So what's the solution?

i am sorry KFC, but you really said few things about GOD that i have to take issue with. however, it is not my intention to get into a round about discussion. So would you please tell me, are you really serious about searching for the truth or you are set in your ways and regardless of the evidence and logic you are not willing to change your understanding?

based in your answer, we can have a reasonable discussion. or just leave at that.

Thanks in advance for answering that question.

i am sorry KFC, but you really said few things about GOD that i have to take issue with

I'm just curious what that would be?

So would you please tell me, are you really serious about searching for the truth or you are set in your ways and regardless of the evidence and logic you are not willing to change your understanding?

I am a truth seeker no matter where it leads me . It's not opinion I'm after, mine or anybody else's when it comes to the truth. I just want the truth above all.

I believe that Jesus is not only the solution...he's the truth and I don't say that lightly. To believe otherwise we'd have to call him a liar.

A perfect environment wouldn't have satan in it, would it?



But no knowledge of good and evil to tell them that disobeying was wrong.



No, that's false. Satan was in the garden. God allowed Satan to be there. Any imperfection is a result of that.



The Christian equivalent of the PETA people, or the peace-at-all-costs people, and anyone else who believes that the world is naturally filled with 'wrongness', and that our default state is morally wrong. People who can't live in their environment without seeing it as evil are deranged. Period.

It's just a way for maladjusted people to feel normal, when the world is telling them that they aren't. We know what to call it when someone says "It's not me that's crazy, it's the rest of the world that's crazy." YOU know you are Napoleon, so it's the rest of mankind that is delusional. Same thing, different topic.

Even if you take the Garden story at face value, do you honestly think that God would want us to all sit around in the buff in the boring old garden all day?

No way, José.

This statement represents the fatal flaw in the Eden myth. If one accepts the fact that God is all knowing, and knows everything past, present, and future, then God would have already known what Adam and Eve were going to do. Yet he created the situation anyway, knowing full well what would happen. Hardly fair, is it? I'd say that's quite unfair, contrived, and is basically a set up.

So, for those who take the bible literally God is a prankster who creates a situation where He knows ahead of time that the people involved are going to fail. You're right, certain views of Christianity certainly don't present a fair God, do they?

Satan is harmless if we don't mess with him. He has no power over me or you unless we let him. You've heard this: "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world."

or how about this:

"Resist the devil and he will flee."

Was that done by Eve?



hey, I imagine they had perfect bodies....who wouldn't want to show that off?



yes, I would agree, you would see it that way. But God had a plan and a purpose from Day 1 to have a people to love and be loved of their own free will. He had to test their love for him. An untested love is no love at all. He knew exactly what they would do, and that's why he provided a Savior before this even happened. Later in scripture we read that the Savior was predestined from the beginning of the earth. Yes, God did know.



Just because he knows means what? He's bad? If you knew ahead of time that something was going to happen does that make you bad just for knowing? He did warn them remember? They didn't listen. So who's to fault? God? Satan? or Adam and Eve? Did the day of no accountability start right here?

Exactly why? If He knows everything past, present, and future He already knew what they would do so the test itself is both invalid and pointless. I fully understand the literal viewpoint that the savior was predestined from the beginning, but the literal view of the Eden story simply doesn't hold up to logic in so many ways.

Truth, real truth, will hold up to critical and logical examination. The Eden story fails that test. Any real seeker of truth would have to acknowledge this obvious fact. Either one is sincere is seeking truth, or is a zealot who ignores logic and critical thinking. The Eden story is nothing more than a myth created by men to explain the origins of humanity. This doesn't invalidate God at all, but does make the difference between intelligent faith and blind zealotry.

Did Job mess with him? I think you are wrong. I think the biblical description of Satan implies that he has no power unless GOD gives it to him.

The fact is the Bible states plainly that the garden had the devil in it. No one can say it was perfect.

he knows, but we didn't. Now we do. We know how unlike God we really are. We can never be "as god" so said the snake. Eve didn't know that but now we do. There's going to come to a point in time when we will not challenge God's laws because we'll know exactly where we've been. We'll put God in his rightful place and leave him there not willing to usurp him in favor of ourselves.




exactly. That's why I'm on this side now. Much thought and logic went into this.




How so?



acknowledge what Mason? You gave me no facts, just opinion so far.



hahahah see I say the same about evolution. The Atheists needed something to explain away God. And the creation story was here long before Darwin. (I know, I know Baker, Darwin wasn't the first...but he wasn't off by much...LOL).

No, the fact is that the Eden story is simply illogical. You can twist and turn around it all you like but the fact is that it simply isn't logical. Logic is objective and opinion has no effect upon it. Everything you have tried to use as a counter argument is pure opinion without any fact at all.

It's sad that someone who claims to be a seeker of real truth can't think objectively.

No, the fact is that the Eden story is simply illogical

Why is it illogical Mason?

You can twist and turn around it all you like but the fact is that it simply isn't logical.

why? What am I twisting? I'm reading it as literal. I'm twisting nothing.

Logic is objective and opinion has no effect upon it

ok, I have no problem with that.

Everything you have tried to use as a counter argument is pure opinion without any fact at all.

well if that's true, then it's alot of people's opinion. Many very learned scholars believe this to be true. So it's all our opinions then? Also, Jesus quoted Genesis and gave it credibility. Was he illogical too? If so, aren't I in good company?

It's sad that someone who claims to be a seeker of real truth can't think objectively.

I AM thinking logically, that's what I keep trying to tell you. The logic has brought me here.

And there were other stories before your Biblical creation story was written down. Egypt worshiped other gods, and Moses dealt with the Pharaoh before he wrote the Torah, right? Anyone would obviously claim that their creation story came first, it is a CREATION story, after all.

He also said "I am the door". Was he saying that he was made of wood and had hinges? After all, if one is going to take the bible literally one can't pick and choose.

You are trying to use twisted logic to justify taking the Eden myth as a factual, literal account and it simply doesn't hold up. I've already stated why it isn't logical and will not repeat myself. You can easily go back and re-read what I already typed. The "untested love" thing simply doesn't make sense when one considers an omniscient God. There actually is a response that would make far more sense, and is explained more than once in the bible, but you have totally failed to hit upon it. Baker has even hinted at it a couple of times but you have totally missed it. You are certainly not thinking logically, you are thinking like a blind zealot which is all I am really trying to point out to you although I doubt that you will see it.

Anyone would obviously claim that their creation story came first, it is a CREATION story, after all.

hahaha, ya, that's true isn't it? Creation comes first. Has to.

He also said "I am the door". Was he saying that he was made of wood and had hinges? After all, if one is going to take the bible literally one can't pick and choose.

Mason, have you ever heard me say....one of the principles of exegeting scripture is........if it makes sense, seek no other sense?"
The bible is both symbolic and literal. We use examples everyday in our language that we don't take literally like.....I'm so hungry I could eat a bear. It's raining cats and dogs.....etc. I'm sure you can think of some.

You are trying to use twisted logic to justify taking the Eden myth as a factual, literal account and it simply doesn't hold up. I've already stated why it isn't logical and will not repeat myself

but you haven't.....you've given me NO facts. Just the fact that you call it a myth shows me you have presupposed opinion without thoroughly checking the facts. Be honest with me Mason. Have you ever REALLY check the facts surrounding this issue? Really? Or have you just taken on opinions? I want people to check facts. I want people not to rely on popular opinion so I'm not saying this to be mean.

The "untested love" thing simply doesn't make sense when one considers an omniscient God. There actually is a response that would make far more sense, and is explained more than once in the bible, but you have totally failed to hit upon it. Baker has even hinted at it a couple of times but you have totally missed it.

how can one know one's character unless it's been tested? Our character is REVEALED in our circumstances like trials. We're like sponges. we're not sure how we'll hold up until we get wet. Why doesn't this make sense? Would you "enlighten" me to what you are hinting at?

You are certainly not thinking logically, you are thinking like a blind zealot which is all I am really trying to point out to you although I doubt that you will see it.

That's the second time Mason, you have attacked my character. I ignored the first. Usually that means, end of debate. It means you have nothing left.

*sigh* you use typical dodging tactics and are intentionally obtuse regarding logic.



You might be surprised by how much I have researched this particular subject. It was one of my favorite topics while in college and did eventually lead me to a belief in God (yes it may surprise you to know that I am a Christian). Just not of the illogical view that you seem to have of God. A great deal of the bible is metaphorical (including and especially Genesis) and strongly influenced by the culture of the time. Much of it was not meant to be taken literally just as the teachings of Jesus in the form of parables were meant to teach without being taken literally. I find it sad that so many legalistic, literal people simply fail to understand this.

If you can't understand simple logic as applied to the myth then there is nothing left to say. You simply refuse to consider a simple thought process called logic. I can see that you aren't sincere in your claim to be seeking truth but instead prefer to stick to illogical talking points provided by others. I'm done with this as it's obvious that rational discourse simply isn't possible here. Too bad really as it could be an interesting conversation.