"Many walk away from Christianity because they deem it unfair. Because it's unfair, they say, it isn't true. Is that fair?"

I think you are confusing 'unfair' with 'hypocritical'. They walk away from Christianity because it portrays God as a being that doesn't abide by His own laws. You do unto others, unless it is the Philistines. Do good to those that treat you badly, and if someone is good yet doesn't meet the criteria they burn in hell for eternity.

That might be misconstrued as "fairness" had we not been given edicts IN THE RELIGION ITSELF to behave differently. We are taught what goodness, kindness, justice is, and then we are expected to believe that God behaved unkindly, unjustly, even intending evil. The problem is your definition of goodness doesn't match the image you've created of God.

So is hypocrisy the same thing as unfairness? I don't think so. It's not a matter of just one getting more than the other, or one being spared while the other isn't. This is about detailed descriptions of God behaving in a way that a human would be condemned, BY GOD, for. Period.

We no longer want to worship old, angry warrior gods from the bronze age that behave worse than we do.

I think you are confusing 'unfair' with 'hypocritical'. They walk away from Christianity because it portrays God as a being that doesn't abide by His own laws.

ya think? You know I've never heard this POV before until I started speaking to you. I think most people would go with the unfair principle like I stated because that's what I hear most of the time as a reason for not coming to Christ.

God isn't fair...he took this little child but left that cranky old man behind........
God isn't fair....this person is the kindest ever, yet so many bad things happen to him.....
God isn't fair.....it seems that the wicked prosper while the good get beaten down.....
God isn't fair.....he doesn't answer my prayers and I've done such good all my life.....
God isn't fair.....the drunk lives while the innocent die in yet another car accident......

that's the stuff I hear.....

This is about detailed descriptions of God behaving in a way that a human would be condemned, BY GOD, for. Period.

you keep trying to put God and man on a level playing field. No wonder it's such a struggle for you. It just can't be done. Our ways and our thinking are not the same as God's. He sees the finished product while we see the work in progress. We see the underside of the masterpiece quilt being woven with all it's loose threads and knots while God sees the top side and the beauty it will turn out to be. He's sovereign and we are not.

We no longer want to worship old, angry warrior gods from the bronze age that behave worse than we do.

this is the obstacle for you, that stands in your way from having a really wonderful relationship with a Sovereign God. I don't worship that God.

Think of it this way...when a nation starts burning children as a gift to the gods Lev 18:21 and practices sodomy, bestiality and all sorts of ungodly behavior Lev 18:25-30 the day of God's grace and patience has run out.

These nations were cut off and blanket destruction done in order to prevent the corruption of Israel and the rest of the world....Deut 20:16-18.

Just like a surgeon doesn't hesitate to cut off a gangreneous limb they may have to take some healthy flesh with it, so too does God do the same. This is not doing evil that good will come of it. It's removing the cancer that could infect all society and eventually destroy the remaining good. Like I said before, God had a plan right from the get go that his son would die on that cross for all humanity and Satan's goal was to do what he could to exterminate the Jews before the Savior could be born.

God could have used whatever means he deemed. He could have used hurricanes, famine, diseases or anything. In the cases you cite he chose to use Israel to reveal his power but the charge of cruelty against God just because you don't understand him is no more deserved in this case than it is in the general order of things in the world where all sorts of calamities happen.

You're quick to take the side of the enemy when the enemy was so wicked. Look at the Amelekites for instance. God was against them. why? Because when the Hebrews were wandering thru the desert toward Canaan the Amelekites picked off the weak, sick and elderly at the end of the line of marchers and brutally murdered the stragglers. They had no fear of God said Moses, Deut 25:17-18.

Some commentators believe that the Amalekites were not just plundering or fighting who owned what territories; they were attacking God's chosen people to discredit the living God. Many make a case that Hamman was an Amalekite. Do you know who he was? He was what we call a pre-Hitler. His proclamation was that all Jews throughout the Persian Empire would be massacred on a certain day. These nations that you so defend Baker showed a deep hatred for God and their actions were very brutal and sadistic...not unlike what we saw under Saddaam's regime.

you chose to see a mean vengeful God and I choose to see a loving God who gives out numerous chances but in the end, has to extend his arm of justice. For what? To protect the rest of society from this cancer that would otherwise have suffocated the good flesh.

It needed to be ripped out and rooted out. Instead of condemning God you should be grateful.

Our ways and our thinking are not the same as God's. He sees the finished product while we see the work in progress. We see the underside of the masterpiece quilt being woven with all it's loose threads and knots while God sees the top side and the beauty it will turn out to be. He's sovereign and we are not.

You understand that you could excuse ANYTHING with that, right? The meso-american religions no doubt told their children the same thing when they asked why it was okay to cut people's hearts out. Whatever you do, don't question things you see as evil, because that is "questioning God". Take no notice of the little, mortal men behind the curtain that forged your "divine" image of God.

You aren't much different than Lula. She calls the inquisition 'holy', you call the barbarity of the OT God 'holy'. You both lack the ability to make any moral judgments on your own. You both just chalk horrors up to the sovereignty of God and never recognize that it is men's hands committing them.

You just start your skepticism a few hundred years before she does, and are just as blind previous to that. If you granted the same skepticism to the OT era that you grant to the Middle Ages you might find the ability to judge objectively.

"this is the obstacle for you, that stands in your way from having a really wonderful relationship with a Sovereign God."

And it is in the depths of your sickness that you pretend to know what sort of relationship I have with God. There's yet another flavor of "christian" hypocrisy.

And it is in the depths of your sickness that you pretend to know what sort of relationship I have with God. There's yet another flavor of "christian" hypocrisy.

and whenever it gets to the sticking point...the sovereignty of God...you go off the deep end. It never fails Baker. I don't mean to set you off...really. It just does.

I'm not pretending; only going by what you're saying. I'll be careful the next time....I thought you could take it. Obviously only you can say what you perceive to be mean things. I guess I'm walking on eggshells here. Sorry I'll try to be not so forthright in the future.....if that's what you want.

"and whenever it gets to the sticking point...the sovereignty of God...you go off the deep end. It never fails Baker. I don't mean to set you off...really. It just does."

No, when you are backed into a corner, you start questioning people's "relationship" with God. It's your last resort in any debate; your 'nuke' to lob. The old "Well, you just feel that way because you don't know God the way I do".

Obviously, no one that believes differently than you can be as close to God as you. That way you know you are right so long as you feel close to God. Of course, God wouldn't allow anyone who was wrong about Him to be close to Him, would He?

If anyone else could be, then you MIGHT be as wrong, or *gasp* even more wrong than they are. How frightening for you. It's much more comfortable to believe that you can't be wrong, because you feel close to God.

"Think of it this way...when a nation starts burning children as a gift to the gods Lev 18:21 and practices sodomy, bestiality and all sorts of ungodly behavior Lev 18:25-30 the day of God's grace and patience has run out."

How do we feel about people who talk about "nations" as a whole now. I find the practices of the Chinese government repugnant. According to the Bible, so would God. Does that mean the "nation" should burst into flame, kids, old ladies, and all?

Would you feel it understandable to see a billion people die because of the overall level of adherence to God's ideas?

"You're quick to take the side of the enemy when the enemy was so wicked."

Feel free to count how many times God went AGAINST Israel, too. How many times were they carried off, defeated in battle, set upon by plagues? No doubt nations like Babylon, Persia, etc., thought that the downfall of Israel validated their PAGAN beliefs...

"you chose to see a mean vengeful God and I choose to see a loving God who gives out numerous chances but in the end, has to extend his arm of justice. For what? To protect the rest of society from this cancer that would otherwise have suffocated the good flesh."

His "arm of justice" toward a "cancer" made up of women, children, etc. We call that genocide now. When Hitler killed millions of Jews because they were Jews we call it evil. When an angel of God strikes down 180,000 in one night, we call it "justice". When God orders Israel to kill women and children because of their faith, we call them a "cancer".

Truth and fairness are different concepts so why try to equate them? Fairness doesn't enter into the equation.

If something is true, then it happened. If someone runs into a tree then the truth is that someone hit a tree.

Fairness has to do more with perception and and interpretation.

I also think that the answer to "why?" can't always be answered with complete truthfulness due to things that we don't notice or can't know.

I do hope that if anything ever does happen to one of your children which results in their death, these words come back to haunt you.

What words? You're saying you believe I'm going to cry out to God that he's unfair if one of my children were taken? I'm not going to do that. Yes, I will grieve. Maybe I will question God. But here's the thing.... I feel that we need to understand the character of God before we question his conduct before the trials come into our lives. When the trials come, we already know his character is totally just and infalible. I believe in a compassionate God, one of mercy and grace. He is long suffering and caring and good all the time. All the time. If my child dies of cancer it's not his fault. It's a result of the cancer called sin in our world that started way back when the pandora box was opened.

Someone receiving a death sentence of cancer and God telling the Israelites to go in and wipe out the Amelekites are two totally diff things. One is a natural logical consequence for sin and the other is God's protection on society as a whole.

For instance....we don't get upset when we think of going in and getting rid of the Nazi's and all they stood for. They were stopped and many were killed as a result of it. It had to be done otherwise this hate and misplaced power would have spread. The Amalekites were perhaps the most savage and inhumane of the Canaanites. So why is it ok for us to exterminate Hitler and his ilk and not ok for God to wipe out these savege people? Why is ok for us to go in and take out Saddaam and his people but not God stopping the same type of people? What's the diff? It's ok for us to go in and take care of business but not God?

I'm not saying I understand all what God does. I don't. I do know that it's his world. He made us for a reason. His love for us is such that he doesn't wish us to be hurt. It's not him hurting us, it's us hurting ourselves as we wander out of the "safe zone" into the darkness.

I also think that the answer to "why?" can't always be answered with complete truthfulness due to things that we don't notice or can't know.

I agree.

How do we feel about people who talk about "nations" as a whole now. I find the practices of the Chinese government repugnant. According to the Bible, so would God. Does that mean the "nation" should burst into flame, kids, old ladies, and all?Would you feel it understandable to see a billion people die because of the overall level of adherence to God's ideas?

Now that Israel was protected and provided for in order to bring the Savior here, God is allowing the wheat and tares to grow together but even then, Jesus asked because of this...."when I come back will I even find faith on the earth?" We know that bad company corrupts good behavior. In China there is an underground church that is flourishing. To me this is showing God's mercy and faithfulness in bringing these people to himself in spite of the government of China.

Feel free to count how many times God went AGAINST Israel, too. How many times were they carried off, defeated in battle, set upon by plagues? No doubt nations like Babylon, Persia, etc., thought that the downfall of Israel validated their PAGAN beliefs...

actually Baker this is a good point. God used the other nations here in complete reversal to punish Israel. But there is a diff. God didn't wipe them out, but instead punished them for their unfaithfulness. God makes it clear in Deut 9:5....."It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations."

Again it goes back to the fairness/truth thing. It wasn't because they were good. It was because God is good. If God was going to be fair, he would have wiped out the Hebrews as well.

Israel was punished for their sins repeatedly. They were a stubborn and stiff necked people. The lure of the world was such they felt compelled to follow after it. That's why God did do what he had to do when it came to protecting his people. Like you said....you would protect your child from the evil influences of the world as much as you can. That's what God was doing as well. If he didn't do so, there would be no Messiah. There would be no nation Israel because they would have been assimilated into the other cultures.

When Hitler killed millions of Jews because they were Jews we call it evil

Yes but do you call us evil for wiping out Hitler and his people? Or do you call it justice? Hitler had to be stopped. The Amelekites had to be stopped. They too were killing the back of Israel's marchers...the weak, the sick and the young. It's the same story. History repreats itself. Just think of the Amalekites as Hitler's army. They had to be stopped.

When God orders Israel to kill women and children because of their faith, we call them a "cancer".

If the women and children had been spared in those profane Canaanite nations how long would it have been before a fresh crop of adults would emerge just like their pagan predecessors? In the providential acts of life it is understood that individuals share in the life of their families and nations.

Wow. That's probably the worst thing I have ever heard you say, bar none. I wouldn't talk about Hitler if I were you, in proximity to your religious arguments it doesn't do them much good. We didn't kill all the germans, did we?

No, you and I don't worship the same God, not in the least.

were you not once yourself catholic?

yet, having been so fortunate to know and be part of the one true apostolic universal church instituted by the word of jesus himself, you rejected it in favor of another set of beliefs instituted by men rather than god? or, more accurately, you chose to reject catholicism to follow men who willfully opposed the church founded by jesus.



please provide one example of god authorizing--much less permitting--any man BUT jesus to reform or improve upon his mandated means of worship.

you're only human and thus prone to error so it does seem unfair you'll be punished for eternity for having made a foolish personal choice--although to your detriment you've also insisted upon and persisted in corrupting anyone who'll listen to you.

on the other hand, perhaps it's fairer than it appears at first glance. after all, it aint as if you haven't been warned by none other than merciful jesus himself:

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't put that the way you intended, KFC. It sounded like you were saying that it was just to kill ALL pagans, women, children, etc., to make sure they didn't breed any more pagans. You realize by saying that you're basically turning God INTO Hitler, right?

I'm saying that God in this case made that decision. It wasn't all the pagans anyhow, it was a particular group of people who were very savage and nasty and it was affecting the nation Israel. THis is not MY decision it was his. Later we read where he did spare the young females when it came to the Midianites. Any kind of violence or murder makes me sick. I don't like war. I usually don't like to even watch the war movies if they have blood and gore. It does get me upset.

I was talking with my Dad the other day. He's much older and wiser than me when it comes to war. He's a VET and a WWII buff and he says that what we're doing now is the same thing we did in Vietnam. We are fighting a media war and it will never work. THe only thing the Muslims understand and appreciate is power, strength. We are trying to fight a limited war and it's never going to work. We're trying to root out just the bad guys and it's failing. Only when we go in with full force knowing there will be collateral damage and accept it, (I know this sounds awful...I agree) can the war be stopped. I think he's got a point. Do I think it's fair? No, but again, is it true? Probably.

That's what I see God doing. Putting a stop to it and going after the root. He just didn't take up the top he went down deep to stop this evil from spreading.

Do I like it? No. Do I wish he would do it another way? Yes, but who am I to say what that way would be?

actually it's only fair that I DO get punished eternally. I've broken all 10 commandments. I've sinned against God many times. So to be honest I do think God should send me to hell. That's what I'm saying. God isn't fair. If he was, he'd send me to hell. Instead his mercy triumphs his judgment. I'm grateful for that. It's not about what religion you go to. I'm not going to be saved because I attend the CC or any other denomination.



No, I read scripture for myself like the Reformers did and realized that Christ did not institute any true denomination on earth. He even said his kingdom was no part of this world. I'm not following men. I'm following Christ and believing that his word accurately was left behind for us to know the diff.



His mandated means of worship includes what? He passed his baton to his disciples and told them to go forward. We see 120 not just 12 in the first chapter of Acts who were immersed in the HS. They were all to go out and make disciples. That's the church. Not the CC but the Christians that make up the body of Christ.



and I'm causing others to sin by doing what?