It's An Unconditional Covenant
Published on October 26, 2009 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion

Since ancient times there hasn't been a piece of Real Estate more fought over than that little parcel of land, no bigger than the state of RI, in the Middle East that we now call Israel.  To understand the conflict over there is to understand history.  This land has passed hands countless times even well before the Romans had control over it in the first century and has continued ever since.  Much blood has been shed in that region, more than any other, well before their 1948 Independance Day.  It still continues today promising to get worse with each passing moment.  There seems to be no end in sight. 

So what's going on?  Why can't the leaders of the world seem to achieve peace in the Middle East?  Why does the Psalmist tell us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem written during the times of King David 14 generations before the birth of Christ?  Yet, from then on there has been everything but peace in the region.  What are we missing? 

Many Christians, as do I, believe that land was promised to Abraham and his descendants since almost the beginning of time.  This land was promised to them forever and has been written down for centuries in the oldest manuscripts we have today.  Moses in the Pentateuch outlined the story of how all this came to be and then the well written history recorded by the Jews showed the partial conquest and the failures that led to them never obtaining the promises given to Abraham completely. 

Moses warned before he died in Deut 7:1-5:

1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.  Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles  and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

After Moses died, the fearless Joshua was to lead the people of Israel into the Promised Land.  All they had to do was follow God's commands (above) and do what he said.  God would hand their enemies over to them easily enough.  

In Joshua 21 it's been pointed out,  by those who wish to dismiss the claim to the land by the Jews, as already being fulfilled because written in that chapter it says this: 

 43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

The interpretation of these three verses must be considered in the light of what happens next.  The Lord had not failed to keep His promise.  It was unfaithful Israel who failed to keep their end of the bargain. 

After Joshua's death God gave instruction for the continued battle to obtain the land.  So obviously they had not possessed it all quite yet because they were continuing to fight for the rest of it after the death of Joshua.  Just reading Judges (book written after Joshua's death) we can see they did not have possession of the entire land before Joshua died.  Without brave Joshua the people faltered.  Here's what happened:

 1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"  2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands." 19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. 21 The Benjamites, however, failed to dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the Benjamites.  27 But Manasseh did not drive out the people of Beth Shan or Taanach or Dor or Ibleam or Megiddo and their surrounding settlements, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that land.

29 Nor did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, but the Canaanites continued to live there among them. 30 Neither did Zebulun drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron or Nahalol, who remained among them; but they did subject them to forced labor. 31 Nor did Asher drive out those living in Acco or Sidon or Ahlab or Aczib or Helbah or Aphek or Rehob, 32 and because of this the people of Asher lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land. 33 Neither did Naphtali drive out those living in Beth Shemesh or Beth Anath; but the Naphtalites too lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land, and those living in Beth Shemesh and Beth Anath became forced laborers for them. 34 The Amorites confined the Danites to the hill country, not allowing them to come down into the plain.

They faltered big time.  God was certainly not happy with them.  He said this to them: 

 1 The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides   (even today) and their gods will be a snare to you."

20 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel and said, "Because this nation has violated the covenant that I laid down for their forefathers and has not listened to me, 21 I will no longer drive out before them any of the nations Joshua left when he died. 22 I will use them to test Israel and see whether they will keep the way of the LORD and walk in it as their forefathers did." 23 The LORD had allowed those nations to remain; he did not drive them out at once by giving them into the hands of Joshua.

So that last underlined section gives the answer that while he gave them into the hands of Joshua all was not completed until the Israelites did their part of the plan...and then look what happens...remembering at the very beginning what God had said to Moses back in the book of Deuteronomy and repeated many times:

 1 These are the nations the LORD left to test all those Israelites who had not experienced any of the wars in Canaan 2 (he did this only to teach warfare to the descendants of the Israelites who had not had previous battle experience): 3 the five rulers of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites living in the Lebanon mountains from Mount Baal Hermon to Lebo  Hamath. 4 They were left to test the Israelites to see whether they would obey the LORD's commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses.  5 The Israelites lived among the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 6 They took their daughters in marriage and gave their own daughters to their sons, and served their gods.

We see they directly defied God.  Because they did not do what He commanded them to do, they paid the consequences.  Eventually they ending up in captivity.  The nation, for centuries, had been  displaced until 1948 when they were allowed to make the land their home for the first time since the Babylonian Captivity in 586 B.C. 

Now while the Mosaic covenant was conditional, the promise or Covenant to Abraham was unconditional.  That Covenant said that Abraham and his descendants would forever be linked to the land of Canaan with a much larger area promised than what they have today.  The land promised was laid out clearly to Abraham with all the borders mentioned and includes parts of or the whole of Jordan, Israel, Egypt, Syria, Turkey etc.  Put it this way, it's alot larger than the little piece they are fighting over today. 

So the question is, when does the Covenant with Abraham become a reality?  When does the time come that Jerusalem will enjoy the Peace that we are all supposed to be praying about?   

Ezekiel has the answer to that. That is the rest of the story, but today we are seeing the beginning of the fulfillment to Abraham right before our very eyes.  Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was nothing short of miraculous.  And it took the likes of a very evil man to make it all happen showing us that God indeed can take something evil and turn it around for good. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Comments (Page 1)
on Oct 26, 2009

When the Israelites have the Abrahamic covenant fulfilled at last, Jerusalem will have 12 gates.  Each gate will have the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel on them.  Rev 21. 

The wall of the city will have 12 foundations and in them the names of the 12 apostles will be on them. 

Pretty interesting in lieu of the fact that the ones that hold that this will never happen can not account for this unfulfilled prophecy at any time in history. 

 

on Oct 26, 2009

Since ancient times there hasn't been a piece of Real Estate more fought over than that little parcel of land, no bigger than the state of RI, in the Middle East that we now call Israel. To understand the conflict over there is to understand history. This land has passed hands countless times even well before the Romans had control over it in the first century and has continued ever since. Much blood has been shed in that region, more than any other, well before their 1948 Independance Day. It still continues today promising to get worse with each passing moment. There seems to be no end in sight.

I agree.

Interesting though that you open with "Much blood has been shed in that region, more than any other, well before their 1948 Independance Day. It still continues today promising to get worse with each passing moment. There seems to be no end in sight.

 and then in your closing paragraph say:

Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was nothing short of miraculous. And it took the likes of a very evil man to make it all happen showing us that God indeed can take something evil and turn it around for good.

So, how can you say that the modern state of Isreal's continual state of war and all the blood shed and oppression of the Palestinian people (ethnic cleansing) is "nothing short of miraculous"?

You try to make it out that there is some kind of supernatural continuity between the lands and nation of the ancient Old Testament Isrealites and modern Jews takeover of the land of the secular state of Isreal today...when there is no such thing.

The ancient Isrealites were a religious nation backed by God until, as Jacob foretold the "sceptre", the authority, the soveregnity of the House of King david was taken away. That was to happen, and did happen, about the time when "the Expected of Nations", the  Messias, came and everything for Jews and their history changed.

Moses warned before he died in Deut 7:1-5:

Also, before Moses died, he promised Christ and commanded the Isrealites to hear Him. "The Lord God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation, and of thy brethren like unto me, Him thou shalt hear." Deut. 18:15.

Christ came and some of the Jews  "heard Moses"...they accepted the Messias.

Those Jews who didn't accept the Messias Christ went into dispersion after the destruction of the Temple, the end of sacrifices and the Sanhedrin, in 70AD. Soon after, modern Talmudic Judaism was born and the thought of an independent nationhood has always been in the minds of Talmudic Jews just as their desire for the rebuilding of the Temple and Temple sacrifices. The militant Zionist ambition for a Jewish "homeland" extended to a demand for more Palestinian lands is pure political militarism.

 

 

  

 

 

 

on Oct 27, 2009

It still continues today promising to get worse with each passing moment. There seems to be no end in sight.

May I ask which numbers do you base this on, the "getting worse"?

This is the numbers I know:

Killed:

1948 War of Independence:

4000 Israeli military, 2400 civilians

8000-15000 Arab, mostly military (the attackers didn't send civilians, in case anyone wants to argue that Israel targeted civilians)

1956 Suez War:

200 Israelis, Britons, and French

1650 Arabs, military and civilians, mostly military

1967 Six-Day-War:

1000 Israelis

11000 Arabs

1970 War of Attrition:

1500 Israeli military, 127 civilians

5000 Arab, mostly military

1982 Lebanon War:

657 Israelis

10000 Arab, mostly terrorists and "Palestinian" civilians

18000 Lebanese on both sides, military and civilians (these are usually counted against Israel, of course)

1988 "Intifada":

160 Israelis

1087 Arabs, mostly terrorists, by Israel

1000 Arabs, by the PLO

2000 "Intifada":

727 Israeli civilians, 335 military

4860 Arabs by Israel

593 Arabs by PLO

54 foreigners by PLO

10 foreigners by Israel

2006 Lebanon War:

44 Israelis

1200 Hizbullah and other Lebanese

2009 Gaza War:

10 Israelis

709 Hamas, 295 Arab civilians

 

Looks to me as if not only is this the smallest conflict in the entire Middle-East, but the wars are also getting smaller and smaller all the time, while Israel is doing better and better every time.

Yet you, Lula, tell me that it's "getting worse" and that Israel's strategy is wrong?

May I ask whether your claim that it's "getting worse" was based on ignorance or was it a lie?

 

A few notes:

1. While Arab casualties are higher than Israeli casualties, the percentage of civilians, women, and children on the Israeli side is higher. This is despite Israel protecting her civilians and the Arabs using their as human shields.

2. No army in the world has a better ratio of military vs civilian casualties on the enemy side than the Israeli. Yet Israel is being accused of and condemned for "targeting civilians". Must be like the "genocide" Israel is executing: Israel is just not very good at it.

3. Many of the Arab casualties are due to fighting among Arabs yet are counted against Israel. Hamas killed more Gaza civilians in a year than Israel, yet Israel is the bad guy and "we are all Hamas now".

 

 

on Oct 27, 2009

The ancient Isrealites were a religious nation backed by God until, as Jacob foretold the "sceptre", the authority, the soveregnity of the House of King david was taken away. That was to happen, and did happen, about the time when "the Expected of Nations", the  Messias, came and everything for Jews and their history changed.

That is your religious belief, not established fact.

Using the same excuse you can take away Indian land in the Americans, which, incidentally, Roman Catholic kings did do.

BTW, I asked you whether the land you live on was bought from the Indians or stolen and then eventually sold to you. You never answered.

You seemed so worried about the land the Zionists bought in Israel that I figured you might be able to do something for good Kharma and give back the land you live on and return to Britain or whereever your family came from. Then you don't have to worry so about the Jews settling on "Arab land".

Remember: de-colonisation starts in your own home!

And if you tell me that you took it from the British who took it from the Indians, I'll laugh!

 

on Oct 27, 2009

Here are the numbers again, rounded to 50s.

In the Lebanese Civil War I split the Lebanese deaths 50-50 for both sides. I counted the Arabs killed by the PLO during the Intifadas as deaths on Israel's side (since those Arabs hardly supported the PLO):

6400 12000
200 1650 (Suez War)
1000 11000
1600 5000
9650 19000 (Lebanese Civil War)
1150 1100
1650 4850 (Second "Intifada")
50 1200
0 1000

Apart from three exceptions (Suez War, Lebanese Civil War, and the second "Intifada") the numbers are on a clear downwards trend. With a bit of luck the next war will kill nobody at all.

Note that the Oslo Peace Treaty caused one of the exceptions, when Arafat broke the treaty and restarted the war, killing more Israelis than in the previous "Intifada". (This event is widely known as Israel breaking the peace treaty.)

The other two exceptions were simply due to the Lebanese Civil war being a separate war to the conflict, namely a war between Lebanon and the Arabs, and the Suez War being a very small event indeed.

Either way, since 1948 the numbers of victims has been reduced to 10% of the original in 2006.

If every conflict developed like this, the world would be a better place than it is today.

For the next peace agreement the "Palestinians" will have to sign a passus that states that they won't break the treaty, not even for an "Intifada", and not even if a Jew walks on the Temple Mount.

 

on Oct 27, 2009

When I say it's going to get worse Leauki, I'm looking ahead at prophecy.  I have no reason to doubt it because much of prophecy has been fulfilled exactly as written including Israel coming into their own land. 

I'm looking ahead at the last conflict still on the horizon.  Scriptures say that when the dust settles 2/3 of the Jews will be killed.  Not sure what the numbers will be but the way the Jews are streaming into Israel today, this is going to be a heavy casualty. 

But I will promise you before this all happens you will see a (false) peace plan in the works first precipitating what will be the biggest blood bath ever.   It will be AFTER the new temple is built. 

So, how can you say that the modern state of Isreal's continual state of war and all the blood shed and oppression of the Palestinian people (ethnic cleansing) is "nothing short of miraculous"?

because it was NOT the Jews doing the bloodshed.  They were the victims and were slaughtered like sheep by their much more powerful enemies...such as the Romans and before that it was the King of Syria etc.  They have been the oppressed since 586 BC when Nebuchadnezzer came in and seized Jerusalem killing many and carrying away the rest leaving Jerusalem in ruins. 

I'm sorry because I know you seem to like to blame the Jews here, but that's just not the case Lula. 

If you read anything political about the Jews from the Gentiles say going back to the 1700's-1800's you'd see what a joke it was that they would ever have their own homeland.  The Jews were despised and hated by almost everyone having no home to call their own.  They were the "Christ" killers and were persecuted mightily for it.  That's why I say it was miraculous that they now have a Country to call their own at all. 

The ancient Isrealites were a religious nation backed by God until, as Jacob foretold the "sceptre", the authority, the soveregnity of the House of King david was taken away. That was to happen, and did happen, about the time when "the Expected of Nations", the Messias, came and everything for Jews and their history changed.

IF you knew your scriptures INSTEAD of following these books you're reading Lula you'd read that when God left Israel around the time of the Babylonian Captivity he left thru the EAST Gate (the glory of the Lord departed-Icabod) and when he returns he will return and come in the East Gate. Judgement always comes from the East. 

We see the glory of the Lord departing in Ezek 10:18-19 and then the return in 43:1-5 which is yet to come. 

Had Jesus been accepted as Messiah at his first coming Christ presumably would have entered the Temple by the same gate.  When rejected, He departed through it.  From what I understand for years Rabbis, when buried, requested to be facing East so that when the Messiah came in the resurrection they would be the first to see Him. 

on Oct 27, 2009

When I say it's going to get worse Leauki, I'm looking ahead at prophecy.

I understand that that is what you mean. I have no problem with that.

Saying that it is getting worse because you believe it based on prophecy is fine with me. That's a solid foundation.

But Lula is saying that it is getting worse based on current facts on the ground. And the plain fact is that Israel's strategy has been working and the wars are getting smaller and smaller.

 

on Oct 27, 2009

But Lula is saying that it is getting worse based on current facts on the ground. And the plain fact is that Israel's strategy has been working and the wars are getting smaller and smaller.

Lula is being deceived because she'd rather listen to men then to God.  That's why she stayed away from the scriptures I put down above and instead went after my personal opinion and what I wrote instead of what God wrote.  She has no answer for the scriptures because they contradict what her outside books are telling her.   My guess right now?  She's on a hunt how to explain away these scriptures and that's why she didn't them right away.  

The fact is the Abrahamic Covenant is NON-conditional.  The land belongs to Abraham's descendants forever!  And it's alot larger than they're fighting over right now.    That's why Abraham was put to sleep when God moved between the body parts.  This was a well known custom between two parties when they made an agreement basically saying what happened to this dead animal, torn in pieces, is what will happen to me if I break the covenant.  Abraham was put to sleep while God alone walked thru the pieces. 

God's word is sure; his promises are kept and this we can bank on. 

on Oct 27, 2009

Lula is being deceived because she'd rather listen to men then to God.  That's why she stayed away from the scriptures I put down above and instead went after my personal opinion and what I wrote instead of what God wrote.  She has no answer for the scriptures because they contradict what her outside books are telling her.   My guess right now?  She's on a hunt how to explain away these scriptures and that's why she didn't them right away

Seems like it, yes.

 

The fact is the Abrahamic Covenant is NON-conditional.  The land belongs to Abraham's descendants forever!

That is indeed what the Bible says.

But the problem here is not only Lula's disbelief in Biblical prophecy but also her inability to differentiate between secular Jews (who made up the vast majority of Zionists) and G-d's will.

Do you have any idea where this weird belief comes from that Zionists are Jewish religious fundamentalists? For goodness' sake, Israel is a secular state that allows abortion and recognises gay marriage. There is nothing Jewish fundamentalist about the state of Israel (except for the fact that religious Jews also live there). Or does anybody here think that legal abortions and gay marriage are fundamental to the Jewish religion? (They know a different religion than I do.)

We can argue about abortion and gay marriage until the end of time, but shouldn'we all at least agree that a state that allows these things is not a religious state?

Zionism is a secular movement. The fact that it fits into religious worldviews like yours, KFC, can simply mean that G-d is using a secular non-religious movement for His own goals. I wish Lula would differentiate between your faith and Zionism. (Not that there is anything wrong with either your faith or Zionism, but they are simply not the same.)

 

God's word is sure; his promises are kept and this we can bank on.

I fully believe that.

on Oct 27, 2009

Zionism is a secular movement. The fact that it fits into religious worldviews like yours, KFC, can simply mean that G-d is using a secular non-religious movement for His own goals.

This is true.  God uses the secular all the time for his plan and purposes and we have countless examples of that written down for us.  Some end up coming to the faith and some don't. 

Many believe Judas was a Zionist.  Zionism fervor was running high during the time of Jesus because the crowds that were following him thought he might be the prophet that Moses spoke of and the Messiah that would liberate them once and for all.  While he was that, it wasn't according to their wills Christ moved but His own.  He was working on God's schedule not the schedule of the people.   So Judas, turning in or betraying Christ for 30 pieces of silver (he later threw away) thought he could pressure Christ to make his move.  Force his hand.  When it didn't work out exactly as he planned he killed himself knowing how terribly wrong he was. 

So there is just another case of where Zionism can go wrong and also that quite often the Zionists are the ones, as you pointed out Leauki who are non-religious.  Obviously there is some truth of that because they are once again working on their own schedules rather than waiting on God's.   We must remember God is very longsuffering and we need to be patient. 

 

on Oct 27, 2009

Obviously there is some truth of that because they are once again working on their own schedules rather than waiting on God's.

I don't think they are working on their own schedule. It's all G-d's schedule.

2000 years ago those who believed that the Jews/Israelites (and not the Romans) were the rightful owners of the land were also correct.

 

on Oct 27, 2009

2000 years ago those who believed that the Jews/Israelites (and not the Romans) were the rightful owners of the land were also correct.

yes, true but so many times, like Judas, they tried to force God's hand by going ahead of Him.  Instead of being victorious they were slaughtered.   We can read of such things in the OT books exactly like this.  When God was with them and they moved along with His will and not their own, they made progress.  But when they presumed and went ahead of God they were defeated.  Time and time again. 

 Think about the Zionists and their uprising during the first century and how the Romans came in and rolled over them destroying their temple for good and killing many in the process.   They never became victorious over the Romans and instead were dispersed.  Think about Abraham and how he and Sarai went ahead of God and took matters into their own hands forcing Abraham to be the father of Ishmael.  Ishmael, the father of the Arab nations and Isaac have been at war ever since.  This always happens when we don't wait upon  God. 

God knows our impatience and allows us to walk into these troubles, but then he uses these times to further his plan.  It's almost like a game of chess.   He knows exactly what our move will be because he knows  the heart of man.  He knows what we're made of.   He then makes his move accordingly. 

 

 

on Oct 27, 2009

God's word is sure; his promises are kept and this we can bank on.

 

leauki posts:

Yet you, Lula, tell me that it's "getting worse" and that Israel's strategy is wrong?

May I ask whether your claim that it's "getting worse" was based on ignorance or was it a lie?

Actually this was KFC's statement, one that I happen to agree with.... although not for the same reasons as she outlined in her response #6.

When I say it's going to get worse Leauki, I'm looking ahead at prophecy. I have no reason to doubt it because much of prophecy has been fulfilled exactly as written including Israel coming into their own land.

I'm looking ahead at the last conflict still on the horizon. Scriptures say that when the dust settles 2/3 of the Jews will be killed. Not sure what the numbers will be but the way the Jews are streaming into Israel today, this is going to be a heavy casualty.

But I will promise you before this all happens you will see a (false) peace plan in the works first precipitating what will be the biggest blood bath ever. It will be AFTER the new temple is built.

Which is nothing more than predicting the future through misinterpretaion of Scripture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

on Oct 28, 2009

Which is nothing more than predicting the future through misinterpretaion of Scripture.

Well, I don't know about you, but KFC's interpretation at least explains why so many Jew suddenly moved to Israel.

You, on the other hand, seem to be consistently wrong.

 

on Oct 28, 2009

Which is nothing more than predicting the future through misinterpretaion of Scripture.

You keep saying this type of thing as if you're tying to convince yourself,  but not once here have you answered the scriptures I gave above.  So we are to believe you because you "say so?"   You've for the most part ignored the main point of this article.  I put it here to help you understand clearly, Lula, the situation but instead you are being very stubborn not wanting to see what is right in front of you. 

So instead of going on the attack, answer the scriptures and give me your "correct" interpretation of it.  But make sure you can back it up with other scriptures. 

Com'on Lula, you're smarter than that. 

 

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