I'm just curious what that would be?

here is one :"the last thing you want is for God to be fair". God is nothing if not fair and just, He is Absolute Fairness and Justice personified. and that is to everyone and everything He created whether they believe in Him or not.

Here is another one:"We beieve that the current system was not the original system. It is a distortion of what God intended. God's original design was exactly what you might wish for; It was fair. ". God's "original system" and "what God intended" Can Not and are Not subject to change or distortions by any of His creations. your idea of God is unfortunately much less than what He is as He described Himself. What you missing is this: nothing in all what He created is there but for His will or His permission. He exercises His will and creates what He wants and along with it the rules by which that creation acts and lives. For Adam and all of us that includes the will to choose (by the way that was an offer from Him that Adam accepted, it was not a decree from Him that Adam and us should have 'Free Will' ". He allows our choices to go according to the laws He created. But sometimes He interferes with that and blocks the natural outcome for our behaviors or actions. I am sure we all know situations like that ....... we call it miracles or "Unbelievable" dont we? God is the ABSOLUTE and that in everything: Power, Justice, Fairness, Knowledge, Mercy, Forgiveness, Punishment, Planning, Love, Hate, ... etc. Always remeber HE created EVERYTHING, that includes good as well as bad things. Nothing Exists that He did not create and nothing happens that He did not Allow. He is much more than what you think of Him.

I am a truth seeker no matter where it leads me

I believe that Jesus is not only the solution...he's the truth and I don't say that lightly. To believe otherwise we'd have to call him a liar.

I am glad you are that way. However God is The solution, nothing and no one else is. And you are correct, Jesus and all other prophets will never lie or misrepresent the God who sent them to us.

If you really looking for the truth, look and study what ALL He said not just in the OT/NT but also in Qura'an. Muslims believe that it is the Words of God too. so let's take them at their words and see what it says. you dont have to be a Muslim to read it or discuss what it says. We do that all the time when we talk about terrorism, don't we? so why not read it all and see what it says about all these issues we talking about here. it has an equal claim as the OT/NT if not more, since it claims it is the literal words of God with no human input whatsoever unlike the OT/Nt which have considerable input from humans and they were written decades after Jesus and Moses passed away from Earth while Qura'an (according to Muslims) was written and documented during Mohammad's life and he reviewd it twice with Archangel Gabriel before he died. Truth seeking dectates that we look at all sources and not intentionally ignore what is available. If we dont, it means that we really not looking for the truth. we just looking for what supports our views. That is different than looking for the truth.

The Creation Story as told in OT is incomplete that is why it sounds like a myth and is subject to all the logical questions you see here. and you really have no logical answer since you relying solaly on the OT. Here is what Qura'an say about the Creation and it answers most if not all the questions raised here in this thread:

God told the Angels He will create a special creation and told them I will Inject him with part of my Spirit. When I do and I perfect him Kneel Down to him. The Angels were not exactly happy with that and asked why is God doing that while they worship Him and Obey Him perpetually and without hesitation. He told them I know what you dont know. And I know what you think and feel about that too. They apologized and said we should not ask about things we dont know.

After God created Adam He taught him ALL names (that is everything including the meaning of everything i.e. Right, Wrong, Love, Hate, Good, Bad, Obey, Disobey ..etc.) and asked the Angels to name these same things, they couldnt and He asked Adam and Adam did say all the names that he learned from God. Then God Offered the "Trust" (Qura'an's term for free will as understod by Muslims) to ALL Creations. ALL declined it Except Adam, he accepted it. God then told the angels "didnt I tell you that I know what you dont? now you see he is special? Then God orderd All angels to Kneel Down before Adam. All did except Satan. when God asked Satan why he didnt obey, Satan answerd "I am better than him, you created me from fire but he is from dust". God answerd that by cursing Satan for disobediance and condemned him to Hellifire for Eternity. Satan replied "since you did that, what if i prove that he is not worthy of all that you have given him?give me a chance to prove my point and after that do what you will, we all are Subjects to You". God's reponse was an example of His Fairness and Justice, He gave Satan his wish and told him go and do what you can but you will never have power over him and his children AS LONG AS THEY BELIEVE IN ME AND FOLLOW MY GUIDANCE. All that while Adam is there watching and listening along with all the Angels.

God then created Eve and He told BOTH that Satan will try to decieve them and he is their worst enemy and they should not listen to what Satan says, he will try to make them disobey God and that is a sin they should not commit and they should follow God's guidance otherwise they will be punished severely if they follow Satan's advice. The rest of the story is similar to what is in the OT.

The story as told by Qura'an asnwers many questions:
1- Adam Chose to accept the "Free Will" responsibilities, it was not imposed on him. By doing that he raised his status in God's sight and God appreciated that. but nothing is free in Free-Will-Environment. By doing that Adam elevated his status (and ours) over most of the creations but (and this but is the price of that) he subjected himself (and us) to punishment as well. Eden was and is a glorious place and it is beautiful but nothing, nothing is perfect Except HIM. Every creation have their own faults. by definition the Created Can't be as good as the Creator. and since God is Perfect nothing else is. just remember the word perfect here means "Absolute Perfection". That only belongs to Him. not even to Eden or Paradise. same thing applies to all His attributes, Powerful, Meciful, Great, Exaulted,.... etc.

2-It was not a Test. Satan refused to accept the fact that Adam is better than him in God's sight and he wanted to prove his cliam. Being Fair and Just, God granted Satan that request and warned Adam and Eve about the challenge. He had previously taught Adam what is right and what is wrong and that following Satan's advice IS a SIN and is wrong and will be punishable by God.

3- Adam and Eve were not ignorant of what is right and what is wrong. they were fully aware of that. God punished Adam and Eve by sending them down to Earth as punishment for this one disobedience and he told them Again what He said before and that the challenge from Satan will continue on Earth and you and your children will be safe as long as you follow Me not Satan and I promise both of you that i will send you guidence through My Prophets. "Believe in ME and Listen to My Prophets and he will have no power over you and dont follow Satan and his followers humans or Jinn they are your worst enemies", That is how Qura'an puts it. Free Will involves choices and since Adam is a creation and he does not have Absolute Goodness and sooner or later his choices will include mistakes. Adam knew that and he still accepted the offer. Yes God could have refused Satan's request but that would not be fair to Satan, would it? Satan is convinced that he is better than Adam and wanted to prove it. It was a fair decision, let both Adam and Satan face each other and see who is better. God promised Adam (and us) that He will always be on our side as long as we are on His. What could be more Fair and Just than that?

4-Whether the Story is a fact or a myth depends on one's belief in GOD himself. If one believes that God, the Absolute God not the one you describe, is a fact and exists, then it is not much of a problem to say that the story as told by Qura'an is also a fact. It represents no logical problems. it is consistent and logical there. The cahallenge would have continued in Eden even if Adam and Eve did not eat from that tree. Satan would have tried something else. sooner or later they would have disobeyed, since they are not perfect and they can never be and they would have ended up here on Earth.

Truth, real truth, will hold up to critical and logical examination. The Eden story fails that test

As told in Qura'an it holds up very nicely. And you are correct Real Truth must hold up to critical logical examination. you just have to get the full story first before you can examine it. Actually Qura'an "Invites" and "orders" that kind of logic and examination of all things in life around us. it just says "examine all around you and what you hear and see and don't pick and choose and be honest in your assessment" that is how Qura'an puts it.

(yes it may surprise you to know that I am a Christian).

Why should I be surprised? I should know right away if you are a brother to me. It should be obvious. Is it a secret? I've met people I didn't know for more than five minutes and right away there was a connection with the HS. Doesn't matter what nationality, color or language spoken.....the spirit Paul said bears witness and I find this to be true.

A great deal of the bible is metaphorical (including and especially Genesis) and strongly influenced by the culture of the time. Much of it was not meant to be taken literally just as the teachings of Jesus in the form of parables were meant to teach without being taken literally.

what parts? How do you determine? When Moses got the 10 commandments, was that fiction? How about when Jesus turned water into wine? Pretend? Peter walking on water? A myth? How can you say it's fiction in some spots and not others? I've already given you my principle of when it makes sense seek no other. Actually I find a great part of the bible to be prophetical. Some coming true already and some still future.

Much of it was not meant to be taken literally just as the teachings of Jesus in the form of parables were meant to teach without being taken literally.

Jesus always used common things to teach a literal truth so I'd disagree here. He used common everyday things, like a door, bread, wine, water, wine, etc. Parables were spoken for a reason. It was a way to communicate truth. My guess when I read those parables like the Prodigal Son or the Farmer with lazy farmhands etc. Jesus had somebody in mind when he told them.

I can see that you aren't sincere in your claim to be seeking truth but instead prefer to stick to illogical talking points provided by others.

ya know speaking of logic. This is a double sided argument. Who are these others?

I find it sad that so many legalistic, literal people simply fail to understand this.

first of all I may be literal...I'll admit that....but I am not legalistic at all...by no stretch, unless your definition of legalism is believing the bible is the literal word of God. Then you might have a point.

I'm done with this as it's obvious that rational discourse simply isn't possible here. Too bad really as it could be an interesting conversation

No, this is Mason getting angry and taking his toys home with him. Com'on Mason, I like you, I have no problem with you but here you have really lit into me hard filling your comments with lots of insults. As a Christian, like you said, how does this fit with your belief? I'm really not into Christian cannablism.

You've really given me nothing but only repeating I'm not logical but you're not backing anything up. Tell me why I'm illogical. I'm ok with that.

How did you determine that Jesus wasn't wood and hinges? That's always been your problem, you are the only one that gets to decide when something is literal or not.

How did you determine that Jesus wasn't wood and hinges?

Are you serious? I dearly hope you're joking.

If so, please excuse me, I'm not used to this side of Baker.

Seriously. It's a matter of degrees, granted, but all the time you are saying that *duh* that was figurative or *duh* that is literal. Then, the first time anyone else says something is figurative that you think is literal you start with the, "but how do you pick and choose" stuff.

So, I was just asking, how do you? Surely not "your heart"... surely not "common sense". Surely after scolding folks for using those vile tools so many times you wouldn't rely on that.

OH, wait, that's right, when it is your heart it is the "HS", when it is mine it is the "wisdom of the world"...

The solution is NOT to try and explain EVERYTHING through Christianity....might as well put you in a room with a devout Buddhist and Hindu and let you exhaust yourselves putting forth each other's "truths" while life continues on.....

BAKERSTREET POSTS: The fact is the Bible states plainly that the garden had the devil in it. No one can say it was perfect.

God created expressly a garden that is known as Paradise. There was sublime happiness, tranquility, etc. No death, no violence, but perfect harmony between God and man, man and animal and man with one another. From this standpoint, it was the most 'perfect" place on earth located in Asia between the two great rivers. The perfectness of the garden was origiinally intended by God to be forever as Adam and Eve were given the gift of immortality by eating of the Tree of life.

Heaven is the only super natural place of eternal Perfectness, but here we're talking about an earthly situation and place.

KFC---Very good and interesting article....Although I get Stanley's point, I think that basing article on "fairness" is awkward. It's entitled Christianity is not fair and yet if you look up the word "fair" or "fairness", you find the word "just". From that standpoint, I think one could argue that Christianity is just....and this would be a contradiction in terms. No?

Reply By: KFC (Kickin For Christ) Posted: Thursday, February 08, 2007
A perfect environment wouldn't have satan in it, would it?


Satan is harmless if we don't mess with him. He has no power over me or you unless we let him. You've heard this: "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world."

or how about this:

"Resist the devil and he will flee."

Was that done by Eve
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I agree with you KFC.

BAKERSTREET POSTS:I think the biblical description of Satan implies that he has no power unless GOD gives it to him.



God created the angels before man. He gave them free will to love and obey Him. Lucifer's own vanity and pride got him thrown out of Heaven. Satan doesn't have "power". This is the wrong word to use. God didn't give Satan his evilness either, but allows him to prowl around the earth looking for souls to destroy. Man has been given free will and Satan's evilness is meaningless if we spurn him in thought, word and action.

Then, the first time anyone else says something is figurative that you think is literal you start with the, "but how do you pick and choose" stuff

that's not fair. What is being said is....it's a myth. Being figurative and being a myth to me is diff. Anytime in scripture where something is deemed figurative or symbolic there's truth behind it. It's not just being symbolic or figurative for that sake but rather to teach us the deeper truth behind it.

Like Christ saying he was the bread of life. It is a "duh" moment using your words. Of course we know he's not a loaf of bread. The deeper meaning we know is that he is our sustenance. We go to him to be fed spiritually like the Hebrews went to gather manna physically. He put the two together.

He is the door. Well, "duh" we know he's not a door. He's the only entrance to heaven. He's saying if you go thru me, you'll see the Father in heaven.

The reason that Genesis is a myth is because people want to believe it is. A myth is total fiction. It's fiction for fiction sake. To enjoy and lose yourself in it to get away from the real world. I'm saying Genesis does not fit the myth descriptive. Besides, where do you draw the line from fiction to non fiction? Abraham is prominent in Chap 12. Is that truth or fiction? I've said before Genesis and REvelation are two of the most attacked books of the bible and for good reason. Satan is doomed in both of them. I believe it's he that's behind the whole myth lie. Deception is his favorite game.

As far as Eden NOT being perfect because Satan was there we can't know for sure the time frame involved. We know when man and woman were first put in this enviornment and before God rested he said it was very good. He wouldn't have said that if Satan was lurking behind the apple tree. Sometime later Satan came into the picture, but we can't really know at what point this was.

Very good and interesting article....Although I get Stanley's point, I think that basing article on "fairness" is awkward. It's entitled Christianity is not fair and yet if you look up the word "fair" or "fairness", you find the word "just". From that standpoint, I think one could argue that Christianity is just....and this would be a contradiction in terms. No?

Wel this is one of like three of four articles I've written on this subject. during the last couple weeks or so. You may have to go back and read the others to really understand Stanley's point. What I'm saying is that if God was fair, he would give us what we deserve. We deserve death for breaking all his commands. We are tainted by sin and no one is exempt. We're guilty as charged. He's just because he looks at our records, our crimes and sees that a penalty was paid for us and he sets us free. Payment has been made. We are exhonorated with no other chance of being retried.

The solution is NOT to try and explain EVERYTHING through Christianity....might as well put you in a room with a devout Buddhist and Hindu

Do they offer an explanation and a solution for the evilness and sin in the world?

OH, wait, that's right, when it is your heart it is the "HS", when it is mine it is the "wisdom of the world"...

I've never done that Baker. I've never outright said it's on the HS that has told me such and such. The HS works in my life and has since I've come to Christ but the HS works as a witness. We know from scripture that we can't believe anything or anyone on just one witness. There has to be two or three witnesses before anything can be brought to court. It's the same with the HS. The HS works in us but usually has a confirmation of other things. Sometimes it's thru the confirmation of another person, or a situation, or by reading the word or hearing a sermon based on scripture. Jesus even mentioned all that spoke of him as a witness in John 5...his works, the scriptures, God himself on the day he was baptized, John the Baptist, etc. He gives us plenty to make things obvious for us. The question is are we observant?

Christians talk about this all the time. It's like moving for instance. We might ask God, is it time? Then things start happening. A job is lost, another job is secured. We open up scripture and it may say..."GO and I will direct your paths." Now we sometimes second guess and say....am I reading something into this or what? That's fair. But more and more you start to feel like the HS is urging you to get up and move by the evidence all around you. That's how the HS works. More like confirmation and sometimes a warning.

This happens in all sorts of situations. It may have to do with family situations medical decisions, making a large purchase, going into a new business etc. Sometimes we get bombarded with sermons or scripture and it can be very obvious. Sometimes we don't heed the HS and we realize it later. Been there, done that.

I think the biblical description of Satan implies that he has no power unless GOD gives it to him.

yes like Lula said tho he has no power over us unless we allow him in. God allows him to have his day but he will be defeated when God says enough. God said quite clearly thru Paul...."greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. We can do all things thru Christ who strengthens us." Think about Christ in his temptation. It can be done. He's our example.

Tell that to Lula. Were you Catholic the obviousness of that "figurative" statement would be a lot more literal, wouldn't it? Transubstantiation isn't so symbolic for everyone.



He came in before there was sin, right? Before the fall of man. Don't you find that odd? "Good" doesn't necessarily mean "perfect". I'll say again that if Satan was in the Garden of Eden, then it wasn't perfect.



Again, I'd point out that he was able to kill all of Job's family, and basically run amok because he and God supposedly had a bet on the subject. Do you think God would kill off an entire family on a bet? I don't.

Yes.....and Well not really I guess. Satan rebelled against God. The first thing he did was go after what God loved. He's still doing that. We fall for his bag of tricks every time. Have you ever read Ezek 28? It's another picture of Satan. Here's a bit of it.

"You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God, every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold on the day you were created, they were prepared. You were annointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God, you walked among the firey stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of god and I expelled you, O guardian cherb, from among the firey stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor...."



I was Catholic. Like I asked her on that other site, why does she ignore John 6:63 which explains it? She quoted all the scripture around it but left out that very importand one.

The reason is because it puts a wrench in the transubstantiation belief. It was never meant to be taken literally. That's why some of the disciples left. They couldn't take it that way. Besides.....it's like holding up a picture and saying...."this is me." It's not really you. It's a picture of you. When Christ held up the bread and said "this is my body," he wasn't saying it was really his body but that it was a picture of his body. It represented his body. How could it be his body? He was right there bodily in front of them. Makes no sense. Like I said...if it makes sense, seek no other sense.



I don't either. Everything is done for God's glory. God allowed this to happen and what was the result? God was glorified. Job came thru the trial refined as silver. Do you know much about how silver is refined? It's always put on a very high hot heat but the eyes of the silversmith never leaves it. It's almost finished when the mark of the silversmith can be seen. Job came thru the fire and God's mark could be seen. He blessed him and rewarded him for his great faith in God. He's a great example for us all and the reason we have the book of Job. We never go thru a trial without coming out changed and turned in a diff direction.

Jesus never said we would be without troubles and trials. He did say tho that when we go thru them he would be with us. I've seen many people come to Christ as a result of witnessing other people's trials or Job experiences. It's been said the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the faith.

Which is something that God wouldn't really have to allow, just like He wouldn't have had to allow Satan into the Garden.



Because she sees that scripture differently. You don't have a problem with the idea that scripture being symbolic or highly interpreted... UNLESS... someone comes to a different conclusion. That's why it seems so hypocritical when you offer the "where does it end" argument about interpretation.

You interpret, they interpret. For some reason you believe, though, that the way in which that is accomplished is different. That's why you always call other people's interpretation worldly wisdom, and deem your own something else.



OH, sorry. God didn't allow the death of Job's family on a bet, it was so that He could look good. Well... that's... um, different, I guess. LOL. This is a vicious, self-centered god you worship, KFC.

I almost hate to get involved because you guys get so deep. But this is a book I spent some time identifying with during a bad time in my life. So the following is what I got from it....



Unless you look at it from an eternal perspective.

I don't think God saw Job's family as "dead." I think he watched them cross the line from the land of the living into eternity with Him.

When Job was restored everything he owned before was doubled, EXCEPT the number of children. I think that's because his children weren't dead, they just had a change of address.

I think of it this way. There is a time in a child's life when they believe you are gone forever when you leave the room. They grieve, they scream and cry and have REAL emotions about you being gone forever. Some kids (my youngest) could go for hours just in horrible torment over my departure.

But as a parent I try to comfort but in the end I know I'm not gone forever, just changing locations. I can see both sides of the equation.

I don't think God sees death like we do, and therefore is not bound by what I perceive to be good and bad it.

I understand that, Tova, I do, but then why would we have such a "culture of life"? Murder is one of our most heinous sins. Abortion is opposed by who? The religious most often. If death was just a "change of address", why would it matter so much?

I know this is going to come back to the supremacy of God and how God is allowed to do stuff that we aren't, but in the end it feeds off our basest definition of death. If death isn't "bad", it's odd that we have few tragedies that amount to as much as death. At least you lived through it, right?

God told Satan about Job:

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life."

If death is just a change of address to a better place, why not just go ahead in the end and kill Job, and let him be in heaven with his first, murdered family? Murder it was, because it was a purposeful taking of their lives, and it was sanctioned by God based on little more than a boast or wager. Perhaps God is above the law, and for me to do it is murder, and for him to do it is akin to helping someone move.

The distinction seems awfully convenient, though, and pointed much more toward validating the unsavory beliefs of primitive people as inerrant.