I think Israel is around because of the covenant too and always will be.

Some thoughts this article rattled around in my head:

Some would say blessing was on Rome as well....they prospered as we prosper, and Babylon, Greece, etc for a season.....we are very young as far as countries go, and some of the directions we head in are not honoring God.

I used to think America was God's country but I've revised that idea. Why should I think we are a country God favors? Because we have peace? Because we prosper? Because we say so? A lot of countries have those blessings and I wouldn't call them places of God. Is it because we are the "super power?"

In the history of the world God has allowed nations to rule who were His enemy. Could they claim because they were super powers they were God's country?

I think America is a place where some of the faithful live. And some of the faithful govern.

Often times I hear people interpreting Revelation. They name America as one of the countries in the end times. But you know, we may not even exist then. Yeah the beginning of the end could happen tomorrow, but it could happen long after America is gone. I am sure the faithful in Rome believed their country to be one in end times. I am sure every country of world power since Revelation was written reads itself into the scene. Doesn't make it so though, ya know?

Just some random thoughts.

Appreciated the article.

Thanks.

Often times I hear people interpreting Revelation. They name America as one of the countries in the end times. But you know, we may not even exist then

no, we're not even mentioned which makes me feel we are either disabled or not worth mentioning in the grand scope of things. Maybe we are taken over by then...we don't know. But it all centers around the middle east...not the west. Judgement if you notice in scripture always comes from the East. Even the ancient Rabbis would have their graves pointed East with hopes they would be resurrected first.

I am sure the faithful in Rome believed their country to be one in end times.

I believe the Revived Roman Empire which goes back to Daniel 2 and the vision of the statue will be a strong player in the end times. All the world powers represented in the vision, Babylon, Medes & Persians and Greece were all taken over by the next world power. Rome was not taken over but fell from within. I believed for many many years (and still do) that the burning embers of the Roman Empire would someday ignite ...and I believe we are seeing that today.

We are a very very young country and sometimes I think we were put here all for this purpose....to help Israel. It's not about us at all and I agree that we have lost our way as a nation.

And some of the faithful govern

speaking of Govern.....off topic...but I heard Governor Mike of Arkansas on the radio this past week and he had some really awesome things to say. He is a very strong man of God and from what I heard it wasn't make believe. What a story he had to tell.

I am sure every country of world power since Revelation was written reads itself into the scene. Doesn't make it so though, ya know?

no, and God's judgment is pending....and when it comes, Israel will be in the center of it. Syria and Iran are also up front and center. So if this isn't the time, then it's at least a preview of coming attractions.

Thanks for the input.

I really do loathe the smug self-congratulation with which well-fed and secure Biblical talking-heads regard the miseries of other peoples' suffering. No doubt, as the twin towers were crashing down in blood and flames, KFC was sat at home hugging her bible and congratulating herself for not being among the sinners meeting their end that day.

As for your ramblings on Israel and the last days... It may not have occurred to you but at least one other world-wide sect of 'christians' believe that America itself is the promised land, not Israel, and that the mythological and poetic battles and transformations described in revelations will take place here not among the rabid dogs and stinking middens of Israel and the Middle East. I'll leave you to guess as to which sect I mean.

believe the Revived Roman Empire

I've read several historians who call American The Second Rome....that's weird.

It's not about us at all

I don't think so either. But most of the pulpits I've heard in the last decade aren't saying that...they are saying "We are the right hand of God." and things like that.

Governor Mike of Arkansas

Never heard of him...but as election time draws near I think we will be hearing a lot of new names.

So if this isn't the time, then it's at least a preview of coming attractions.

And what is old, is new again.

"As for your ramblings on Israel and the last days... It may not have occurred to you but at least one other world-wide sect of 'christians' believe that America itself is the promised land, not Israel, and that the mythological and poetic battles and transformations described in revelations will take place here not among the rabid dogs and stinking middens of Israel and the Middle East. I'll leave you to guess as to which sect I mean."

In addition to the fact that many around the world, even some CHristians, don't believe that the current incarnation of Israel is really "Israel" and is in stead a zionist colony piggybacking the prophesies in order to secure a 'home land'.

I wonder, how many of the people there can trace their lineage back to the tribes referred to as Israel in the Bible. Isn't there some pretty strict definitions in there as to whether or not the line is carried on dependent on the makeup of the family in question? I'm speaking hypothetically, mind you, and I am not denying anyone who wants to associate themselves, but if you are going for the literal interpretation of scripture one must wonder.

wonder, how many of the people there can trace their lineage back to the tribes referred to as Israel in the Bible

not many if any at all. All the records and such were destroyed with the disbursement of 70 AD. I do believe those geneologies that many dismiss are there for a reason. After the birth of Christ it wasn't as important anymore. Some from what I understand may have an idea of their tribe by going on their names. Those with the last name of Levi for instance might believe they are from the tribe of Levi. I'm not sure how common that is tho....from what I understand they really don't know for sure. I'm not understanding what you mean about the makeup of the family. I know being born from a Jewish mother is the most important because while you can't deny who your mother was it was harder to prove who the father was.

In addition to the fact that many around the world, even some CHristians, don't believe that the current incarnation of Israel is really "Israel" and is in stead a zionist colony piggybacking the prophesies in order to secure a 'home land'.

I agree that this thought is out there but again like I quoted from Jeremiah and Paul outlines in Romans, God is going to keep them alive until the end times. He's not done with this group and I believe their longevity is a testimony to that fact. While many peoples from all walks of life will be saved in the end, only the nation Israel as a whole will be saved. In other words their nation will stay intact going into the millenium kingdom and once again Jerusalem will be the center of worship.

I've read several historians who call American The Second Rome....that's weird.

I've never heard that and wouldn't believe it anyway. it doesn't matter what "people say". There are alot of opinions out there. There is also something out there called the replacement theory where Israel is replaced with the Christian Church. As God favored the Jews in the OT, he now has switched to the church in the NT. But it's very clear that the two are separate entities and that the church has been grafted in or adopted into the Abrahamic covenant which I believe is still in play here.

they are saying "We are the right hand of God." and things like that.

ya, have heard this before. I'm pretty sure God doesn't "need" us as much as those who are saying this want to believe. But I do believe he has raised America up in the last days for a purpose.....for one we were for a long time the place where all the missionaries came from. Now it seems we need missionaries to come here.

"After the birth of Christ it wasn't as important anymore."

Better decide what you mean by "nation as a whole" then. Are you saying that the entire nation of Israel will be saved in the traditional Christian way, or because they are Jews? If I recall isn't there just like 144,000 or so that make it according to Revelations? Israel the modern nation has over 6 million people right now.

The fact is if Jesus is the only way to God as you espouse, then it isn't really going to matter whether or not you are a Jew, and the number of Jews that make it are incidental. If the "nation of Israel" as a while is going to be saved, then the Bible sure as heck isn't talking about the Israel we talk about on the news, because 144,000 around 3 percent of Israel's population today.

So, frankly, this glorious Biblical thing is confusing when you try to match it up with current events. WHen you say "Whoever blesses Israel God will bless" Do you mean the other 97% that isn't going to end up so peachy? What if that 97% are the ones in charge of Israel now? Are you even sure that you and God are talking about the same Israel?

And, in the end, if the statement "no man cometh to the Father except by me" is true, then Jews don't have any head start more than anyone else, do they?

If I recall isn't there just like 144,000 or so that make it according to Revelations? Israel the modern nation has over 6 million people right now.

no, no, no. The 144,000 are going to be the messengers...sort of like the Jews for Jesus that will be the missionaries during this time. They will represent the 12 tribes and go out and witness to their fellow Jewish brothers. This is the time that Paul was talking about in Romans 11, also. Many will come to Christ......it will be God turning to them. Read Romans 11 for better clarity. We are living in the time of the Gentiles but he's going to turn back to them and the Nation will be saved.

11:25-26 says this: For I would not brothers that you should be ignorant of this mystery lest you should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. So all Israel shall be saved as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the deliverer and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob.

Jews are being saved today but nothing like will happen soon. Remember what it says in Jeremiah. He's not done with them as long as the sun and the moon are in the sky.

And, in the end, if the statement "no man cometh to the Father except by me" is true, then Jews don't have any head start more than anyone else, do they

no, we are all saved the same way. Faith in Christ. Period. There is no other way. We have to walk thru the door. He is the door. There's no getting around the cross.

So, frankly, this glorious Biblical thing is confusing when you try to match it up with current even

yes, this can be confusing at first...but it's like a big puzzle with all the pieces you put together. I've had a lot of time to put these pieces together remember......

I find it interesting myself. For a long time I was quite the student studying eschatology or end times..anything I could get my hands on...not so much anymore but I do understand that many are very interested in this....reading prophecy is very much like watching the news. The countries and events seem to be falling in place expedientially and many out there are watching the news with biblical interest.

Jews are being saved today but nothing like will happen soon. Remember what it says in Jeremiah. He's not done with them as long as the sun and the moon are in the sky.

Haven't they been forsaken though? The prophecy you quote says " If heven above can be measured and the foundastions of the earth searched out beneath I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the Lord."

My reading of that is that God didn't want the Jews to understand anything of heaven above (the sky?) or the foundations of the earth below. Doesn't that mean that mining and cosmology have damned the Jewish people?

I've heard lots of revelations sermons KFC, and I've never heard the "messengers" thing re: the 144,000. It's funny to me how things people can be so certain about can change so often in a religion that claims nothing ever changes. After all, science is the one that is less trustworthy because it can't settle on anything, yet you can find a new interpretation of revelation before you can digest the last one.

Wait, I was wrong, I take that back. I have heard that from Jehova's Witnesses before. Can't remember ever hearing it from mainstream protestant ministers, but I can't say I've bothered to sit through many revelations sermons, either. In my opinion they aren't worth the time of people who could be focused on what is important in life.

I've seen too many 'prophets' who spent all their time pondering what was going to happen and never bother noticing what is going on with people five feet away. I call it discarding foolishness, but if you want to call it a blind spot in my biblical knowledge I am okay with that. My personal opinion is that, if Jesus is even really intended to come back as it describes, if you aren't surprised when the 5 o'clock whistle blows then you've probably been watching the clock and not doing your job.

BakerStreet:
"I've heard lots of revelations sermons KFC, and I've never heard the "messengers" thing re: the 144,000. It's funny to me how things people can be so certain about can change"......
"Can't remember ever hearing it from mainstream protestant ministers, but I can't say I've bothered to sit through many revelations sermons, either. In my opinion they aren't worth the time of people who could be focused on what is important in life."

Just to chime in...actually I've ALWAYS heard of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses. Not 144,000 total saved....the only place I ever heard that was from JWs.

Baker it is more common that you imagine (Baptists, Methodists, and every non-denominational church I've attended teaches it as witnesses.)

Tim LeHaye wrote a series of fiction books about the end times called "Left Behind"....he includes the 144,000 Jewish witnesses in them.

Yes I know its fiction. But there haven't been any "What is he talking about?" kinda articles and interviews, and if it was off the wall or deviated from the general beliefs of most Christians in the country there would be a "BAN LEHAY day" I am sure.

In addition to the fact that many around the world, even some CHristians, don't believe that the current incarnation of Israel is really "Israel" and is in stead a zionist colony piggybacking the prophesies in order to secure a 'home land'.

And I'm definitely of that category - at least of the one that believes that this is Israel is not the same Israel that existed before.

Like I said, call it a blind spot in my biblical knowledge if you want, but end of times prophesy is a waste of time even if you can stomach believing it. I think you'll find the general beliefs of most Christians take the book of revelations, and the oddities of many people's interpretation of such, with a grain of salt. They don't want to ban such, they just roll their eyes at it and edge away uneasily.

If you look at their target audience you'll find it isn't mainstream Christianity, not even close. There are 190 million or so people who profess CHristianity in the US, and the 30 million or so that have bought the first book don't account for the mainstream. Lehay's foisted about 65 million books the world, sure, but that's with what, 14 books now?

To each his own. No offense, but if you think evangelical Christians who believe in the revelations version of the end of the world are mainstream, well, you need to venture into the mainstream a bit more. Most people haven't worked UN black helicopter conspiracy paranoia into their religious faith.