What is your definition of anti-semetic? While I have heard MLuther was anti-semetic I know of no such truth behind the rumor.

KFC,

I have heard this too and looked into this a while back. There are different articles ( I have no way a proving their truth) that show him being anti-semetic. Do a google search if you like on Martin Luther, The Jews and their lies. This is a disturbing article supposedly written in 1543. This article is one that he supposedly wrote shortly before he died. Looke towards the end of the article (it is kind of lengthy) and you will find him saying, burn their houses and synagogues.


Hope that helps.

To BlueDev My Faith in God is as equivilent to my faith in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, otherwise known as the IPU.

To K.F.C (....F-A-I-T-H. Forsaking All I Trust Him.) You first have to know whom to trust, and how do you know what the definition of Him is? There is no way to know other than by faith.
And since Faith is no test of certainty, when using Faith, all is uncertain.
God exists definitely, only in the minds of all who have faith in God existing, just as the IPU exists in the minds of others.

Proving wind exits is easy, we can setup expiraments that are repeatble and worthy of science about wind. But nothing about God

I like the non-Christian argument. I used to be a Christian myself, a very evangelical type. But in my life, I believe having integrity more important than any faith.
What I mean is, since I can't prove God exists (no one can prove he doesn't), I can't truthfully say to you that he doesn't.
However, George H. Smith's book (Atheism - The case against God) really does spell it out. Its unfortunate that a faith can charge up emotions that make us heated and therefore not only unreliable, but actually evil. I myself have come to terms with the fact that God may exists, but HE does not have any affect on my life or the lives of the ones around me.

That said, I do see the affect that faith has in others, but I don't see it as holding any integrity. I see emotionalism, and sympathy (some empathy) which I think we all have anyway. But all that has nothing to do with faith that I have seen. It has to do with simply being human.

One anthropologist said that humans have a natural tendancy to believe in God.

Belief in God is more arrogant, than not believing. Which is more prideful you think, believing you were made by a supreme being for the purpose of His enjoyment, or believing that we are just here, and we need to make the best of it if we want to remain here for the time that we are allowed. The time that our bodies don't give out.

Also, I don't really think I can admire a creator that made men have tits, and what about that there appendix. We don't need it, so why is it there?
There are more proofs that saying (if God exists) he exists for some other reason than having Man around. We are more like a byproduct of some creative energy that ramped up 5 Billion years ago. Do you realize there is nothing in history except contemporary science that figured out our matter has been around for only 5 Billion years?

So whether or not God exists, is a moot point. I used to believe and used to live by faith. Now I have fixed that error in my reason and am actually healthier from doing so.

Good luck with the IPU (I mean God) exists thingy.

Regards,

Fox

Foxy, as long as you exclusively come from the level of the head (intellect), you'll conclude that belief in God is the same as belief in pink unicorns and Santa Claus. It's a case of searching deeper and coming from the level of the heart. But if your consciousness hasn't yet risen to higher wavelengths of spiritual awareness, then you'll have to remain in the land of unicorns, and our words will be like clanging cymbals. (In other words, you'll think I'm speaking bollox.)

You forget that I already had the Christian expreience. spiritual awareness as you may put it. And just because you happen to have spirituality, doesn't mean you have to attribute those thoughts or feelings to some God. All people have some sort of spritual awareness. It is part of thinking in general. We mostly think in spiritual heartful terms. Because LOGIC is hard, not easy. It is hard to use logic, it takes discipline and refinement. It is not without some reserve that I use logic and critical thinking to voice my ideas. Even so, spiritual, intellectually, and with high moral grounds, I believe and think, its the right way to be.

The most spiritual people I know are Buddhists. The Greeks with the many gods for GODS sake were spiritual. I mean ever read Homer?

Regards,
Fox

To BlueDev My Faith in God is as equivilent to my faith in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, otherwise known as the IPU.

Congratulations. We each must find our own path.

Does God exist?

This can be simply explained by the ol' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy logic.

If you can prove that God exists, than there will be no faith, and in order for God to exist there must be faith in Him. Therefore, if it is proven that God exists, than logically he doesn't exist.

So, basically you can't prove if God exists, because then he wouldn't...the moral of the story is that you have to have faith, and see where that takes you.

~Zoo

Andy,

What kind of God do I ascribe to? A kind loving merciful God who is always faithful to me even when I'm not so faithful to him.. He's a comforter, a help in distress and one that gives me chance after chance to get things right as he is so patient as well. He's doing a work in me day by day (sanctificaltion). We don't know the whys Andy, and we can't go beyond what is written. But I do believe that we are all drowning in the sea of humanity and God reaches down and pulls us out and breathes life into us. I can't explain it. I just know it's happened to me. The way you can really tell if someone is a real believer? By their changed life. Scripture does explain this quite clearly and we see example after example not only scriptural accounts of changed lives but I see them still in person. I can give you story after story of changed lives from all different religious backgrounds but Christ is the dividing line.

You mentioned before and again this time that "all" are children of God. I told you there were two fathers. WE follow one or the other either knowingly or unknowingly. John said ]"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believe in His name. who were born not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor of the will of man....but of God. 1:12

God adopts us into his family after he breathes life into us. We then receive all rights and priviledges as any other family member. God takes on the role of protector and provider. It's an incredible priviledge being a child of God. He delights to meet our needs. He shows us that we are welcome and most wanted. Do a search sometime just on the word "adopted" in scripture. I think you'll see some interesting stuff.
Foxy

I don't think believing in God is prideful at all. In fact I think just the opposite. A Christian says they are following the leading of God. He is the good shepherd to the sheep. A non believer is the prideful one. They need no such help. They are ok on their own. They don't see the ravenous wolves out there out for their very soul. They don't see them because these wolves are spiritual. When one comes to Christ he gives us those eyes to see. It's really hard to explain. I wish I could have a dime for every born again Christian who says......."It was a light went on, then I understood." That's why I don't believe you can be a (real) Christian and say...."Once upon a time I was a Christian but now, I'm not." I don't believe they ever were in the first place. You can call youself anything. Doesn't make it so. It'd be like walking out of light into darkness again. Doesn't make sense.

Dharma

That's it???? I ask you to back up your contradictions' statement and you answer by calling me fanatical? Well let's see......so far I've been called arrogant (many times), an almost liar, presumptuous, etc. Most of it comes in when I ask a question. I still have had no response when I ask for so called contradictions. Usually it's a ...."Well just check out this site." I don't want to check out "a site." I want anyone out there to give me one that they have been wrestling with because they have read it for themselves. The ones that talk about contradictions are the ones that have not read the book. And I mean read it!!! Not skim a page or two and say....this doesn't make sense. Because it makes more sense than anything else this crazy world has to offer.

Maybe I am fanatical. I don't know. Maybe that's why John the Baptist lost his head.....he was just too fanatical.

Doc.

I could eat you up with a spoon.............. devout....I can handle that one!!!!

Hi KFC, it’s nice to see you again. Where have you been? I thought you’d abandoned us

What kind of God do I ascribe to? A kind loving merciful God who is always faithful to me even when I'm not so faithful to him.. He's a comforter, a help in distress and one that gives me chance after chance to get things right as he is so patient as well. He's doing a work in me day by day (sanctificaltion). . . . I do believe that we are all drowning in the sea of humanity and God reaches down and pulls us out and breathes life into us. I can't explain it. I just know it's happened to me .

I completely agree with all this, and I couldn’t have worded it any better. But your scope seems to miss the point that I highlighted, which was my main issue. I can’t see how the doctrine that all non-Christians will be punished in hellfire for all eternity is a sound belief, and I'm trying to see how it fits with a realistic view.

Considering the scenarios I described in the previous post, where does God’s “justice” and “love” fit into it? What are your definitions of these divine attributes - justice and love? You define it well when describing how God is merciful and loving to you, but what about people who God chooses not to become a Christian?

I also couldn't understand how the reference to the Devil, as a second father, makes sense of it?

Yes God exists, it's just that Christianity and Islam do not exist.

(by the way, I'm not trying to undermine your faith here KFC. I'm just genuinely intrigued about the issue, and I'm trying to see the rationale in it. Many people hold these beliefs dear to them, I know, and I think that I often come across as an arrogant loud mouth on these pages. You'll have to excuse me. I'm not sure if I belong here half the time)

. The ones that talk about contradictions are the ones that have not read the book

Don't make assumptions about me.  You don't like it when I do it to you, so do unto others as you would have done unto you. 

You present yourself as what I call a 'rabid' christian.  Maybe sometime you should take a look at yourself, see how you represent your faith to other people.  Even I find it disturbing, and I'm somewhat used to it.

It's impossible to have any kind of meaningful rapport with you; your arrogance and ego get in the way.  Ergo, I'm leaving things as they are here until you can calm down. No, you did not win.  Don't go thinking that I'm running scared because I'm not; I just have had (and still do have) real life matters that require my attention right now. You don't want to go look at sites, right?  So, I'll bring the sites here when I have the time and the incination.  Sorry, but I think illnesses and legal trials come first.

Dharma....it's not about winning. The battle belongs to the Lord. I'm just a warrior that's suited up so to speak. When I do bring people to Christ and they finally "see him" I say "one more that has slipped from the grasp of Satan." The war is not of flesh and blood but of spirit and principalities. There is a spiritual battle going on for men's souls and like I used to say to my sons....."I will get between you and whatever is going to take you down"........beit physical or spiritual. The best weapon I had? Prayer and the sword of the spirit which is the word of God.

Was my assumption wrong? If so.......I apologize. All I'm saying is those that have really studied the bible have found out that the enemy's lies about it are untrue.

It's sort of like a neighbor telling you lies about the other neighbor. When you meet neighbor #2 you find out how really sweet and gentle she is and realize that you totally trusted neighbor #1 for a while and feel badly about believing her without checking the accusations for yourself. Then you really see #1 neighbor for who she really is. A liar that can't be trusted.

I'm sorry to hear about what seems to be serious problems in your life. I will definitely keep you on my prayer list. I actually do pray for you.....please don't take it as arrogance but concern. That's all it is. I actually like talking to you. Like I've said before.....some people you walk arm and arm with and some you walk arm and arm and eye to eye.

Of course with you..... I belive we are going in opposite directions. Maybe that's why you feel about me the way you do. As a Christian I am called to be salt and light. Salt that has lost its flavor is useless. I'm just trying to be that salt. When it's full of flavor it can be strong and if it's poured into a wound....it can sting and irritate a bit. But it also has a cleansing effect to go along with this. So just think of me as a salt shaker pouring a bit of salt over you.......strong stuff I admit. But I don't want to be dull and without flavor now do i?

I'm really calm.....really. Geeeeeesh rabid now? I'm collecting quite a list of adjectives. I think I like fanatical better.

Andy,

Of course you belong. I love talking to you. But I do have you pegged for only believing in the "love and mercy" sort of God. I'll get back to you when I have a bit more time on the God of justice as well.

It's tax time and I go away so I can get work done......so I'm not looked at as fanatical. I do have work outside of my studies.

I don't see the bible as evidence of God existing anymore than I can see the Similarion (from JRR Tolkein) to prove that Eru existed.  It's a mythology/history that you have faith in.  But it is not objective evidence unto itself - hence the reliance on faith.

'I don't see the bible as evidence of God existing anymore than I can see the Similarion (from JRR Tolkein) to prove that Eru existed.'
The Similarion? Is that the same thing as the Silmarillion? Or is it only ... er ... 'Similar'?

Well Draginol.......there's a difference...a big one here. We have no evidence that ERU existed now do we? You are trying to say that fiction and non fiction are the same or similar. What about all the archaelogy involved? There has been numerous digs that show the places, people, events etc are indeed who and what they said they were in scripture.

Does that mean archaelogy proves the bible? No. It cannot prove and show that it is indeed inspired of God. But it does show "proof" that some biblical event or passage is historical. There has not been a dig yet that has disproven these places, people and things have not occurred.

The bible, unlike JRR Tolkein's works, has been proven historically correct. You are right tho....there has been no evidence as of yet to show that ERU existed.

I believe the bible holds up very well under historical scrunity,l but again it cannot prove the bible is from God. For example...say we find the ark of the covenant with the tablets that the 10 commandments were written on. We could prove that it came from the time of Moses but we couldn't prove that God had written on them. Same with the ark. We could say well it's a big boat...so what? We can't prove that God helped Noah build it.

To compare a historical document to a work of fiction is absurd.

BTW.......Tolkein was a Christian and best friend of C.S. Lewis. You may want to check on both of these fine gentlemen a bit closer. When I saw the "Fellowship of the Ring" when it first came out......I was amazed at all the hidden Christianity weaved into the words of his book and later inserted into the movie.