Is It Possible or Impossible?
Published on October 23, 2006 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
One of the most frequent arguments leveled against the infallibility of the Bible is based upon the fact that the Bible was written by human authors. Human beings are fallible. Since the Bible was written by these fallible human beings, it necessarily follows that the Bible is fallible. Or so the argument goes. As Roman Catholic theologian Bruce Vawter writes, "A human literature containing no error would indeed be a contradiction in terms, since nothing is more human than to err."

Although we often hear this accusation, it just is not correct. We grant that human beings do make mistakes, and that they make them often. But they do not necessarily make mistakes in all cases, and they do not necessarily have to make mistakes.

For example, several years ago one of the authors was teaching a class oon the reliability of the Bible. For it, he had typed up a one page outline of the course. The finished product was inerrant; it had no typographical errors, no mistakes in copying from the hand-written original. Although the author was human and was prone to make mistakes, he was in fact infallible in this instance.

The point is this: It is not impossible for a human being to perform a mistake free act. It is not impossible for fallible man to correctly record both sayings and events. Thus to rule out the possibility of an inerrant Bible by appealing to the fallibility of men does not hold up.

John Warwick Montgomery, lawyer/theologian, illustrates this truth:


The directions for operating my washing machine for example are literally infallible; if I do just what they say, the machine will respond. Euclid's Geometry is a book of perfect internal consistency; grant the axioms and the proofs follow inexorably. From such examples (and they readily be multiplied) we must conclude that human beings, though they often err, need not err in all particular instances.



To be sure, the production over centuries of sixty-six inerrant and mutually consistent books by different authors is a tall order-and we cheerfully appeal to God's Spirit to achieve it-but the point remains that there is nothing metaphysically inhuman or against human nature in such a possibility. If there were, have we considered the implications for Christology? The incarnate Christ, as a real man, would also have had to err; and we have already seen that error in His teachings would totally negate the revelational value of the incarnation, leaving man as much in the dark as to the meaning of life and salvation as if no incarnation had occurred at all (God's Inerrant Word, pg33
)

We also believe that there is sufficient evidence that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. The Scriptures themselves testify, "All Scripture is God-breathed." If they contain error, then one must call it God-inspired error. This is totally incompatible with the nature of God as revealed in the Bible. For example, Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie. John 17:17 says "Thy word is truth."

Examples could be multiplied. The testimony of Scripture is clear. God used fallible men to receive and record His infallible Word so that it would reach us, correct and without error. Sounds difficult? With our God it's not. As he said, "Behold I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?"

Josh McDowell
"Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity"

Comments (Page 7)
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on Nov 07, 2006
the Holy Inquisition


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Wow, I just laughed so hard I spit milk all over my table. You should really look into a career as a stand-up comedian, lulabelle, you'd go far, my dear.

That you would call such a barbaric, insipid, evil act "holy" is laughable. Your defense of it is pitiable. Your swallowing of faith is saddening. Your parroting of said faith more so.

I hope that the Lord will open your eyes and that you'll see that not a whole lot about any of this is "holy". I'll keep ya in my prayers . . .
on Nov 07, 2006
OF GALILEO BAKERSTREET SAYS: "You are sitting here excusing the imprisonment of a human being for their philosophical beliefs."

So far there have been 44 apocryphal embellishments of Galileo case. Yours, Bakerstreet, makes the 45 . Galileo remained loyal to the Church and was even carried to daily Mass when he became too feeble to walk.

During the investigation, Galileo lived in the Vatican, had a servant, food and wine, provided by a Tuscan ambassador.

The complaint against him was that he insisted on changing Scripture to conform to his scientific findings which were unproven. Descartes remarked that the action taken against him was merely disciplinarian of a committee and the Pope never confirmed the verdict. At 70, Galileo was put under his own "house arrest" where he lived very comfortably and where he continued to work on motion and gravity. The process against Galileo was reasonable and just.

Jesus forbid the changing of Scripture and the Holy Inquisition upheld that.

Too bad the textbooks today our children read make free with their riducluous embellishments and false accusations against the CC over her treatment of Galileo. How does it go---tell lies over and over and soon enough people will believe.

BAKERSTREET REMARKS ON: The advisors of the Inquisition did not base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicius."

Odd, then that the prosecutor in the case would commit himself to statements like:
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." -Cardinal Bellarmine

LIKE BILL O'REILLY SAYS, NAME AND TOWN, ----CITE THE SOURCE--OR IT'S JUST ONE OF THOSE RIDICULOUS EMBELLISHMENTS....

HERE IS ST. ROBERT BELLARMINE'S POSITION: "I SAY THAT IF THERE WERE A TRUE DEMONSTRATION THAT THE SUN IS AT THE CENTER OF THE WORLD AND THE EARTH IN THE THIRD HEAVEN, AND THAT THE SUN DOES NOT CIRCLE THE EARTH BUT THE EARTH CIRCLES THE SUN, THEN ONE WOULD HAVE TO PROCEED WITH GREAT CARE IN EXPLAINING THE SCRIPTURES THAT APPEAR CONTRARY, AND SAY RATHER THAT WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEM THAN THAT WHAT IS DEMONSTRATED IS FALSE. BUT I WILL NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SUCH A DEMONSTRATION, UNTIL IT IS SHOWN TO ME."

I said, "The advisors of the Inquisition did not base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicius."


BAKERSTREET SAID: I have to come back for a moment just to point out that your statement above was not true.
Copernicus's works were listed on the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum" at the time. It remained a forbidden book until 1757, over a hundred years after Galileo's trial.

AS I SAID, THE CHURCH DID NOT CONDEMN COPERNICIUS (the person)....who was a priest by the way. OF HIS WRITING, IN FACT, COPERNICICUS' "De Revolutionibus Orbium" HAD BEEN IN PRINT FOR NEARLY 70 YEARS BEFORE THE CHURCH PLACED ANY RESTRICTIONS ON ITS TEACHINGS. THIS WAS TRIGGERED BY GALILEO'S "Letter to Castelli", AN APOLOGY FOR COPERNICANISM WHICH ADVOCATED A FIGURATIVE READING OF SCRIPTURE IN ORDER TO RESOLVE THE APPARENT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE.

While the Catholic Church ALLOWED the publication of Copernicus' work, Calvin and Luther condemned it on spiritual grounds. Some of the technical difficulties were dealt with by Kepler; they made the geocentric theory more plausible, but Kepler was persecuted by the Protestants in Tubingen and had to flee to the Jesuits for protection in 1596.


on Nov 08, 2006

BAKERSTREET SAID: I was talking about your idolatrous belief that a book can be perfect.

THE BOOK IS PERFECT (INERRANT) BECAUSE GOD IS THE PRINCIPLE AUTHOR OF SCRIPTURE. GOD IS BY NATURE TRUTH ITSELF AND IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH ERROR.

on Nov 08, 2006
I could easily equate your religion with idolatry, but I wasn't talking about catholicism, as KFC isn't catholic. I was talking about your idolatrous belief that a book can be perfect


I knew that. But Lulabelle is new to JU Town and doesn't know you Baker, like I know you.....  

you really need to take a chill pill Baker. You seem very agitated. I thought somewhere you aluded to the fact that you favor the CC? Maybe it was tongue in cheek? Dang, I thought maybe you were a converted Catholic so now I'm back to thinking you're just a spiritulist.

Lulabelle is a sold out Catholic. I myself think she's got her ladder going up the wrong bell tower, but I do admire her faithfulness to the church she believes in. We share the Good News and that's a very important tenant to the Faith.

I say this as I dust off my history books.

Peace

on Nov 08, 2006

THE BOOK IS PERFECT (INERRANT) BECAUSE GOD IS THE PRINCIPLE AUTHOR OF SCRIPTURE. GOD IS BY NATURE TRUTH ITSELF AND IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH ERROR


Baker thinks it's a good book just errant since it's written by men.

Some say it's inspired but not inerrant. That just boggles my mind. If that's the case, we have God inspired error? I have to ask as I usually do, are they reading the same book I am? I am absolutely amazed at what I'm reading. The more I dig and lately the more I study Jewish history I'm absolutely convinced it's a book that is what it says it is....the absolute word of God to all mankind.







on Nov 08, 2006
lulabelle is sitting here, stolidly excusing the imprisoning someone for their beliefs. She calls barbaric, genocidal religious inquisition "holy". People who call evil good have no fear of God, and those who'd excuse such barbarity have no love for Jesus's teachings.

Even if you believe her whitewashed version of the Galileo situation, she's STILL excusing the imprisonment of a man for his religious beliefs. The "holy" inquisition was an affront to Christianity, and if anyone deserves to burn in hell it is people who did such horrific things. I could not sleep well knowing I had called them "holy".

There are catholics I have admired, and I don't believe the religion is completely soiled. If there is anything soiling it it would have to be people like you lulabelle. I won't even compliment you further with discussion, because from your arguments I can see that you'd be right there applauding the inquisition if they were abusing any of us.

Penitençagite! People like those you praise get what is coming to them eventually. I wouldn't stand alongside them if I were you.

"Some say it's inspired but not inerrant. That just boggles my mind. If that's the case, we have God inspired error?"


Again, I'll ask: you read koine greek? You, yourself say that the original is what is inerrant, and the translations aren't.

Does it make any more sense that God would give his message to a few people, then not bother to see that it got to anyone else? If you had a message that would be the very salvation of people's souls, would you sit and watch while they didn't get it? What kind of father would you be?

Why would God go to the trouble and then not bother to bind it all into translated canon for hundreds of years? Didn't he care about the Eskimos and the Aborigines and the Japanese? Didn't they deserve the "inerrant" word for the centuries that people argued about what the bible should be?

Those folks in the Middle East must have been God's picks, because in your description of events he didn't seem to care whether anyone else got His message or not. You can't really believe that, can you? Why pretend this is God's work when it is so obviously the product of mankind?





P.S. KFC: We differ a lot, but what little respect I had for you has gone out the window watching you coddle this inquisition apologist. She's excusing, nay praising the people who tortured and burned people just like you for believing just what you believe. I'm betting if the inquisition started again, (as I think you believe it might), she'd be right there applauding while you are on the rack.

Inerrancy is that important to you that you'd sit quietly and overlook someone using your blog to excuse the inquisition? It just goes to show that fundamentalist Christianity is really all about "kicking". I think you'd argue alongside Satan if you thought it would give your argument a boost.
on Nov 08, 2006
Baker,

I could never be a Catholic again for many reasons and one would be the history of the CC. I abhor the thought of the inquisition and would most likely had been burned at the stake myself if I lived in those times. I admire Luther and what he did. In my book he's a hero. But he came from a long line of heroes, those willing to die to put God's word in our hands.

In Orlando there's a Scriptorium that has some of the oldest collection of biblical manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts in the world. These bibles are in the Old English, Greek, and Latin. Room by room they walk you thru the history of the bible, and it's quite sobering and not unlike what we see from a secular level on what's going on in our country in the realm of politics. We thumb our noses now at those who gave their lives for our freedoms whether it be politically or spiritually. Many were burned at the stake when found out by the Powerful CC. Bibles were burned. At one point the bible was written in 500 languages (before the true inception of the CC) and after reduced to only one.....the Latin Vulgate. It's not called the Dark Ages for no reason. If they possibly could I think the light of God would have been snuffed out. But God is in control. Like I've said a million times. God's word is always a pall bearer to its enemies funerals. While they all pass away the word of God will not and never will.

So no, I've already said I'm no fan of the CC, Lulabelle knows this, but what we do agree on is the essentials. To be called a Catholic or an Evangelical is not an Essential. To believe that Jesus was born for our salvation with no hope in another and left behind his word for us to abide in is much more important than where we worship on Sunday.

on Nov 08, 2006
I could easily equate your religion with idolatry


it's totally easy to equate catholicism to idolitry. catholics pray to saints, that's an idol and not God. catholics pray and worship mary, again, she is not God, she is an idol. they put mary up over all other women of the world, but God says all of his children are equal in his eyes...that's idolitry.

on Nov 08, 2006
"So no, I've already said I'm no fan of the CC, Lulabelle knows this, but what we do agree on is the essentials. To be called a Catholic or an Evangelical is not an Essential. To believe that Jesus was born for our salvation with no hope in another and left behind his word for us to abide in is much more important than where we worship on Sunday. "


If this were simple guilt by association you'd have a point. In fact, if you bother to read what she says, she matter-of-factly excuses the inquisition and calls it "holy". Has she one, single time so far condemned what the inquisition did? Do you believe people should face life imprisonment, torture, death by burning, etc., because people don't believe the "truth"?

Lulabelle is beyond just disagreeing with you on a few doctrinal points. She says:

"Jesus forbid the changing of Scripture and the Holy Inquisition upheld that."


They "upheld" a lot. They wiped out entire communities, and crushed civilizations. You cozy up to that evil if you like, but winning an argument isn't worth that to me. She could agree with everything I say and I'd still find her perspective repulsive.

You reduce that to "she's got her ladder going up the wrong bell tower" if you want. What we tolerate speaks volumes about us.
on Nov 08, 2006
KFC---"sold out Catholic". you've got me pegged! Yes, we DO share the GOOD NEWS OF SALVATION.

I wonder if Bakerstreet who said on Oct. 24 "Charity DOES NOT MEAN LOVE" still thinks that.

Just a slight correction: I don't believe IN the Catholic Church; I believe IN God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost with the help of the CChurch's
teachings which come from written and oral Revelation.

I'm not really computer savvy and don't have those cute faces to plug in, but would here if I could.

Reply by BAKERSTREET; ET AL---
lulabelle is sitting here, stolidly excusing the imprisoning someone for their beliefs.

GALILEO WASN'T IMPRISONED. HE WAS IN MILD DETENTION IN A VILLA; HIS OWN VILLA.

BY SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON GALILEO, I HAVEN'T EXCUSED OR DEFENDED THE DISGRACEFUL CRUELTY OF THE INQUISTION. NOT AT ALL. NOR WILL I. I ABHOR THOSE TIMES IN CHURCH HISTORY, BOTH CATHOLIC AND PROTESTANT. I WISH IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, BUT HISTORY CAN'T BE WISHED AWAY. HOWEVER, IT CAN BE DISCUSSED IN HONEST AND FORTHRIGHT TERMS.

THE POINT THAT I WILL ATTEMPT TO MAKE IS THAT THE MERE EXISTENCE OF THE INQUISITION DOES NOT DISPROVE THE CHURCH'S CREDENTIALS AS BEING THE ONE. TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.

FOLLOWERS OF ALL RELIGIONS HAVE SINNED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. NONE GET A FREE PASS.

IT SEEMS BAKERSTREET WANTS A FREE RIDE ON VIOLENCE.

HAS HE EVER SEEN PICTURES OF BURNING CARS IN NORTHERN IRELAND?

WHY DID THE CONGREGATIONAL CHURCH PUT WOMEN TO DEATH IN THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS IN 1692?

HISTORY TELLS US ALTHOUGH NOT IN MODERN TEXTBOOKS, THAT IN COLONIAL DAYS IN NEW ENGLAND, PEOPLE WERE FORCED TO GO TO CHURCH FOR HOURS ON END. AND DURING THE SERVICE, A BERNARD GUI TYPE WOULD MAKE USE OF A TITHING POLE THAT HAD A BOXING GLOVE ATTAHED. HE WOULD GO AROUND AND HIT PEOPLE WITH IT IF THEY SEEMED NOT TO BE PAYING ATTENTION. WHY DID THEY USE THAT? DIDN'T THIS PROHIBIT FREEDOM IN CHURCH? WHAT ABOUT THE MAJOR ROBERT PIKE INCIDENT WITH THE 2 QUAKER WOMEN?

AND THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING, I CAN GO ON......TO THE ENGLISH PROTESTANT ENLIGHTENMENT ...FLOGGINGS, SPREAD EAGLE FOR STEALING A TEAPOT OR COAT... YOU ARE IN A GLASS HOUSE.....

you bring up existence of the inqisition to prove something bad about the CC. I've already said the CC contains sinners, everyone of us are right up to the top to persons who are in authority. Are Protestants sinners too?


YOU THINK THE INQUISTION REVEALS THE CC NOT TO BE THE TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST. CAlling the CC into question over wrong-doing of individual Catholics does not prove the Church false....and the Church certainly has not been false to its commission. BUT NO DEGREE OF UNSAINTLINESS ON THE PART OF CATHOLICS ever since apostolic times PROVES THE CHURCH TO BE OTHER THAN WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE....


It's time to make some lunch......


to be continued......

Peace and blessings to all....





YOU JUST BRING




THERE ARE 5 FORMS OF THE INQUISITION SPREAD OVER 6 CENTURIES AND HALF A CONTINENT.



on Nov 08, 2006
"GALILEO WASN'T IMPRISONED. HE WAS IN MILD DETENTION IN A VILLA; HIS OWN VILLA.


"Mild" house arrest... for life. He got that only because he was well liked. Had he not been you know full well what would have been done to him. Do you believe people should face death, torture, imprisonment, or even shunning for their religious beliefs?

"BY SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON GALILEO, I HAVEN'T EXCUSED OR DEFENDED THE DISGRACEFUL CRUELTY OF THE INQUISTION. NOT AT ALL. NOR WILL I. I ABHOR THOSE TIMES IN CHURCH HISTORY, BOTH CATHOLIC AND PROTESTANT"


That might be a TAD more believable if you didn't call it "holy" and make excuses for it, like downplaying people being punished for their religious beliefs.

"FOLLOWERS OF ALL RELIGIONS HAVE SINNED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. NONE GET A FREE PASS. "


On the contrary, according to you Galileo's treatment was just following Christ's orders, right?

"Jesus forbid the changing of Scripture and the Holy Inquisition upheld that."


"WHY DID THE CONGREGATIONAL CHURCH PUT WOMEN TO DEATH IN THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS IN 16"


Because they were scum. Now, catch me calling them "holy" if you can.

"you bring up existence of the inqisition to prove something bad about the CC."


No, you listed reasons that the Catholic Church was obviously God's one true church. I pointed out that there were vast numbers of reasons that they aren't. The inquisition wasn't a bunch of freelancers, it was church policy.

"Are Protestants sinners too?


Every single one. Most are hypocrites. I believe a majority don't even claim the religion honestly. Very few brush off murder, genocide, torture and the like, though.

"YOU THINK THE INQUISTION REVEALS THE CC NOT TO BE THE TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST. "


By their fruits...

"CAlling the CC into question over wrong-doing of individual Catholics does not prove the Church false..."


The inquisition was NOT individuals, it was the official stance of the church for centuries. The pope is supposedly the heir of Peter and God's annoited on earth, and the popes in question were party to the inquisition.

"BUT NO DEGREE OF UNSAINTLINESS ON THE PART OF CATHOLICS ever since apostolic times PROVES THE CHURCH TO BE OTHER THAN WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE...."


And satan is an angel. If we start going on technicalities and forgetting the point, we'd all be... well, medieval catholics...
on Nov 08, 2006
YOU THINK THE INQUISTION REVEALS THE CC NOT TO BE THE TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST.


Once again, I burst into laughter, this time spewing Gatorade (cool blue flavored this time) across my entire floor.

JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA!

The Inquisition isn't the only thing that reveals the Catholic Church not to be the true church founded by Christ . . everything about it does.

There is absolutely nothing of Christ's apostolic church in the Catholic church, except blithe lip service to God. Zilch. Nada.

There are a lot of wonderful Catholics out there, but the Church, as an institution, is abhorrent.

It does have one good thing going for it - it is messed up enough that when true servants of God show up on many Catholic's doorsteps with the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they are more than willing to accept it and reject the joke that Catholicism has become.
on Nov 08, 2006
There are a lot of wonderful Catholics out there, but the Church, as an institution, is abhorrent.

i couldn't agree more. i hope lula doesn't take our comments as mean spirited and realize we all want her to find God. Unfortunately, she is one of millions that found a corrupt church of man and serves it instead of truly finding God and serving him.

on Nov 08, 2006
i hope lula doesn't take our comments as mean spirited and realize we all want her to find God.


Amen. And amen.
on Nov 08, 2006
I've said more than once that the dedication to tradition and the strength of conviction is very, very attractive. More than once I've been tempted by the comfort of a church that is what it is, and refuses to bow to the whims of fad.

The downside of that, though, comes when you see people SO stolid in their traditionalism that they can utter the words "holy inquisition". That's what always stops me from being wooed in that direction. In the end, the Catholic Church hasn't really changed, they've just accepted that they no longer have the might to impose as they once did.

I believe that if they could, we'd see little difference between the modern church and that of Bernardo Gui. I think anyone who reads lulabelle's posts, and sees her take on the church's actions, would have a hard time arguing otherwise. I don't believe many modern Catholics would tolerate it, but then again, they had ways of making people fall into line, didn't they?
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