of saving grace to see how greviously he had sinned. He opened his heart to it, obeyed its promptings and was grieved so much that bitter tears of contrition fell and he was sorry purely becasue he had offended his Lord and because his sin had increased His suffering. So St.Peter repented of his sin.
on May 21, 2007
yes, I don't disagree with anything in your last posting Lula. What I'm saying is that a Christian (true one) will always do what Peter did. The reason for this is as you said very well..


The conversion of St.Peter was the work of grace of our Lord Jesus


that's it in a nutshell. So as Christians we may fail, we may fall, we may be weak but we are His. We will not shake our fist at God in rebellion. Those that do were never Christians in the first place. So they didn't lose their salvation. They never had it in the first place.

Just like our children are ours. They may fail us. They may be weak in their honoring and loving us but that doesn't make them any less our own children.
on May 21, 2007
Note the verses begin with the word, "If". If we do something, i.e. endure or deny Him, then "x" happens as the result. As you can plainly see, the result is not always salvation.

It is as you say, that He will remain faithful to us even if we deny him in our weakness. However, according to Timothy, if we deny Him, He will deny us and that means we will not be with Him in Heaven.


yes, but this is speaking of non Christians. A Christian is not going to deny God not in the sense as in here. This denial here is one that leads to hell. They never were regenerated. There is no becoming a Christian and then backing out. It doesn't even remotely say that here. Those who deny are professing people who will in turn be disowned by Him (Matt 10:33 2 John 9).

However, when we sin and do not repent and change our evil ways, we separate ourselves from God; we condemn ourselves. This is when v. 11 kicks in. It says if we died with Him. Well, if we die in a state of unrepentant sin, then we died without Him, and so we shall not reign with Him. If we die unrepentant and without Him, then we forfeit our salvation. Or, in the case of Christ's Second Coming when He will judge the living and the dead---if we are unrepentant at the moment that He comes again, then we will forfeit our salvation.


Yes when we do these things the relationship suffers...but we don't ever lose our salvation. When Jesus died, he died for all our sins, past, present and future. When it says die with him it's talking about living for him now and dying to self. It has nothing to do with that last minute of death which is what I'm thinking you're thinking? Not at all. It's death to the world...alive to Christ.

Paul said in Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ lives in me and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."

Read Romans. It speaks alot of this. We are justified (once) and sanctified (ongoing). Once justified that's it. It's like being set free. The word is "dikaioo" and means declared righteous, not guilty. It means pardoned with no parole (no conditions). Sanctification is an ongoing process. It's like refining.

"if the son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:36

This whole dying unrepentent again....is for the nonChristian, not the Christian. A Christian may have unrepentent sin even unknowingly. If she/he dies, he doesn't go to hell Lula. He is safe and secure in Christ.

I believe you have your fruit and root mixed up here Lula. They are two completly diff things. One is a one time deal (being rooted) and the other is ongoing (being fruitful).

Just like your tree in the backyard. Some years it gives good fruit and other times not so good. You don't tear down the tree...you prune it so it will bear more fruit the next time.




on May 22, 2007

This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.

Yes, Scripture makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation that God will be true to His word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to Him (1St.John 3:19-24), but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.

In Romans 11: 22-23, St.Paul said to the Christians, "See, then, the goodness and severity of God: severity to those who are fallen; but GOd's goodness to you, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise, you too, will be cut off". Also St.Matt.18:21-35; 1Cor.15:1-2, 2St.Peter 2:20-21.

Note that St.Paul includes an important condition: "if thou abide in goodness" He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns the Corinthians, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1Cor.10:11-12. [/quote]


NO, NO, No....this is not correct. He's not talking to Christians here. NEVER ever in scripture does it alude that we can LOSE our salvation. Never. I already showed you where Christ said he would lose NONE that Father has entrusted him with.


Remember who he's speaking to. He's speaking to the Corinthians who had many problems going on. Problems included divisions in the church 1:11, immorality Chap 5; 6:9-20. Aberrant beliefs and practices of an astonishing variety characterized this church. Corinth was noted for everything sinful.

He's not in no way telling godly Christians they better be careful cuz they may lose their salvation. ...



Yes, Scripture makes it clear that Christians that God will be true to His word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to Him (1St.John 3:19-24), but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.

I think that 2Tim 2:11-13 and Roman 11:22-23 are meant for everyone of us to heed not just non-CHristians. Whoever believes in Christ must accept every single thing He taught, and try to fulfill what He commanded. For example, He said, "Unless your justice abound more than the Scribes and the Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." St.Matt.5:20. It seems to me that's a good lesson for us to be aware of. It applies to us today. ONe could believe in Christ, yet make no effort to aquire the prescribed justice. That is why Christ said, "Not every one who cries" 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven." 7:21.

It is evident that from these passages that all professed baptized, born again Christians are not guaranteed Heaven. It is a mistake to attach an unconditional and absolute sense of salvation to all Christians, regardless of how they live or in the state of their soul when they die.


on May 22, 2007
but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.


I disagree. It's all over the place. You still haven't answered my question.

If we are to "earn" our way to heaven, why did Christ have to die?

Christ said....you must be born again.

Once born again, how do you get unborn?

It's impossible.

There's a simple plan for sinful man. It goes like this:

We are guilty
Our guilt earned us death
Christ died in our place
We admit we are guilty
We trust that Christ was punished in our place
We are declared "not guilty."
That's it!!

How can I lose a gift that Christ gave to me? Since Salvation is a gift from God, is he going to take it back if I'm not GOOD ENOUGH? How can I lose his payment for sin? Can God declare me guilty after he has already declared me not guilty?

From the historical vantage point of the Cross all of our sins were YET to be committed. If He died for one of them He died for all of them. He took upon Himself every single one of our sins. What is going to cause God to reverse his verdict of not guilty? NOT A THING!

Think about this:

If Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost, and yet we can somehow become unsaved and therefore undo what Christ came to do, would it not be wise for God to take us on to heaven the moment we are saved in order to insure we make it? Isn't it unnecessarily risky to force us to stay here?

Hate to tell ya Lula, but this dangerous doctrine comes from the pit of hell. God wants us to be safe and secure in him. Satan, our enemy is a liar and seeks nothing more than to sow seeds of doubt in our minds. Look what he said to Adam and Eve about the goodness of God. He deceived them also with his cunning untrue words about God.

The whole discussion boils down to this one question, Was the blood of Christ adequate? Satan says no. It's blasphemy to say so.

I guess you haven't read Hebrews yet because this book is filled with scripture that shows we have eternal security in our great HP.



on May 22, 2007
He said, "Unless your justice abound more than the Scribes and the Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." St.Matt.5:20. It seems to me that's a good lesson for us to be aware of.


no, what he was saying was, and the people understood clearly, that this is impossible. The Pharisees were "the godly ones." How could the simple people be more pius than them? It was an impossible thought. Scripture is very clear....there is no one righteous none. In Isaiah it says our rightesousness is like filthy rags. Even the best of us cannot enter heaven. It's only by Christ's blood are we cleansed. Then we are declared righteous not for what we have done, but all because of what Christ has done for us.

ONe could believe in Christ, yet make no effort to aquire the prescribed justice. That is why Christ said, "Not every one who cries" 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven." 7:21


no, what he's saying in that verse is there will be many WORKING their way in Lula just like you're saying and they will be found guilty anyway. Their works were not good enough. They never are good enough. We cannot do anything good enough to get into heaven. They believed in Christ maybe...so don't the demons. That means nothing. They didn't think Christ's atonement was good enough so they "added" their own works thinking that would gain them entrance only to find out that they were wrong. This is the saddest verse in all of scripture I believe.

Think about this:

Does it make any sense to say that salvation is offered as a solution for our sin and then turn around and teach that salvation can be taken away because of our sin as well?

on May 23, 2007

Does it make any sense to say that salvation is offered as a solution for our sin and then turn around and teach that salvation can be taken away because of our sin as well?




Catholic doctrine teaches that Christ died for the purpose of saving sinners. But note this. Christ did not die to save sinners unconditionally, as if His death means that all sinners are necessarily saved. His death provides salvation for all who are willing to comply with the conditions laid down by Himself.

Did Christ die for you and me and each one of us personally? Yes, He did. But He didn't die to force salvation upon anybody. He did die to offer the means of salvation to all mankind. In that sense, His death will avail us of salvation if we comply with the conditions that He prescribed. Look at it this way. It is as if you were in great debt and about to lose everything and I deposited money in the bank to cover that and a checkbook for you to draw the money out. I could say that I had done enough to save you from becoming homeless. But if you refused to use the checks, or walk to the bank, despising my arrangements, you would not be saved from homelessness. That would be your own fault, and no proof that my provision for you was not efficacious in itself.

Christ did not die for sinners so they could go on being sinners, yet be sure of salvation in spite of themselves. People who are still living have not been saved by Christ. Yes, He has paid the price necessary for their salvation, if they choose to avail themselves of it. Those baptized, born again Christians who are actually sinners in grave matters are not availing themselves of it at present and if they die without repenting of it, they will not be saved at all. Those sinners who do abandon their sins, repenting of them, and die in a state of such repentance, appealing to Christ for salvation, will be saved by Him from Hell.
on May 23, 2007
Christ did not die for sinners so they could go on being sinners, yet be sure of salvation in spite of themselves.


So does this mean you are not a sinner? Or does it mean you sin but then confess it? Which still makes you a sinner right? Just a confessed one.

Like the poor, sin will always be with us. In my own life God uses it to grow me and teach me things. But according to your dogma if I die in the learning process I am doomed.

Christians who are actually sinners in grave matters are not availing themselves of it at present and if they die without repenting of it, they will not be saved at all.


Grave matters. Sounds serious. What are they? Did Jesus have a list of grave matters? I search my Bible and can't find Him classifying them except to say, sin is sin (rebellion against God). I CAN find many man made lists though.

For example, didn't Jesus say lusting in your heart is adultery? So if a married female Christian is driving down the road and hears about a new movie by Brad Pitt...and then she starts thinking of him, kissing him, whatever and then WHAM a semi tractor trailer smashed into her mini van and she's dead.

She didn't get a chance to confess that adultry...so I guess she's going to hell.

That makes Jesus like the Muslim God doesn't it.....if you're good enough, if you try hard enough, and if God isn't having a bad day, you will make it to heaven.

Saying Christ's death wasn't enough to get me where He wants me is spitting on his sacrifice. To think there is *anything* I could do to earn an eternity in heaven is illogical. Because if I could do it, so could everyone else. Then we really didn't need Jesus did we?

Not.

on May 23, 2007
LULAPILGRIM POSTS:

“He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He who shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.”---This passage provides us with an entire program for living. Be faithful with an enduring loyalty to the love of Christ. If we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end. Whatever may come whatever may happen, keep the faith no matter how difficult the obstacle, no matter if the ground gives way under one’s feet. [/quote]

KFC POSTS:
The part here that I have trouble with biblically is "IF we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end."


We cannot lose our salvation. It's not contingent on OUR faithfulness. It's contingent on his and we know he's always faithful. Remember Jesus said, You did not chose me, I chose you.

It's not about us being overcomers which is what you're referring to here. It's about his overcoming for us.


So all born again Christians are called overcomers. It's because we are identififed with Christ who did the work. He overcame the world for us. We don't have to. We just need to endure to the end as you said but it's not for salvation. That's already secured.


LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
Yet, your interpretation of v. 11 seems to be that it's not about us being overcomers...it's about His overcoming for us. So, would you explain v. 11 by answering what does Christ mean and who was He referring to when He says, "He who shall overcome" becasue He sure isn't talking about Himself overcoming for us?

"He who shall overcome"---Overcome what?


KFC POSTS:

I explained it already Lula....he that overcomes is he that is born of God. So he that is born of God will not see the second death. We have overcome the world by being identified with Christ.

It all goes back to baptism.


If they should fall or succomb, he is NOT going to condemn them.


Even tho it may result in death, he's assuring them they will not see the second death because they are overcomers (born again believers).


LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.

Yes, Scripture makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation that God will be true to His word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to Him (1St.John 3:19-24), but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.

St.Paul said to the Christians, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in His kindness, otherwise, you too, will be cut off" Rom.11:22-23; St.Matt.18:21-35; 1Cor.15:1-2, 2St.Peter 2:20-21.

Note that St.Paul includes an important condition: "provided that you remain in His kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1Cor.10:11-12.


KFC POSTS:
NO, NO, No....this is not correct. He's not talking to Christians here. NEVER ever in scripture does it alude that we can LOSE our salvation. Never. I already showed you where Christ said he would lose NONE that Father has entrusted him with.



He's not in no way telling godly Christians they better be careful cuz they may lose their salvation. This is nothing but fear that many religious groups put on their people. It's not biblical. The stern warnings in scripture were always reserved for the non-believers not the believers.


This whole dying unrepentent again....is for the nonChristian, not the Christian. A Christian may have unrepentent sin even unknowingly. If she/he dies, he doesn't go to hell Lula. He is safe and secure in Christ.



So far, KFC, I have pointed out the Scriptural passages of Romans 11:13-22, 2Tim. 2:11-13; St.Matt. 5:20 and 7:21 which all clearly teach the truth that Christians can lose their salvation. You, in your well-meaning defense of Calvin’s doctrine, “once saved, always saved” (OSAS), respond to these passages every time by saying, “no, no, he was saying this or that...”. In essence you are interpreting Scripture making that fit with Calvin’s doctrine of OSAS.

Well, here are a few more passages for your consideration. From Hebrews 10: 19-31, St.Paul admonishes the early Christians to purity of heart, to persevere in faith they received at Baptism, not to neglect attending Christian assembly daily or weekly (Acts.2:46; 20:7) where they will listen to the word of God, take part in the Eucharist (1Cor.16: 1-2), offer thanksgiving and receive encouraging hope in the Second Coming of our Lord. St.Paul ends by telling them there will be no forgiveness and no salvation for those who persist in committing sins.

19 “Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which He opened for us through the curtain, that is , through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day draw near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of Judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the Blood of the Covenant by which He was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “the Lord will judge his people” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

V. 26-31, Here St.Paul is referring to those Christians who have already received the “knowledge of the truth” (are born again through Baptism or ‘saved” Christians) and who are fallen into deliberate sin. This passage unequivocally means that no part of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice can help people in this position because they have deliberately and explicitly rejected Redemption and salvation. They can all look forward to just condemnation when Christ comes to judge them and punishment by fire. The fire referred to here has to do not only with God’s fury, but with eternal torment St.Mark 9:47-49; The Apoc. 11:5.

To emphasize the gravity of grievous sin which outrages the Holy Spirit, profanes the redeeming sacrifice of Christ and shows contempt for the very Son of God, St. Paul recalls that under the Mosaic law there were certain sins which on the evidence of 2 or 3 witnesses merited capital punishment. Deut. 19:15-21. This was the case with fully conscious and deliberate and scandalous sins (Num 15:30-31) blasphemy (Lev. 24:13-16, adultery, incest, sodomy, murder, idolatry, and prophecy in the name of other gods. He said if sinners who committed such sins did not deserve “remission”, obstinate apostates deserve it less.

V. 31, This verse rounds off an entire passage designed to inspire horror of deliberate grave sin and to encourage Christians to have a holy fear of God. This fear, includes fear of eternal punishment, and a sense of shame at the moral ugliness of sin, which are characteristics of attrition. But it can also include other dispositions which are proper to contrition, to the extent that one’s fear is motivated by a sense of the outrage done to Christ, who suffered out of love for us; in which case love and fear are linked; in fact, the right kind of fear is filial fear, that of someone who is afraid of offending his father. Sorrow for having offended our heavenly Father is one of the key features of the Law of Christ.

The following is St.Thomas Aquinas teaching on this: “There are 2 motives which lead a person to do good and avoid evil. The first is fear. The motive that first leads a person to avoid sin is the thought of the pains of hell and the Last Judgment. ... It is true that a person who refrains from sinning simply out of fear is not just; but that is where his justification begins. That is how the Low of Moses works to draw people away from sin and lead them to do good...But this method of fear is inadequate; the law promulgated by Moses was inadequate. It relied on that kind of fear to frustrate sin; although it did discourage a person from actually committing sin, it failed to purify his intentions. There is however, another way to draw people away from sin and encourage them to act rightly--the way of love. That is the way followed by the Law of Christ, that is the Law of the Gospel, which is a law of love.”

“Timor Domini sanctus”. The fear of God is holy. Fear which is the veneration of a son for his Father, never a servile fear, for your Father-God is not a tryant.”

Here’s another lesson from 2St.Peter 2:20-22,

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness' than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the proverb. The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”

Here, St.Peter uses 2 proverbs to show the serious situation of those who return to a life of sin after knowing the saving teaching of Christ. These verses can apply to false teachers as well as to those they lead astray. The last state has become worse for them than the first” is the same as our Lord said about someone who after having the devil cast out of him fell under his sway once more. The reference to the dog concerns those who know they sin, but won’t give them up (perhaps because they think that sinning doesn’t matter, OSAS will kick in?). A sow when she rolls in the mud comes out filthier than ever. So too a person who is sorry for his sin, but doesn’t give it up becoming all the more guilty of a greater fault.

Ands let’s not forget the Lord’s own words in the Gospels. In the parable of the Unforgiving Servant, He makes it very clear that one can gain salvation and then forfeit it through wicked actions and remaining unrepentant about sinning St.Matt. 18:21-35. This passage is the perfect parallel for the biblical teaching on salvation. The servant who owes money is analogous to the guilty sinner--you and me. He pleads for mercy to the master how owes the money (who is analogous to God). Having pity on the man, his financial burden lifted (analogous to God forgiving our sins when we repent). However, because the first man acted wickedly toward the second man who only owed him a very small sum, the master reinstated the entire debt. This chilling part is analogous to what happens when a baptized, born again Christian--you and me, refuses to live according to God’s commandments St.John 13:34.

Take our Lord’s final comment v. 35 which points out one can lose his salvation. “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” In plain language, God is going to punish us for our bad works (sins) and reward us for our good works (obedience for His sake). Although there is nothing we can do to earn salvation (and yes, this is and always has been Catholic teaching), Scripture is clear that our faith-and love-filled acts of obedience to Christ are meritorious and pleasing in God’s eyes and He will keep His promise as per The Apoc. 2:2:11; Rom. 11:22-23; 2Tim. 2:11-13, etc. and reward us for them with eternal life. (Additional passages that show a believer/Christian can lose his salvation are Ex. 32:32-33; (cf. Rom.9:3); Ezek 3:20-21; St.Matt24:13; Rom. 5:2, 8:25, 1Cor. 9:27; Phil 2:12; The Apoc 22:19).

As a matter of fact, every book in Sacred Scripture in some way or other suspends the outcome of our eternal destiny based on the duration and the degree of our faith and obedience to God’s will for His sake. Scripture testifies that a believer can fall from salvation he once possessed.

KFC, you say that salvation is a one time event. Redemption and salvation are telescoped together, that Jesus’ death excludes any possibility of eternal punishment for those who “accept Jesus” as their “personal Savior”. You repent, accept Jesus, say the sinner’s prayer, and you are “saved”. It’s a done deal, no matter what happens in the person’s future life from that point on---he’s been “saved” and absolutely assured of getting into heaven when he dies. Once you have accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, you can do anything you want and not lose your salvation has sent people to hell. Couldn’t one justify stealing, cheating on his spouse or on a test in school, or even murder since he feels that no sin, past, present or future can cut him off from God’s saving grace?

Calvin’s OSAS doctrine that one cannot lose his salvation gives a false sense of security and imho, that’s a serious endangerment to those who embrace it. Can you not see this as well?

As we have seen, Scripture doesn’t teach this notion of being “once saved, always saved”. If one turns to a life of unrepentant sin after once being saved by grace, he can lose his salvation. If he dies in this state, he will go to hell. St.Paul said, ‘The wages of sin is death.”

Because of Christ’s work of Redemption all have what is called a moral assurance of salvation, though not an absolute one. We can trust that Christ will never go back on His promise of eternal life for those who love Him. It is we ourselves who are quite capable of throwing away His love and turn away from Him falling and remaining in sin and ruining our opportunity for salvation.

When I am asked if I’ve been saved, my response is a biblical one. I have been redeemed and saved by God’s grace through faith. I am being saved and am, just as St.Paul, working out my salvation with fear and trembling. My salvation now is nearer now than it was yesterday and trusting solely in God’s grace, I pray that I will be saved by remaining in the state of grace and friendship with Him until the end of my life or until His Second Coming whichever comes first.
on May 23, 2007
KFC POSTS:

We are not saved by our good works. We are saved to DO good works. Our works do not save us.


LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.


KFC POSTS: I disagree. It's all over the place. You still haven't answered my question.

If we are to "earn" our way to heaven, why did Christ have to die?



You have connected works with the question of whether or not we have absolute assurance of Heaven. I’m not sure if, by these remarks, you are inferring that I believe good works somehow “earns” our way to heaven or not.

It’s my understanding that John Calvin accused the “papists” of teaching “works righteousness” ---that by doing good works one can earn his way into heaven. This erroneous allegation may have been handed down to you through Protestant oral tradition. In any event, the CC does not now teach nor has she ever taught a doctrine of salvation based on works alone or “works righteousness”.

In fact, the notion of someone earning salvation is a heresy the Catholic Chruch has repeatedly condemned. The Pelagian heresy was condemned by the Council of Carthage in 416 and again in 418.

The Church has always upheld the apostolic teaching that we are saved by grace through faith. Grace empowers us to have faith and faith leads us to do good works. Everyone is offered the free gift of grace, but not all will have faith. Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us to the intimacy of the life of the Blessed Trinity. By Baptism, we participate in the grace of Christ. So we look to God not ourselves as the perfector and author of our salvation.

The only time that we know for sure that we are saved is when we actually enter into our Lord’s presence in Heaven for all eternity.
But the Lord doesn’t desire that we remain passive or inert in this process of our justification, sanctification and (hopefully) eventual salvation. He makes us His cooperators in this process. Let’s follow this through. In Ephesians 2, St.Paul said that our faith is a gift from God. Faith is God’s instrument by which we receive and maintain the grace of our salvation, but notice what this entails. Our faith in Christ is a gift, but yet it is we who must exercise that faith in order for it to be efficacious. Or, to say it differently---God does not have faith in Himself for us. We are the ones who have been enabled by His grace to have faith in Him...and that is something we ‘do’...and it is in that sense, a ‘work’.

Scripture tells us that God’s grace is free to us, but we are called and enabled by Him to make use of that grace. I don’t mean in some bartering way, like I do this; you do that. Rather, as His adopted sons and daughters who are now able to live out our faith by doing what God commands us.

The Church teaches the same as the Apostles did. Namely, that we are all called to have faith in Christ and to be obedient to His commands. Being obedient to Christ’s commands is just as important as coming to Christ and believing in Him. One without the other doesn’t get it. “Why do you call me Lord, Lord but do not do what I tell you?” St.Luke 6:46. Scripture points out that it’s futile for the one who claims that Christ is his Lord and Savior but who fails to act on that belief. It’s the true believer, the enduring, persevering, faithful believer, the authentic disciple of Christ who “comes to me and hears my words and does them.” 6:47.

Consider this reminder from our Lord. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” St.John 15:9-10.

It is upon this Scripture and many others that the Church teaches that in order to go to heaven, one must die in the state of grace. Notice that the Lord stipulates that one will abide in His love, IF one keeps His commandments. The reverse must be equally true. If one refuses to keep His commandments, , then one will not abide in His love. And following that through, if one doesn’t abide in His love--and die unrepentant in that tragic state---one won’t be saved.

Salvation is a free gift of God for all, though only some will choose to embrace that gift of grace, repent and live out their faith through obedience to Christ (Rom. 6:23; Titus 2:13-14; Eph. 2:8-9), not by their own useless “righteous” deeds (Titus 3:5; Heb. 6:1) but out of love for Christ, animated by His grace. “I can do all things through him that strengthens me”. (Phil 4:13). And finally, St.John said, “little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he who is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil.” 1St.John 3:7-8.

Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.
on May 23, 2007
His death provides salvation for all who are willing to comply with the conditions laid down by Himself.


so, let me get this straight....we need to add to what he did on the cross? He didn't do it good enough? So when he said the work of redemption was finished...it really wasn't? As Tova said....blasphemy comes to mind here.

Christ did not die for sinners so they could go on being sinners, yet be sure of salvation in spite of themselves. People who are still living have not been saved by Christ. Yes, He has paid the price necessary for their salvation, if they choose to avail themselves of it. Those baptized, born again Christians who are actually sinners in grave matters are not availing themselves of it at present and if they die without repenting of it, they will not be saved at all. Those sinners who do abandon their sins, repenting of them, and die in a state of such repentance, appealing to Christ for salvation, will be saved by Him from Hell.


to put this bluntly Lula. This is nothing more than fear taught by the CC. I understand this fear teaching because I grew up with it all around me. It was a way to control the masses. Many many went to their graves believing this so they wouldn't dare leave the Holy CC. It doesn't come from scripture. Only just a quick search of scripture and you'd see that God whose greatest attribute is love more than we can even imagine is not standing over us waiting for us to screw up.

Put this into perspective. Suppose you and your child had a tiff. He then goes off and gets killed before you make ammends....does he cease being your child? Do you erase him from your memory? Curse him? Just desserts? God loves us much much more than we love even our very own children. He expects us to mess up. Our flesh and spirit are at war as long as we carry these earthly bodies.

What do you know about "sealing" in the scripture? Look at Eph 1.

The Father Chooses:

"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." v4

The Son Redeems:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
." v7

The HS Seals:

"In whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy spirit of promise." v13

"Sealed" is "sphragizo" is from the noun "sphragis" a "seal" or signet". This mark (with a seal) is a means of identification...so that the mark which denotes ownership also carries with it the protection of the owner.

The dominant idea of a seal is that it was a mark of ownership. When a person surrenders himself completely to Christ, to belong wholly to Him and no longer to be his own property, then he is sealed with the HS as a sign that he belongs no more to himself but to God.

This seal, unbroken remains a token of safety. The HS is like a deposit or downpayment on our inheritance....look at V14:

"Which is the ernest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of his glory."

The presence of this spirit is God's pledge that our salvation will be consummated.

You actually said it well yourself when you said:

The conversion of St.Peter was the work of grace of our Lord Jesus

We are saved by grace thru faith, and not of works least we should boast.









on May 23, 2007
So far, KFC, I have pointed out the Scriptural passages of Romans 11:13-22, 2Tim. 2:11-13; St.Matt. 5:20 and 7:21 which all clearly teach the truth that Christians can lose their salvation


And I've answered them. None of the above verses speak of a Christian losing his salvation. None. You didn't answer the question. How does one become unborn?

Let's make this simple. I've already mentioned this. What did Jesus mean when he said this....

"And this is the Father's will which has sent me that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me that EVERY ONE which sees the Son and believes on him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day"


You skipped over this as well. When it gets hard Lula you play the elusive game. You move onto other scripture. Everything in scripture on salvation hinges on belief. That's it. Read John 3:16. Read Acts 4:12. It all comes down to one thing...BELIEF.

I absolutely believe that it's the Father's will to preserve those who come to Him.

"Being confident of this very thing that He which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil 1:6

God began, God will continue His good work of grace in me until the day that Jesus comes.

TOVA......  
5 Pages1 2 3 4  Last