So the way i see it is this, if I'm damned, then damned I be. I might as well have as much fun with it as I can, while i can, eh?

but in your heart of hearts I can't believe you really believe this. Do you? I think anyone that has an interest in this subject even if I may not consider them a brother or sister in the faith (at this point) I believe that quite possibly God is doing a work in them. I don't know, only God knows and can read the heart.

Baker, it's not about conclusions at all. I know some really Godly people that have no clue about election vs freewill or what the book of Revelation say. They have the same love of Christ that I do. Some are from diff denomiations that may have some variations in their belief....but the essentials are there. They're the same. Scripture says the spirit bears witness. I've met people that I've known for just a few minutes and had a pretty good idea if they were Christian or not by their mouth (usually) and/or actions without even talking religion.

It's just that KFC doesn't consider most Christians to be Christians

this doesn't make sense to me. Either you are or you're not. If you said, Most people who call themselves Christians I don't think truly are then I'd agree with you. My grandmother not even close to being a Christian would say....."But I'm not a Jew now am I? So I am a Christian." I can call myself anything I want to. Doesn't make it so.

I'll usually ask....Do you pray? Do you go to church? Do you have close Christian friends that hold you up and hold you accountable? Do you read God's word? Usually it's no to all.....maybe a prayer or two but the rest is answered in the negative. So I ask them. What makes you a Christian?

No need to apologize. Once we got off the beaten path I was just as bad, responding to you. Sometimes we just have to let the Holy Spirit do the leading.

If a group of people believe that only by accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour, only by believing in and willfully submitting to his sacrifice and consequent resurrection as the bridge between man and God, and the only means of sin forgiveness, are they Christians?

Yes, but it's not a group thing. It's an individual belief. We don't get in by hanging onto each other or any denomination.

If this same group follows the above, but also believes the only true method of committal to this acceptance of Christ is sacrifice of their firstborn son on an altar, to God, are they Christians?

no because our sacrifice means nothing, even the sacrifice of our child. God says himself...."I don't want your sacrifice....I want your heart." It's not about DOING, but all about what's been DONE.

"this doesn't make sense to me. Either you are or you're not. If you said, Most people who call themselves Christians I don't think truly are then I'd agree with you. My grandmother not even close to being a Christian would say....."But I'm not a Jew now am I? So I am a Christian." I can call myself anything I want to. Doesn't make it so. I'll usually ask....Do you pray? Do you go to church? Do you have close Christian friends that hold you up and hold you accountable? Do you read God's word? Usually it's no to all.....maybe a prayer or two but the rest is answered in the negative. So I ask them. What makes you a Christian? "

I think you missed that as the point I was making about how Christianity didn't invent the title Christian. We don't, and have never, overseen the meaning of the word through scripture or dogma. We don't have a religious belief based in scripture as to what it means to be a Christian, because it originated in a totally secular way.

So, I don't need to know if they pray, go to church, etc. People who worship Christ are Christians. Islam believes in Christ, but they don't worship him. Jews for the most part believe that Christ existed, but they don't worship him. You might differ, but Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians, and their numbers are counted when you see the world total of Christianity.

It's like I said before, you are basically saying that anything that isn't a Chihuahua isn't a dog. What if there were people who worshiped Christ, but their beliefs forbade them from going to church or reading the Bible? You couldn't say that people who worship Christ aren't Christians any more than you could say a St. Bernard isn't a dog.

What if there were people who worshiped Christ, but their beliefs forbade them from going to church or reading the Bible

If you worship Christ then you will abide in his word and do your best to attend a local body of believers. There is no such thing as a Lone Ranger Christian. It runs contrary to scripture. Christ founded the church and expects us to be obedient by belonging. He did so for two reasons. One, it brings (or should) glory to God and two, it edifies and encourages other believers. We get beat up and messed up in the world. The church of united believers should be our sanctuary to recharge and refresh before going back out into an evil world.

He gave us his word and expects us to have it abide in us. He said,

"I have manifested your name to the men which you gave me out of the world; thine they were, and you gave them to me and they have kept your word.....I have given them your word and the world has hated them because they are not of the world even as I am not of the world. ...Sanctify them through your truth, your word is truth. Neither pray I for these alone (Apostles) but for them also (future believers) which shall believe on me through their word (gospel)." John 17

"If you abide in me and my words abide in you you shall ask what you will and it shall be done to you." John 15:7

So I think if anyone's beliefs say it is "forbidden" to read the bible, or "forbidden" to go to church, then I would say it's not coming from God, and they are obeying the evil one not the God I worship. We are to "test" the spirits to see if they are from God or not. This would be a classic.......God does not run contrary to his word.

Now after saying this, do I believe you are only a Christian if you go to church? No. If you never stepped foot in church again does not make you a non Christian. I would have to question your motives tho if you are fully able to participate. There are many people for various reasons that cannot attend a local body but it doesn't make them non Christians. Christ died for the church and wanted a local body of believers to worship him corporately as well as individually. He prayed for unity as he and his father are unified.

If you do not believe/confess Jesus is God, then I believe scripture is quite clear...you are not a true believer of Christ. "Who do you say that I am?" is the question of eternity.

You couldn't say that people who worship Christ aren't Christians any more than you could say a St. Bernard isn't a dog.

you're absolutely right here. Worship Christ is the key. Saying you worship Christ is a whole nuther ballgame.

you're absolutely right here. Worship Christ is the key. Saying you worship Christ is a whole nuther ballgame.

So KFC. Since the Jews reject jesus as the messiah would you consider them Christians? Are they condemned? Aren't they to Christians 'the chosen people?' What is your understanding of this?

Since the Jews reject jesus as the messiah would you consider them Christians? Are they condemned? Aren't they to Christians 'the chosen people?

No, a Christian is one that believes and follows Christ. They were so named as Baker said by the non believers in Paul's Day. They referred to those that followed Christ.

There is only one way to heaven. Thru Christ. If any does not go thru the "door" that leads to eternal life then they are condemned whether it be Jew, Gentile or my own children. To say otherwise is saying that Christ is a liar.

I believe that the Nation Israel is indeed the Chosen nation. I believe that God is going to turn back to them soon and they will see that Christ was indeed the Messiah. Read Zech 12-14. Pretty much explains it along with Romans 11. From what it looks like only 1/3 of Israel will make it through but the Nation will go into the Kingdom intact. God always all thru Jewish History had a remnant.

That's what I thought you would say KFC. Here is what I suggest. John 1:14 says that he is the W-rd made flesh. So if they are believing in the W-rd wouldn't they be indirectly believing in Jesus?

Not only that Paul states that all things in the Law point to Jesus. Wouldn't this support the proposed idea above?

I would have to question your motives tho if you are fully able to participate

Why? What right do you have to question anyone's motives or actions? If they accept Christ as the Son of God, "the way, the truth, and the light," then they are saved. Do other differing beliefs matter? If they feel it's necessary to cement that belief by making sacrifices, or self-imposed muteness, or anything you care to think of, who are you to judge? They share the essential Christian core belief.

If they commit actions "not coming from God, and they are obeying the evil one," does it affect their salvation? They are Christ-worshipping Christians. They may be otherwise misguided, but does that disallow their entrance into heaven?

I'm sorry, KFC, but you are being really hypocritical about this. You admit that the word "Christian" isn't defined in the Bible and that you aren't trying to impose a narrow definition on it, and then you start imposing your interpretation of scripture on the definition. I'm beginning to wonder if you realize that you do it.

The moment you said "there's no such thing" and started telling me what Jesus wants, you started imposing your definition. According to YOU Jesus wants this and that, but you know as well as I do that Mormons would be telling you this and that which you don't agree with, too. Would you appreciate it if they stripped you of the title Christian because you don't fit their beliefs?

You and I both cook, right? If someone walked into your kitchen when you were cooking Chinese food and told you that because you weren't cooking Szechuan you can't claim to be cooking Chinese, you'd be annoyed wouldn't you? Or just laugh off the person as a kook instead of a cook? If people can be offended about their cooking, how much more passionate are they about their faith?

So, basically someone is showing you their beloved St. Bernard here on your blog, and you are saying "You call that a dog? Now MY Chihuahua on the other hand; THAT'S a DOG.". In my opinion that's the number one thing that destroys the ability of many Christians to "witness". When you take that attitude, it usually slips out in the first couple of minutes and the other person's mind closes like a steel trap.

You don't have the right to define Christianity any more than the visiting cook has the right to define Chinese cooking. Both are defined by billions of people, not just one subset. If you tagged "I believe a Christian should" in front of it, or "My personal definition of Christian is..." then it might be a tad more palatable, but not a lot.

That's what I thought you would say KFC.

now why is that? Now you have to ask, is it lining up with scripture or not?

So if they are believing in the W-rd wouldn't they be indirectly believing in Jesus?

well let me answer with what it says in John 1:11.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Although they possessed the Scriptures that testified of His person and coming, they still did not accept Him. See also 12:37-41. This theme of the Jewish rejection gets attention in John's gospel. No they were not Christians, they were Jews that did not believe. Yes, the law did point to Christ but they missed it, they got caught up in their version of what the Messiah was to be. I'm talking as a whole here. Some Jews did come to believe and we see individuals throughtout the gospels....just as a nation they did not.

Why? What right do you have to question anyone's motives or actions?

scripture is clear if we see a sister or brother in err, we are to take him/her aside and show them what's going on. What I'm saying is if someone says they are a believer but shows no fruit, they should be challenged. Obviously they need to examine themselves but we as believers are called to come alongside and encourage and edify.

They may be otherwise misguided, but does that disallow their entrance into heaven?

well all sin. If you're asking if they backslide a bit or commit a sin, no it's not going to effect their position in Christ. What it will effect is their relationship with Him. David's a great example of this. He committed some grave sins yet he was called a man after God's own heart. Why? Because he acknowledged his guilt and turned away from it. Ps 51 was written by him after this time in his life. While a Christian will sin they will not habitually or intentionally hurt God by doing so.

If they commit actions "not coming from God, and they are obeying the evil one

yes, they are being influenced by the evil one. We're already "saved" so our salvation is secure. What Satan knows is that our witness can be damaging. He's a killjoy always looking to get us down so we won't or can't glorify God.

Tonight was a good example. My son David is a waiter at Applebees. His brother worked there last summer. A waitress working there now knows both boys. When I called an order in tonight she yelled into the phone that she wanted the secret of how to raise such good boys. I told him to tell her it was the manual and that it works. After he got off the phone he spent more than 20 minutes talking with her. Her boys did not turn out so well. He talked to her about God and coming to church. She's an ex-Catholic who hasn't gone in years and her husband worships trees. What she saw was the fruit of these two boys. She saw how they never use vulgarity like the others, they never got upset or complained like the others. It's noticeable especially to this mom of sons herself.

Do they sin? Yes. But they don't habitually do so because they know it's hurtful not only to them, to us but mostly to God. Satan will attack that sooner or later, anything to stop their witness. It will happen and they know they need to be on guard for that. They're trained to see more than just the physical. There was another lady listening and she said she's going to hell cuz that's where all the fun is. She didn't believe any of what David was saying. Two ladies, both the same age and similar experiences but two different reactions. I believe the HS was working in one but not the other and David was sent to talk with her.

I'm sorry, KFC, but you are being really hypocritical

I'm sorry............but you're hypocritical??? Way to soften the blow there BAKER. Hey how come I didn't call you that when you said this......

.

I've heard lots of revelations sermons KFC,

but I can't say I've bothered to sit through many revelations sermons

sounds like you're the one talking from both sides here.....besides when you start name calling like hypocrite or Westboro Wackos don't you know you just lose brownie points? So QUIT it.

For heavens sake Baker you're getting caught up in a word. While the term "Christian" is only used three times the description of what a follower of Christ is is there all over the place. So let's look at just those three instances shall we?

1. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with a the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26.

Ok, so we see that Christians assembled together and taught. What did they teach? The gospel and how to live as Christ.

2. Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. Acts 26:28

So again we see Paul, a Christian, teach about God. We also see that a Christian has a testimony (read whole chapter). Every single Christian I've ever known has a testimony about coming to Christ. Paul was giving his.

3. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 1 Peter 4:16

Ok, a Christian will suffer trials and tribulations. A Christian will not be ashamed at being called a Christian and a Christian will glorify God. Everything we do should be glorying to God. I can't remember who said this but it's been stated...."The chief end of man is to glorify God."

So there ya have it. Christian as defined in scripture. But there's so much more with just not the term "Christian" attached. Sort of like we see the definition of the trinity but we never see the term. It's all thru just not with the modern term.

You seem to like dogs. So let's talk dogs. These dogs although all diff sizes and shapes come from the same gene pool originally. Christians also come from the same gene pool, (spiritually) as they are born thru Christ and also come in all diff sizes and shapes. Let me give you my example.

In your neighborhood say you have kids all over the place. But there are only 4 Baker children among all those kids. These kids come from all over but only 4 are yours. Even if some come to live with you or hang out constantly in your home as tho they live there, they are still not Baker kids. They belong to someone else. To a stranger coming to visit it may look like there are 7 Baker kids when in reality there are only 4. They may even call you dad. Sooner or later you will get separated from those kids when they go back to their own homes. You know which kid is yours. You know the real deal. So does Jesus. He knows who is his and who is not...and a brother or sister knows who is a brother and who is not. The spirit bears witness and the tree bears fruit. We Have Our Father's Eyes as the song goes.

And we know HIM because we hear his voice. How? By reading, knowing, memorizing, and applying his word. Why do we do this? Because the HS has led us to believe it to be true. It's his voice to us for our time until he comes back like the writer to the Hebrews stated.. If we are not in the beginning stages of the end times and 100 yrs go by, there will be another Baker and KFC having this same debate. We will pass away but HIS words will never pass away.

The first time I said 'sermons' I wasn't referring necessarily to church sermons, rather the constant hum of Christians around me telling me that "He's coming soon" and how the EU is really this or that in the book of revelations. Don't get me wrong, I've had that kind of junk up to the eyeballs. No, though, I don't bother with it, and I reached the point that if a minister was going to waste an hour of my time on the foolishness I didn't bother staying for it. Feel bang away at whatever fumble you think I made, though, if you think it props up your argument.

Like the evolution thing I have to assume that what you are saying and what you are hearing yourself saying are two different things. You can't see that what you are proposing is your interpretation of the book and not literal, obvious-to-all truth. A lot of Christians don't even see the Bible as the inerrant word of God anyway, so you quoting this or that to me isn't much different than me quoting Benny Hinn to you.

Your desciption is just a sick way religions have of promoting themselves as the REAL thing. You can pretend it is all about relationship, but every single time you give doctrinal "clues" about whether or not people have that relationship, so it is a chicken or the egg thing. It still leaves folks like you telling people that they need to get into the right kind of church and find a relationship that they already believe they have.

well let me answer with what it says in John 1:11.

KFC, let's not just use one verse but the accompaning verses.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn't recognize him.
11 He came to his own, and those who were his own didn't receive him.
12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name:
13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


So let's see. The world didn't recognize him. And his own didn't recognize him. My point here is that it wasn't just Jews that didn't recognize him.
So who are G-D's children according to verse 12? Those who received received the right to be G-D children. Israel in the OT is called the Children of G-D. With that said please explain to me your thinking. You say only Christians who accept Jesus are saved. But you consider the Jews part of G-D's chosen. From what I gather (from what you said) is these are the ones who will turn to Jesus in the last days and that is how they are chosen? Please help me clarify your understanding.

Your desciption is just a sick way religions have of promoting themselves as the REAL thing. You can pretend it is all about relationship, but every single time you give doctrinal "clues" about whether or not people have that relationship, so it is a chicken or the egg thing. It still leaves folks like you telling people that they need to get into the right kind of church and find a relationship that they already believe they have.

I'm not pretending anything...and if you knew me, you'd know I'm a terrible faker. I would never be good at drama. The difference here between us, and I'm sure you already know this, is you are ecumenical and I am not, you are much more liberal in your theology and I am much more conservative. You are a broad is the way, and I am a narrow is the way. I'm a biblical Christian and you don't either understand that way or thinking or will not accept it. That's why we can never agree on these things.

So let's see. The world didn't recognize him. And his own didn't recognize him. My point here is that it wasn't just Jews that didn't recognize him

yes, that's true. The world would not have recognized him....they were not supposedly looking for him, but the Jews should have. They even asked Jesus as well as John....."are you the one?" They should have seen the evidence as he left much to see.

Christians or Jews who accept Christ's sacrifice are saved. Both are. But we are now in the times of the Gentiles. Yes, there are some Jews being saved..ie Jews for Jesus. I get a Messianic Publication that I find very interesting. I love their perspective. But later when the door is shut to the Gentiles (so to speak) He will turn again to the Jews and all of Israel will be saved says Paul.

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.....What then? Israel has not obtained it......but the election has obtained it and the rest were blinded. According as it is written God has given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they shold not see and ears that they should not hear to this day. Romans 11.

What Paul is saying is a handful of Jews are coming to Christ now but nothing like what will happen. If you go to Zech you'll see 1/3 of the nation will make it during the trib and 2/3 will not. It's not so much that they are chosen because they turn to Christ as it is that their eyes will be open to Him and then they turn to him. God's doing the choosing, not the Jews. Sort of like a million Pauls all together I would imagine. Does this make sense?

But later when the door is shut to the Gentiles (so to speak) He will turn again to the Jews and all of Israel will be saved says Paul

God's doing the choosing, not the Jews

So some are damned, and some are not, but it remains up to God, not the people? Where is the much-touted free-will, loving sacrifice, eternal life through Christ if you choose Him, in that? So are the Jews who don't follow Christ now really to be blamed? "He will turn [to them] again...and all of Israel will be saved." The Jews (religious) living now are damned, as he has not yet turned to them?