SAN CHONINO WRITES:
First off, lula . . . did you happen to have a tree?
Hmm . . . origin of the Christmas tree . . . pagan.
How about mistletoe or holly? Used two hundred years BC to celebrate the coming of winter.
Did you know the Catholic church banned the use of holly and mistletoe in the early days because of its pagan background? And now, I see it gracing the buttresses of my local Catholic parish.
Would you like more?
Remember, we are celebrating the yuletide and all . . . oh wait, that's pagan.
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Catholics, as far as I can tell, are not/do not celebrate this time of year as you say the "Yuletide and all". The Christmas season which celebrates the birth of Jesus and his early manifestation begins with the 4 weeks (Advent) prior to the Nativity of Our Lord, and the cyle ends with the Sunday after Epiphany, the celebration of the Baptism of our Lord. None of this is known as Yuletide.

We've already discussed that neither the day, the month or year of Christ's birth is known for sure. Several hypothesis are offered for setting Dec. 25th and Jan. 6th for the celebration of Our Lord's birth. Yule tide has to do with the winter solstice which occurs every year at this time. Solstice comes from Latin meaning "the sun stands still". No one seems to know where the word "Yule" comes from. Some say it's an old Germanic word and others say it's ANglo-Saxon meaning feast. What is known is that the Yule feast is pre-Christian celebrating the victory of the sun god over darkness. To celebrate, a log was hauled from one of the largest trees and burned to honor their gods and to bring them good luck in the coming year. They used holly to kindle the fire and supersticiously thought that it would keep their houses free from fire.

The only connection that I can see for the dating of Christmas is that some Church Fathers contrasted the birth of Christ and the winter solstice. Arianism was condemned at the Council of Nicaea in 325 and it was the time that the feast of the sun god was particularly strong at Rome. The pro-longed anti Arian effort and later the anti-Nestorian effort, also affected the feast. For some at that time, particularly St. Augustine, Christmas was commemorated more as a historical event, however, 50 years later, Pope Leo the Great, who opposed the Arians and Manichaeans, spoke of Christmas as a mystery feast and thus Christmas became a liturgical celebration of the Mystery of the Incarnation.

Yes, during Advent, I decorated a beautiful 7 foot balsalm fir tree with white lights and angels all over. Very near it is a creche. Both will be stay until the end of the Christmas liturgical season.

The Christmas tree is derived, not from the pagan yule tree, but from the Paradise tree adorned with apples on Dec. 24 in honor of Adam and Eve, our first parents.

It wasn't until 1983 that Pope John Paul II introduced the custom of the Christmas tree to the Vatican. Previously, it has always been that children from all over the world would bring small figures of the Christ child to St.Peter's square.

Legends or fables are stories that aren't historical, but meant to teach a lesson. The events surrounding the birth of Christ have certainly given rise to many legends. It need scarcely be said that the uncertainity of human calculations as to the time in no way affects the fact of the birth of Christ.

SAN CHONINO WROTES: Did you know the Catholic church banned the use of holly and mistletoe in the early days because of its pagan background? And now, I see it gracing the buttresses of my local Catholic parish.


No, I never heard this before now. Interesting!!! Go ahead and tell me more, if you wish.

Not exactly. Many believe that "rebirth cycle" is the life changes that you go through, and "reincarnation" is only of your soul. So, at a very base level, being reincarnated simply could mean your life after death.

One death? If so, then I wouldn't have a problem, but you know as well as I do that that's not really the definition of reincarnation Buddhist style.

Nirvana is on Earth, not at death

maybe I'm wrong but I thought Nirvana was a state of complete deliverance from pain and sorrow, a state of bliss which is the Eastern equivalent of heaven. But what I do know is it doesn't seem clear cut that's why I was asking you.

On the other hand, yes I can tell you lots about heaven. Are you really interested? Sounds like a great topic for an upcoming blog. Stay tuned....we can continue the discussion then. But what I do know is that heaven will be where the King of Peace will rule in the midst of us. There will be no more wars or rumors of wars. There will be no more sickness or disease. Most of all there will be no more death. It will be the Garden of Eden all over, this time with the King of Kings ruling. There will be "true" peace and safety as he does so.

Christ spoke of heaven and he spoke of hell. We have many descriptions on heaven in scripture, not just in Revelation 21, which is most often quoted, but is sprinkled all throughout the Hebrew Scriptures as well.

"The Christmas tree is derived, not from the pagan yule tree, but from the Paradise tree adorned with apples on Dec. 24 in honor of Adam and Eve, our first parents."

LOL... come on, lula. The Church forbade the decoration of trees for centuries. It wasn't until the middle ages that they allowed this "paradise tree" hijack of the pagan version, during the celebration of their Christmas hijack of the pagan holiday.

Given the first mention of the "Christmas Tree" comes in the 1600's, and pagans had been decorating trees with bits of metal for Saturnalia since the Roman Empire was in full swing, I tend to doubt there's no connection.

SAN CHONINO WRITES: KFC is never going to understand Buddhism, she doesn't want to. But as I said, she's not going to look into it. So I applaud the effort, but I fear it's wasted. KFC is never going to understand Buddhism, she doesn't want to. You're exactly right though, it is not incogruous as so many think to be Buddhist and Christian. Heck, I'm Buddhist and Mormon.

and KARMAGIRL WRITES: and there really is a connection, but there is no way you would see it).

From what I’ve read so far of KFC’s remarks, she has “looked into” Buddhism and doesn’t like or agree with what she sees. She’s absolutely right in saying that one cannot be a follower of Christ and Buddha. They are going in two different directions.

I had a good friend, now deceased, who kept a Buddha statue in his house. Whenever I griped about something, he would tell me to rub Buddha’s belly and wish my trouble away. I found it hokey-pokey, but he was 100% serious!
It was only after he tried to get me to practice Buddhist meditation techniques that I learned that Buddhism possesses indispensable articles of belief that are contrary to CC teaching.

Whether or not Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy is immaterial to me. However, for what it is worth Buddhism is listed in the 2005 World Almanac pg. 739 as a world religion. This is under “Beliefs” ---Life is misery and decay, and there is no ultimate reality in it or behind it. The cycle of endless birth and rebirth continues because of desire and attachment to the unreal ‘self’. Right meditation and deeds will end the cycle and achieve Nirvana, the Void, nothingness.

So, evidently, Buddhism isn’t a strict logical dogmatic system of beliefs and practices in the Western sense. According to my Catholic encyclopedia, its adherents require of religion not that it be true rather than false, but that it be good rather than bad.
I read that a couple of years ago, Buddhist extremists in Sri Lanka tried to make Buddhism a state religion and curtail religious freedom by prohibiting the conversion of Buddhists to any other religion.

I also own a copy of Pope John Paul II’s book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, in which he calls Buddhism, “in large measure an ‘atheistic system’”. He warned against the notion of extracting certain characteristics of Buddhism and incorporating them into Catholic practice. The incompatibilities between Catholicism and Buddhism became very apparent to me after reading the Pope’s writings relating Buddhism to the New Age movement and it’s Gnostic aspects. I take his insistence that Buddhist principles are to be gravely cautioned against seriously. The Holy Father was right---there is no comparison. For Buddhists, salvation is a privation of individual consciousness; for Catholics, and I would say most Christians like KFC, everlasting life is an eternal relationship with a loving Creator.

FKC WRITES: On the other hand, yes I can tell you lots about heaven. Are you really interested? Sounds like a great topic for an upcoming blog. Stay tuned....we can continue the discussion then.

Sounds good to me. (smiley face)!!!

BAKERSTREET WRITES:
... come on, lula. The Church forbade the decoration of trees for centuries. It wasn't until the middle ages that they allowed this "paradise tree" hijack of the pagan version, during the celebration of their Christmas hijack of the pagan holiday.

Given the first mention of the "Christmas Tree" comes in the 1600's, and pagans had been decorating trees with bits of metal for Saturnalia since the Roman Empire was in full swing, I tend to doubt there's no connection.

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First, I've seen many times now throughout the discussion. You are the first to use it with me. Would you mind telling me what it means?

You'll have a tough time convincing me that the CC hijacked Christmastide from some pagan feast other than the possible timing of Christmas around the pagan festival of the winter solstice when the return of light after the shortest day was celebrated. The light versus darkness theme is probably the most primitive Christmas Mass at dawn, the time of God's light shining upon us, who go through a valley of darkness. The oldest Christmas sermon extant was given around 383.

Christmas is not just a commemoration of Christ's birth, but an entire liturgical celebration of the great Emmanual, God-with-us mystery. A wealth of symbolism is used in the prayers and Bible readings to shed some llight on the fact that God humbled Himself and came to earth as a human person. Over the centuries popular piety has sentimentalized Christmas. This kind of piety is not reflected in the liturgical prayers and Bible readings during the Holy Mass or in the Church.

Epiphany is known as "Little Christmas" when the mysterious figures from the East, the Magi journeyed to adore and pay Christ homage. As a feast, it is even much older than our Christmas. The Epiphany event is also rich in many meanings such as that Jesus came for all people and that we must journey which always involves zig-zags to find the Lord who is within us, among us and around us. God is genuine love and love brings an inner undescribable peace. The whole world can be luminous with His presence working through us.

The Magi came to be known as Kings probably because of Psalm 72 written for the coronation ceremony of one of David's successors. The exchange of Epiphany gifts which derives from the gifts offered to Jesus by the 3 Kings St.Matt. 2:11, and more radically from the gift made to mankind by God in the birth of Emmanual among us. Catholics have always been taught that the exchange of gifts retain a Christian character and that the gifts offered should be a genuine expression of piety and free from extravagance, luxury and waste all of which are extraneous to the Christian origins of this practice.

The prophet Isaias lived 750 years before Christ. He used the image of a tree and spoke of the day when a descendant of King David would rule and all would be well. A shoot shall spring up from the stump of Jesse and from his roots a bud shall blossom. From medieval times, this image is depicted with symbols of various descendents of Jesse leading up to Jesus. Sometimes, during Advent, the Jesse tree is made and as the season moves along, new symbols are added symbolizing the approaching birth of Jesus. The symbols often include apples the sign of Adam and Eve. During the first week of Advent, the Gospel readings are from St. Matt. 1:1-3.

My Catholic encyclopedia tells me the Christmas tree is found first at Strasbourg in 1605.

"You'll have a tough time convincing me that the CC hijacked Christmastide from some pagan feast other than the possible timing of Christmas around the pagan festival of the winter solstice when the return of light after the shortest day was celebrated."

With all due respect, you've denied or brushed off about every negative reality I've ever posted about the Catholic Church. Why should this be any different?

Yes, I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the Catholics decided to have their holidays at the same time as pagan holidays. I'm sure it is a coincidence that after forbidding the decoration of trees for hundreds of years they later decided to decorate trees and call it a "Christmas Tree". Are you seriously posing the idea that Christmas, Easter, etc., accidentally ended up coinciding with pagan holidays... when the dates of the events they celebrate were probably very different??

Come on...

With all due respect, you've denied or brushed off about every negative reality I've ever posted about the Catholic Church. Why should this be any different?

it's not...lula's clear pattern here and in every other post has been to discount everything that rocks her preconceived world. in her world, only the CC can possibly ever be right. all other sources are viewed as some sort of deception from Satan, no matter how much sense they make, no matter how strong and complete the evidence is. i hate to use this term, but she is brainwashed. and it's sad and unfortunate to see it played out here at times. she is representative of how the church maintains it's power and wealth.

by the way, i'll retract the above statement if lula can actually point out any church practices or doctrines which she sees as wrong.

BAKERSTREET WRITES: With all due respect, you've denied or brushed off about every negative reality I've ever posted about the Catholic Church. Why should this be any different?

It isn’t. I’m as consistent as ever. There is much misinformation concerning the Church and Catholicism being bandied about. If you (or anyone) are in error over something concerning the Church, I correct that as best I can. Living the Faith is a learning process and researching some of the topics we’ve discussed benefits that process.

For instance, I didn’t know that the CC forbade decorating Christmas trees for hundreds of years. Where did you get that info? Assuming you are correct about that being forbidden then and an acceptable custom or tradition now is not surprising. The Church can and does change customs and traditions (traditions with a small ‘t’) from time to time. The Church may have assessed certain customs or traditions as a threat to the loss of Faith in some way hundreds of years ago and that is why they may have been forbidden. Today, they would not.

BAKERSTREET WRITES: Yes, I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the Catholics decided to have their holidays at the same time as pagan holidays. I'm sure it is a coincidence that after forbidding the decoration of trees for hundreds of years they later decided to decorate trees and call it a "Christmas Tree". Are you seriously posing the idea that Christmas, Easter, etc., accidentally ended up coinciding with pagan holidays... when the dates of the events they celebrate were probably very different??

In the case of how the Christmas tree was derived, you claim its from the pagan Yule tree and I’ve explained why it is not. Bakerstreet, there is nothing pagan about the CC, her doctrines or teachings. The Church is living today precisely because she has ever refused to part with her doctrines which are the doctrines of Christ. The heresies of the centuries parted with doctrines of the Christian Faith in deference to human opinions and they died in turn through the ages. Any attempt to adjust Christianity to men’s fallible speculations is suicidal.

The CC is and ever was the most bitter opponent of paganism. The Church was established by Christ, the Son of God, when the greater part of the world happened to be pagan. But this merely chronological connection does not prove that anything Catholic derives from paganism. The Church demands humility, mortification, rigid duty, and subjection to God---things human nature and paganism dislike. The CC adjusts men’s ideas to Christian doctrine and she stands and will stand until the end of time. Catholic doctrines are offensive to modern thought (neo-paganism) only because modern thought has ceased to be Christian and the Church refuses to cease to be Christian.

SCONN1 WRITES: SEAN CONNERS WRITES: it's not...lula's clear pattern here and in every other post has been to discount everything that rocks her preconceived world. in her world, only the CC can possibly ever be right. all other sources are viewed as some sort of deception from Satan, no matter how much sense they make, no matter how strong and complete the evidence is. i hate to use this term, but she is brainwashed. and it's sad and unfortunate to see it played out here at times. she is representative of how the church maintains it's power and wealth.

by the way, i'll retract the above statement if lula can actually point out any church practices or doctrines which she sees as wrong.

Sean, I cannot point out any Church doctrines which are wrong because they come directly from Christ who taught His Apostles and they in turn have handed down the Apostolic teachings through Catholic Church.
Are there some Church ‘practices’ meaning traditions (with a small “t”) or customs with which I disagree, the answer is yes.

Religion is natural to man almost as natural as breathing. Mine is Catholicism. Nothing in Catholicism forces me to believe or stay. upon examination of her claims, I find that she is the only possible one true Church historically, Scripturally, and logically. She must be infallible to have lasted over 2,000 years and will last until the end of time as Christ promised. When she speaks in the name of Christ, (ex cathedra), I reasonably accept her teachings. Once I learned the CC is divinely qualified to speak the truth in matters of faith and morals, I accept her teachings. Nothing could be more wise than that. In fact, it would be sheer folly to do otherwise.

The church stance on christmas trees early on (and later in the case of some protestant denominations) is based on the Bible:

"Jeremiah 1: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

I believe it was St. Martin that forbade the decoration of greenery very early in the church. You keep going back to Western European practices of pagan holidays, but the church was more often combating Roman festivals like Saturnalia.

At first the church wanted to completely discard these pagan practices, but when the futility of the process was apparent they decided instead to hijack them and recast them as Christian in nature. Could you explain why, if you believe it to be coincidental, they chose the dates they chose for Easter and Christmas?

It would be like praying to "smart

Damn! And here I thought it would work!

Baker that is Jeremiah Chap 10 (not 1) and it's not really referring to a Christmas tree but I do agree with you that it's a pagan practice as stated in Jeremiah.

Some do point to this as worshipping our modern Christmas tree and that's ridiculous. There were no such thing as Christmas Trees in Jeremiah's day. This has all to do with idol worship. Idols were fashioned out of these trees.

He's condemning the idol worship of his day. He reminds them that they go out to the woods, cut down a tree, shape it into an image, deck it with silver and gold, fasten it with nails—and that’s their god!

Now, if any of you are bowing down and worshipping your Christmas Tree then yes, this condemnation is for you.

He goes onto say in v6 that the Lord cannot be compared to anything. How ridiculous it is to turn from the true and living God to worship anything else around you that is not God, even a tree no less.

Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might [Jer. 10:6]

and continues in v11 to say:

Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens [Jer. 10:11].

There's much about trees being used to fashion idols. This was a very common practice in OT times. Here's another one: Isa 44

14He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. 15Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. 16He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire: 17And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

"Baker that is Jeremiah Chap 10 (not 1) and it's not really referring to a Christmas tree but I do agree with you that it's a pagan practice as stated in Jeremiah."

Typo. And it probably wouldn't be referring to anything Christmas since Jesus hadn't been born yet.

"Now, if any of you are bowing down and worshipping your Christmas Tree then yes, this condemnation is for you. "

...like... if people were actually bowing and worshiping Santa...

what I do know is that heaven will be where the King of Peace will rule in the midst of us. There will be no more wars or rumors of wars. There will be no more sickness or disease. Most of all there will be no more death. It will be the Garden of Eden all over, this time with the King of Kings ruling. There will be "true" peace and safety as he does so.

And they all lived happily ever after.