Is It Possible or Impossible?
Published on October 23, 2006 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
One of the most frequent arguments leveled against the infallibility of the Bible is based upon the fact that the Bible was written by human authors. Human beings are fallible. Since the Bible was written by these fallible human beings, it necessarily follows that the Bible is fallible. Or so the argument goes. As Roman Catholic theologian Bruce Vawter writes, "A human literature containing no error would indeed be a contradiction in terms, since nothing is more human than to err."

Although we often hear this accusation, it just is not correct. We grant that human beings do make mistakes, and that they make them often. But they do not necessarily make mistakes in all cases, and they do not necessarily have to make mistakes.

For example, several years ago one of the authors was teaching a class oon the reliability of the Bible. For it, he had typed up a one page outline of the course. The finished product was inerrant; it had no typographical errors, no mistakes in copying from the hand-written original. Although the author was human and was prone to make mistakes, he was in fact infallible in this instance.

The point is this: It is not impossible for a human being to perform a mistake free act. It is not impossible for fallible man to correctly record both sayings and events. Thus to rule out the possibility of an inerrant Bible by appealing to the fallibility of men does not hold up.

John Warwick Montgomery, lawyer/theologian, illustrates this truth:


The directions for operating my washing machine for example are literally infallible; if I do just what they say, the machine will respond. Euclid's Geometry is a book of perfect internal consistency; grant the axioms and the proofs follow inexorably. From such examples (and they readily be multiplied) we must conclude that human beings, though they often err, need not err in all particular instances.



To be sure, the production over centuries of sixty-six inerrant and mutually consistent books by different authors is a tall order-and we cheerfully appeal to God's Spirit to achieve it-but the point remains that there is nothing metaphysically inhuman or against human nature in such a possibility. If there were, have we considered the implications for Christology? The incarnate Christ, as a real man, would also have had to err; and we have already seen that error in His teachings would totally negate the revelational value of the incarnation, leaving man as much in the dark as to the meaning of life and salvation as if no incarnation had occurred at all (God's Inerrant Word, pg33
)

We also believe that there is sufficient evidence that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. The Scriptures themselves testify, "All Scripture is God-breathed." If they contain error, then one must call it God-inspired error. This is totally incompatible with the nature of God as revealed in the Bible. For example, Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie. John 17:17 says "Thy word is truth."

Examples could be multiplied. The testimony of Scripture is clear. God used fallible men to receive and record His infallible Word so that it would reach us, correct and without error. Sounds difficult? With our God it's not. As he said, "Behold I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?"

Josh McDowell
"Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity"

Comments (Page 9)
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on Nov 10, 2006
Reply By: Sean Conners, a.k.a. SConn1 Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006
i'm just going to add one more thing to this discussion.

you claim, lula, that the cc is the "one true church" founded by christ personally. YES, THAT IS WHAT I CLAIM.

i disagree with this and the passage that allegedly gave the catholic church it's so called authority.

the much reffered to quote is ...""... thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18

YES, SCONN1 this is one part of all the evidence taken together that shows Jesus Christ established a particular Church, (not a federation of churches) as many people imagine He did. When Christ told Simon Peter, the first Pope, those words, He made a promise to His Church that He has faithfully kept from that day.

The Church wasn't merely sent forth to preach and then move on. The Lord endowed the Church with His own authority to teach in His name:

"He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despitheth you, despiseth me, and he that despiseths me despiseths the one who sent me." St. Luke 10:16.
"And I say to thee;that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (not churches of every demomination), and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
And I shall give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
on Nov 10, 2006
What you don't say, lulabelle, is why your claim to these scriptures is any more authoritative than KFC's. Peter is about as related to your inquisition popes as he was to Henry VIII.
on Nov 13, 2006
Catholics believe that in 33 AD Christ founded a definite, clearly visible religious society which is still in the world today, the ONe, Holy, Catholic Apostolic Church, governed by the Pope today, St. Benedict XVI, reigning in Rome as the 265th successor to St. Peter.

The Gospels tell us that Our Lord said He would found a Church (one only) and that this Church could not be overcome.

After spending the night in prayer, Christ chose His 12 Apostles and it is clear from His words to them He was intent upon establishing the Church having a central authority and a unity of doctrine which He revealed in written and oral Tradition. The demarcation of function is outlined in St. Mark 4:11. They are to teach, St. Matt. 28:19-20; to govern 18:18; and to sanctify St. Matt. 28:18-19; St.John 20:23.

Especially in light of all the references to St. Peter, from Christ's first calling, changing his name and giving him the keys to the Kingdom to his life story after the Crucification, there is no escaping the conclusion that Jesus elected Peter to be the Church's foundation and conferred special authority and position on Peter. Peter, through the bestowal of the keys from Jesus obtains primacy of the whole CHurch. The precedent for this transfer of power stems from the account of Isaiah 22:22.

I appreciate that KFC writes essays from which interchange of thought has resulted. If truth has any value, the search for it must go on, even though it hurts at times. Even this though, there is no need for discussion to degrade into name-calling and disrespect for the person. To be sure, KFC and I have major doctrinal differences. On those I expect that we shall discuss in charity and respect for one another just as we have on those in which we are in agreement.

The only commonality I can see between St. Peter and Henry VIII is that they both held positions of authority. St. Peter as head of the infant Catholic Church as described above; Henry VIII as self-named, self-appointed head of the ANglican Church, aka the Church of England. The Anglican Church does not belong to the ancient Catholic Church. It commenced its existence with the Protestant Revolution some 400 years ago and has no connection with the previously existing Catholic Church in England. Henry was not going to be told even by the Pope to keep God's law and so he rebelled and suppressed the CC and that was the genesis of Anglicanism. Anglicanism is a house of confusion and today is quickly fading into religious irrelevance.
on Nov 13, 2006
My point wasn't the Peter was similar to Henry VIII. Quite the opposite. My point was Peter is about as related to the Catholic Church of the inquisition as he was to Henry VIII. Catholicism is far more the child of the dark ages than it is the child of Peter and the early church.

You pretend you can draw a constant doctrinal line back to Christ, and therefore you have the "pure" form of Christianity. All this outrage, excess, and horror you brush off in between begs a different conclusion. Every step your church took in that direction perverted this supposed purity, until now it is barely recognizable.

So, what you have in both Catholicism and Protestantism is religion that is based more upon itself and the social values of the people in question than Peter and the original church. No one knows much at all about the "original" church other that what is construed from scripture, and you can see with the insane diversity in Christian religion that such is not in any way obvious to objectively discern.
on Nov 13, 2006
Bakerstreet writes: (Of Protestantism and Catholicism) They're both far too distant from who I am and what I believe to cause guilt by association.

I must admit that you have peaked my interest with this statement. Do you care to say "who you are" and "what you believe"?
on Nov 13, 2006
"Bakerstreet writes: (Of Protestantism and Catholicism) They're both far too distant from who I am and what I believe to cause guilt by association."


I'm sorry, could you quote where I said that? I'm beginning to think that you are just deranged. Bearing false witness was a sin, last time I checked. Please show me where I claimed my beliefs are more authoritative. You are the one making empty claims of authenticity.

I am, and have been, addressing your statement that the Catholic Church is the one, true church. I don't blame you for trying to shift focus away from the obvious emptiness of your claim, but don't expect people to buy it.

As a matter of fact I said openly that "No one knows". You are projecting your own arrogance on me, I think.
on Nov 13, 2006
BAKERSTREET THIS IS A CUT AND PASTE FROM YOUR Reply By: BakerStreet Posted: Friday, November 10, 2006
"On this, you live in a glass house, KFC."
Who said KFC lives in Calvin's house? You can't fathom anything but this catholic versus protestant thing. I'd bet KFC wouldn't think either the Catholic Church OR Calvin are any more authoritative. Try hard and you might be able to grasp the idea of people having their own relationship with God without all this idolatry and false religion.
lulabelle seems to think it comes down to whether catholocism or protestantism is the "real" thing. You need to look into it and see that there are sects of protestantism that think only their CHURCH is right. Poking Calvin to me is no different than poking the Catholic Church. They're both far too distant from who I am and what I believe to cause guilt by association.

I quoted you from the last line of this posting of yours. You said, "They're both far too distant from who I am and what I believe to cause guilt by association."

I went ahead and asked who are you and what do you believe.


Now, in your latest posting you say, "please show me where I claimed my beliefs are more authoritive." I didn't say you claimed your beliefs are more authoritative----as I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE AND THAT IS WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION. I'M STILL TRYING TO ASCERTAIN WHAT YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE PERTAINING TO THIS DISCUSSION.

If you don't want to say, then OK, forget it.




on Nov 13, 2006
Ah, k. Didn't realize you were responding to a post that far back. I was responding there to the fact that you were, again, pretending that I was somehow playing advocate for protestantism in a prod vs. catholic dual.

I was simply stating there that both neither the protestants nor the catholics would claim to have much to do with my beliefs, as KFC can surely attest to. I was saying that trying to shame me with the protestant witch trials wasn't any more effective than shaming me with the catholic witch trials. I don't think protestants really have any more of a clue, frankly.

I haven't claimed my beliefs are any more accurate or authoritative than yours. I'm questioning why you consider yours to be so obviously so.
on Nov 13, 2006
I believe the history of the Church at the time of the Apostles shows that the true Catholic idea was in undisputed possession. Then, the Church was clearly regarded as a clear-cut easily discernably society of which the Apostles were the chief officers. They appointed deacons as subsidiary officers and "Episkopoi" (priests) to rule the infant Church. In 50 AD, at the Council of the Apostles held at Jerusalem, Peter made a solemn juridical statement that the Gentiles are not to be excluded from the Church. St. Paul is more than clear in his conception of the Church Christ founded. "But if a man not know how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the CHurch of God?....which is the CHurch of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth." 1Tim 3:5, 15. In the succeeding chapter, he refers to TImothy's own ordination as Bishop. Writing to Titus he told him, FOr this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou should set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee." In Ephesians, is the well known passage, " And he gave some apostles, and some prophets and other some evangelists and other some pastors and doctors for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of CHrist." They were the seed of the CHurch.

I believe that CHrist founded the CC. Christ put the whole of His religion into His Church which He identifies with Himself. As in Ephesians where he tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loves His Church.

There are 4 credentials which the CC shows to prove that it alone represents authentic, undiluted Christianity to the world today. The 4 outwardly marks or visible signs are Oneness (unity), Catholiciticy, Holiness and Apostolicity. The Church is One becasue all of her members agree in one Faith, have all the same Sacrifice and Sacraments and are all united under one head.

The Church is holy becasue she teaches a holy doctrine, offers all her members the means of holiness, and is distinguished by the eminent holiness of all the Saints. Catholicity means whole, universal to all, becasue she subsists in all ages, teaches all nations, and is the one Ark of Salvation for all. The CHurch is Apostolic becasue she holds the doctrines and Traditions of the Apostles and becasue through the unbroken succession of her pastors, she derives her priestly Orders and her Mission from them.

Consider the history of mankind. It is the story of almost continual war, of the supplanting of one dynasty by another, of the slavery of a nation by its neighbors, of revolt, invasion, aggression, oppression, ----you must get my point. Our own times are not so vastly different in any of these respects.

There is no world unity and certainly there is no national unity. It seems to be getting worse. History shows us the study of difference---of political, cultural, moral, ethnological, geographical, religious differences. History has proven men cannot agree. They aim at unity, but fail to achieve.

That's becasue world unity is not in nature. It's not natural for man to agree on questions of religion, of government of morals. therefore, if there is in the world a society which can prove that it existed throughout the CHristian era in practically all places and has satisfied the needs of every type of man and class of man and yet possesses in itself unity of teaching, of government, of life and morals, then such a society is more than natural. It is a miracle in itself. And that is precisely what we claim for the CC. Its unity and its universality existing together are more than mere natural characteristics. They are the marks of a society possessing a constitution that is divine.

The CC exists because she has Christ as her founder, because she practices the principles Christ gave her and because of CHrist's promise that the world would not overcome her. The fact that the Church exists today is a supernatural phenomenon one defying natural explanation.

With the power Christ claimed in heaven and on earth, as the Son of God and as the Messiah sent by God, He sent them to evangelize the world. He gave them the power to govern, to teach and to santiify. The spiritual power of the Apostles (forgiving sins) was established by the will of God. And since the Apostles would not live forever, this authority was to descend to successors. This authority, within its own sphere, has no limits and is guaranteed against abuse or error by divine power. In St. Luke, CHrist prays for one man, St. Peter. Peter was to strengthen the Faith and this is carried with the succession of bishops. This is all confirmed in the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.
on Nov 13, 2006
"I believe that CHrist founded the CC. Christ put the whole of His religion into His Church which He identifies with Himself. As in Ephesians where he tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loves His Church."


You say that the "whole" of your religion comes from Christ. Given that we can track historically how canon law evolved, when particular practices became "official", etc., how much of your actual religious practice would you say was in practice during the time of the apostles?

If Jesus gave all this procedure, technicality, and officiousness to Peter to enact, why did it take so long to re-discover it? Do you really look back to the sermon on the mount and pretend all this, the vestments and confessionals and inquisitions and saints and purgatory and relics and sacraments...

...you really believe that all of it came from Jesus? Do you see how someone can look back and church history and wonder how it has anything to do with what is portrayed in the Bible, especially given how long it took for the Catholic Church themselves to codify and regulate it?
on Nov 14, 2006
Your questions are thoughtful and for me to adequately and fully answer them I believer would take much space than this blog allows; and let's not forget to mention the wrath I will take from KFC for hijacking it in her absence while she according to a previous posting is cruising.

Bakerstreet asks: You say that the "whole" of your religion comes from Christ. Given that we can track historically how canon law evolved, when particular practices became "official", etc., how much of your actual religious practice would you say was in practice during the time of the apostles?

The short answer is all of the CC's actual religious practice as far as what was revealed in Revelation (written and oral Tradition) was in practice during the time of the Apostles. Christ prepared His Apostles and followers for the Church by first speaking to them about "the kingdom". The Jews at the time certainly didn't understand Him, they were looking for a political empire and not the spiritual nature of promises of the prophets. The kindgom is the collectivity of all those who believe in CHrist and His teachings.

Christ said to Pilate: "For this was I born, and for this I came into the world that I should give testimony to the truth." His kingdom is primarily a kingdom of truth. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Christ is the King of the kingdom which is the Church and the Church is the bulwark and pillar of truth.

The kingdom is a new entity based on new revelation which came after John the Baptist to complete the Law and the prophets. This revelation Jesus calls the word of the kingdom. St. Matt. 6:31, 13:11, 16, 17, 19,44,45. St. Luke 16:16; St. Mark 1:15. The Law and the prophets were until John; "from that time the kingdom of God is preached and everyone useth violence toward it."

Here, Jesus isn't speaking of the final kingdom of Heaven nor of the sovereignity of God in men's hearts, but of an external institution of some kind. The kingdom of God embraces in this life worthy and unworthy members. (I have mentioned this time and again.) The great sin of the Jews consisted in their refusal to accept the word of the kingdom. Many of the Jews present during the Last Supper found Jesus' words, "This is my body, this is my blood" "hard" to accept and left. Christ instituted the Holy Mass during the Last Supper and told His disciples "Do this in memory of me."

The Holy Mass is the first and foremost, the source and summit of the "religious practices" of the CC. When Christ instituted the Mass, He fulfilled the prophecy of Malachais 1:11. "The clean oblation" that the priest or bishop offers in Christ's name is the precious Body and BLood of Christ in the Eucharistic sacrifice.

The Lord asscended into Heaven. For some time, the initial group of believers remained in Jerusalem awaiting the tremendous event Jesus said would take place. The Spirit came upon them in what Acts 2:3 describes as "tongues of fire". The Infant Church was born. After Pentecost, the Apostles acted collectively as officers of the newly formed religious society. The first mention of the word "church" in the NT, a word that means an assembly and in the OT was applied to the entire people of God. Jesus intended the Church to be the new Israel whose authority was to endure forever.

The actual religious practices of the CC would be the celebration of the Holy Mass and the Blessed Sacraments. A Sacrament is a sign of something sacred insofar as it produces a grace merited by CHrist. The Sacraments are acts of Christ (through the priests and bishops) continuing His healing activity on earth. The Sacraments all produce grace for a certain stage in life. Christ, Himself, instituted the Sacraments immediately, not through the Apostles or the CHurch, which merely has their custodianship. This is attested to both in Scripture and in oral Tradition. In the NT we find the direct intervention of Christ in the Sacraments either stated or strongly intimated. CHrist instituted Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders and Matrimony. To physical birth corresponds Baptism which ushers in spiritual life, to spiritual growth and for spiritual strength corresponds Confirmation to fit the young Christian for the battles he must fight for his faith and against sin. Man must always be recruiting his strength and for this is the Eucharist, in which our Lord, Himself is given to eat. Man may fall sick in 2 ways, bodily and spiritually, Penance is for spritual sickness whereby man recovers the grace he lost by sinning and offending God. For bodily sickness, there is Extreme Unction, which is a sacrament only for those in immediate danger of death and with the purpose of cleansing them from whatever of sin remains in them. The social sacraments replenish life in the community are holy orders and matrimony. Holy Orders by supplying those who will rule the kingdom for its spiritual good and Matrimony by bringing into being new citizens for Heaven.

Study Christian asceticism in the first 3 centuries. Don't be fooled by rationalists theories on the origin of the early CHurch. Careful examination will show that monastic life can be traced to CHrist and the 12 Apostles.

The CC bases her authority to teach and govern on the APostolic succession of her heirarchy. Christ founded a Church and gave the Apostles whom He placed over it certain ecclesiastical powers to be transmitted by them to their successors to the end of time. The CC has an oligarchial constitution; its heirarchial jurisdiction in place from the moment of its conception at Pentecost. This constitution was in principle the same in the 1st days of the Church in the first century as it is today. Sacred Tradition is Revelation which concerns the Holy Mass and the BLessed Sacraments cannot ever be changed becasue Christ instituted them. The Church also has traditions and you named some of those in your list, such as vestments, bells, prayers, types of liturgies, those have changed over time.

The Apostles went from town to town speaking not in their name, but in CHrist's and exercising the 3-fold power of teaching, governing and sanctifying. Read Acts. 1,4,5, 8. You will see that over both the Jews and Gentile converts, their authority was accepted as divine, whether in teaching, 1Cor.2:1-5;7 or in judging 1Cor.5, or in rebuking 1Cor.16 or in making laws or giving precepts 1Cor. 11,12, 14. Under the Apostles, deacons, presbyters and bishops formed a true heirarchy. 1Peter 2, 9, 12, 25; 5. St.Paul conferred the priesthood on TImothy and Titus whom he sent to organize churchs and to whom hecommitted the faculty of ordaining priests and deacons by the laying on of hands. St. John conferred the fullness of the priesthood . St. Ignatious writes of this in 107 that the Episcopate has been instituted for some time.

The early CHurch was not only hierarchial, it was liturgical and sacramental. It was above all Eucharistic, just as it is today. St.Justin Martyr described the Sunday liturgy in some detail and all the principal elements of the Holy Mass are in place; Scriptural readings (which came from the OT, then simply called Scripture, and from many of the documents and letters that would eventually comprise the NT) , prayers of intercession, offertory, Eucharistic prayer and Holy Communion.

The early Christian community founded on a common faith came together for the Eucharist, instruction, prayer, etc. and made up the local Church. They formed one organized body the basis of the catholic unity was universal baptism, universal faith in Jesus and His teachings. St.Paul spoke of the universal and visible CHurch. Eph.3:6-9. The universal church is not a number of bodies in CHrist, but one body only for Christ is not divided. One Shepherd, one flock, one faith, one CHurch. To paraphrase Hillaire Belloc, there is no such religion called "primitive Christianity". There is and always has been the Church founded by Christ around the year 30 AD. That Church has always been hierarchical and sacramental. And it saved Western Europe from both pagan barbarism and Eastern nihilism. But that is another post!!!!

During the 1st 3 centuries, the life of the Church developed despite initial persecution from the Jews and later, Roman persecution under Neroand later, Diocletian, internal doctrinal wrangling, and threatening Gnostic, Monatanist and Manichean and anti-Trinitarian heresies.

When this was over, at long last, Christianity was permitted to live above ground....but this too was only the beginning.

The answer to your last questions is yes, I do see that people from different backgrounds often see things differently and look at the Church from different perspectives.

With the help of God's grace, which will not be refused if we truly desire it, we may seek and find Truth, who is CHrist Jesus.

After today, I shall not be posting much if anything due to life's other callings. Overall, I have enjoyed the JU experience.

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