It's An Unconditional Covenant
Published on October 26, 2009 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion

Since ancient times there hasn't been a piece of Real Estate more fought over than that little parcel of land, no bigger than the state of RI, in the Middle East that we now call Israel.  To understand the conflict over there is to understand history.  This land has passed hands countless times even well before the Romans had control over it in the first century and has continued ever since.  Much blood has been shed in that region, more than any other, well before their 1948 Independance Day.  It still continues today promising to get worse with each passing moment.  There seems to be no end in sight. 

So what's going on?  Why can't the leaders of the world seem to achieve peace in the Middle East?  Why does the Psalmist tell us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem written during the times of King David 14 generations before the birth of Christ?  Yet, from then on there has been everything but peace in the region.  What are we missing? 

Many Christians, as do I, believe that land was promised to Abraham and his descendants since almost the beginning of time.  This land was promised to them forever and has been written down for centuries in the oldest manuscripts we have today.  Moses in the Pentateuch outlined the story of how all this came to be and then the well written history recorded by the Jews showed the partial conquest and the failures that led to them never obtaining the promises given to Abraham completely. 

Moses warned before he died in Deut 7:1-5:

1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.  Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles  and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

After Moses died, the fearless Joshua was to lead the people of Israel into the Promised Land.  All they had to do was follow God's commands (above) and do what he said.  God would hand their enemies over to them easily enough.  

In Joshua 21 it's been pointed out,  by those who wish to dismiss the claim to the land by the Jews, as already being fulfilled because written in that chapter it says this: 

 43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

The interpretation of these three verses must be considered in the light of what happens next.  The Lord had not failed to keep His promise.  It was unfaithful Israel who failed to keep their end of the bargain. 

After Joshua's death God gave instruction for the continued battle to obtain the land.  So obviously they had not possessed it all quite yet because they were continuing to fight for the rest of it after the death of Joshua.  Just reading Judges (book written after Joshua's death) we can see they did not have possession of the entire land before Joshua died.  Without brave Joshua the people faltered.  Here's what happened:

 1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"  2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands." 19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. 21 The Benjamites, however, failed to dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the Benjamites.  27 But Manasseh did not drive out the people of Beth Shan or Taanach or Dor or Ibleam or Megiddo and their surrounding settlements, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that land.

29 Nor did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, but the Canaanites continued to live there among them. 30 Neither did Zebulun drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron or Nahalol, who remained among them; but they did subject them to forced labor. 31 Nor did Asher drive out those living in Acco or Sidon or Ahlab or Aczib or Helbah or Aphek or Rehob, 32 and because of this the people of Asher lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land. 33 Neither did Naphtali drive out those living in Beth Shemesh or Beth Anath; but the Naphtalites too lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land, and those living in Beth Shemesh and Beth Anath became forced laborers for them. 34 The Amorites confined the Danites to the hill country, not allowing them to come down into the plain.

They faltered big time.  God was certainly not happy with them.  He said this to them: 

 1 The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides   (even today) and their gods will be a snare to you."

20 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel and said, "Because this nation has violated the covenant that I laid down for their forefathers and has not listened to me, 21 I will no longer drive out before them any of the nations Joshua left when he died. 22 I will use them to test Israel and see whether they will keep the way of the LORD and walk in it as their forefathers did." 23 The LORD had allowed those nations to remain; he did not drive them out at once by giving them into the hands of Joshua.

So that last underlined section gives the answer that while he gave them into the hands of Joshua all was not completed until the Israelites did their part of the plan...and then look what happens...remembering at the very beginning what God had said to Moses back in the book of Deuteronomy and repeated many times:

 1 These are the nations the LORD left to test all those Israelites who had not experienced any of the wars in Canaan 2 (he did this only to teach warfare to the descendants of the Israelites who had not had previous battle experience): 3 the five rulers of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites living in the Lebanon mountains from Mount Baal Hermon to Lebo  Hamath. 4 They were left to test the Israelites to see whether they would obey the LORD's commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses.  5 The Israelites lived among the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 6 They took their daughters in marriage and gave their own daughters to their sons, and served their gods.

We see they directly defied God.  Because they did not do what He commanded them to do, they paid the consequences.  Eventually they ending up in captivity.  The nation, for centuries, had been  displaced until 1948 when they were allowed to make the land their home for the first time since the Babylonian Captivity in 586 B.C. 

Now while the Mosaic covenant was conditional, the promise or Covenant to Abraham was unconditional.  That Covenant said that Abraham and his descendants would forever be linked to the land of Canaan with a much larger area promised than what they have today.  The land promised was laid out clearly to Abraham with all the borders mentioned and includes parts of or the whole of Jordan, Israel, Egypt, Syria, Turkey etc.  Put it this way, it's alot larger than the little piece they are fighting over today. 

So the question is, when does the Covenant with Abraham become a reality?  When does the time come that Jerusalem will enjoy the Peace that we are all supposed to be praying about?   

Ezekiel has the answer to that. That is the rest of the story, but today we are seeing the beginning of the fulfillment to Abraham right before our very eyes.  Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was nothing short of miraculous.  And it took the likes of a very evil man to make it all happen showing us that God indeed can take something evil and turn it around for good. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Comments (Page 2)
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on Oct 28, 2009
Sorry, No, I'm not ignoring what you wrote, ..there is only so much time and I've been occupied with trying to buy a house!
on Oct 28, 2009

there is only so much time and I've been occupied with trying to buy a house!

Which brings us back to my question I had to you regarding your claim that the Jews "stole" the land from the "Palestinians"...

The house you are buying, does it stand on land somebody bought from the Indians or did they steal it and sell it to you afterwards?

 

on Oct 29, 2009

Interesting though that you open with "Much blood has been shed in that region, more than any other, well before their 1948 Independance Day. It still continues today promising to get worse with each passing moment. There seems to be no end in sight.

and then in your closing paragraph say:

Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was nothing short of miraculous. And it took the likes of a very evil man to make it all happen showing us that God indeed can take something evil and turn it around for good.

So, how can you say that the modern state of Isreal's continual state of war and all the blood shed and oppression of the Palestinian people (ethnic cleansing) is "nothing short of miraculous"?

Please answer my question KFC. 

Almighty God doesn't care about Jewish empire building...He cares about Jewish souls....The Messias came, and redeemed all mankiind, and established a new and everlasting covenant which applies to the Jews.

 

on Oct 30, 2009

Almighty God doesn't care about Jewish empire building..

 

Please don't call the second-smallest country in the Middle-East an "empire". It's ridiculous.

 

.He cares about Jewish souls....

But oddly enough, your god doesn't understand what Jerusalem means to a Jew.

 

The Messias came, and redeemed all mankind, and established a new and everlasting covenant which applies to the Jews.

He failed to redeem me. I am still outside Israel, I still cannot see the Third Temple, and I find that there is still no world peace.

 

What about my question about your new house? Does it stand on land somebody bought from the Indians or did they steal it and sell it to you afterwards? Why are you so open about claiming that the Jews stole their land from the Arabs but are suddenly so quiet when your own sins are addressed? Don't tell me that you find my question unecessary and impolite. You yourself made it clear that you find it not only appropriate to question land ownership but also to claim that bought land was indeed "stolen".

Must be that "religion of love" that you profess that makes you accuse others of theft but not answer questions about where your own property comes from.

 

on Oct 30, 2009

Please answer my question KFC. Almighty God doesn't care about Jewish empire building...He cares about Jewish souls....The Messias came, and redeemed all mankiind, and established a new and everlasting covenant which applies to the Jews.

I did answer it way back in #6...there was no way in heck that the Jews were going to be allowed a homeland by the mentality of the world. This was certainly proved out by their wanderings for 2,000 years with no place to call home.  There was certainly no affection for the Jewish people and they struggled for centuries just to stay alive and together.  Doing so is miraculous in itself when all other such transient groups incorporated themselves into other societies...not to mention they would be allowed to set up a country (that was theirs in the first place) to call their own.   

let's stick to the main point of this whole article which is Israel and her land are linked forever... 

so now I have to ask you...why are you continuing to sidestep the scriptures  I gave here showing you quite clearly that the Jews never did have the promise to Abraham fulfilled as of yet?  And what about the 12 gates and 12 foundations in Revelation that I mentioned in my first comment here? 

and as far as Jewish "empire building"...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  What about that empire that was started in Rome in the 4th century? 

You say this: 

Sorry, No, I'm not ignoring what you wrote, ..there is only so much time and I've been occupied with trying to buy a house!

but all indications are telling me something else by the long responses I've seen you write on other blogs.  I think the reason you are "ignoring" this is because you haven't been able to find a good RCC apologetic book to explain this one away.  Am I right here Lula? 

 

 

on Oct 30, 2009

This was certainly proved out by their wanderings for 2,000 years with no place to call home.  There was certainly no affection for the Jewish people and they struggled for centuries just to stay alive and together.  Doing so is miraculous in itself when all other such transient groups incorporated themselves into other societies...not to mention they would be allowed to set up a country (that was theirs in the first place) to call their own.   

Unfortunately miracles never last for long, and the world is already trying to undo what happened.

 

let's stick to the main point of this whole article which is Israel and her land are linked forever... 

so now I have to ask you...why are you continuing to sidestep the scriptures  I gave here showing you quite clearly that the Jews never did have the promise to Abraham fulfilled as of yet?  And what about the 12 gates and 12 foundations in Revelation that I mentioned in my first comment here? 

I am curious too.

 

and as far as Jewish "empire building"...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  What about that empire that was started in Rome in the 4th century?

http://www.israeli-art.com/satire/weltmacht.htm

Everything is a bit more evil when Jews do it. Buying becomes stealing. Surviving a war becomes aggression. And, obviously, having a tiny state becomes "empire building".

 

on Oct 30, 2009

The land belongs to Abraham's descendants forever! ...


God's word is sure; his promises are kept and this we can bank

I agree; God's Word is sure....it's His written revealed Truth.  

Now  since we agree on this point, what does God's Word say about WHO are Abraham's descendants?

 

 

on Oct 30, 2009

Now  since we agree on this point, what does God's Word say about WHO are Abraham's descendants?

Did he say anything about who your parents' descendants are?

 

on Oct 31, 2009

Now since we agree on this point, what does God's Word say about WHO are Abraham's descendants?

First off, you didn't answer any of my questions in my Post #20.  Why not? 

Your question is missing the whole point.  This blog isn't about WHO Abrahm's descendants are.  This blog is about how the Land and the People are linked forever because of the promise God made to Abraham way back in Genesis.  You've come on record to say that the Abrahamic Covenant has been totally fulfilled in Joshua 21 but haven't quite explained away the scriptures I gave you above. 

So if the Covenant was totally fulfilled as you say, what diff does it make now WHO Abraham's descendants are today?   Is that because you believe the RCC is now the NEW ISRAEL?  Therefore the land now by default belongs to you? 

 

on Oct 31, 2009

 

kfc posts:

Your question is missing the whole point. This blog isn't about WHO Abrahm's descendants are. This blog is about how the Land and the People are linked forever because of the promise God made to Abraham way back in Genesis. You've come on record to say that the Abrahamic Covenant has been totally fulfilled in Joshua 21 but haven't quite explained away the scriptures I gave you above.

Egads KFC!  Can you think and reason beyond the answers that you already have prepared to support and defend your claims and belief in Rapturism/Dispensational Milleniallism and Christian Zionism?

The Scriptures you provided here prove Almighty God's promise of earthly land was fulfilled and fully support my comments in the other blog in whcih we discussed Joshua 21. The ancient Hebrews and Isrealites received all the earthly land and they possessed it and found peace there and thrived....turns out only about 7,000 of them remained faithful and obedient, while many others were not and sinned against God, and becasue of that, slowly, over time they lost their possession of the land....the last in 70AD, as Jesus predicted at His trial, 

Everything changed with Christ Who came to overcome death and Satan and make all things new. From that moment on, people will have to decide to be with Him or against Him. With Christ's birth, life, passion, death and resurrecton, the 7 decades of convenantal transition began.    Christ sought after His own people first, but they (not all) rejected Him as well as the New and Eternal Covenant established in His Precious Blood.

Yes, of course, no doubt the Jews are linked forever as part of salvation history and the ancient Hebrews through Abraham and Isrealites through Moses are part of that...that mission of a special people in covenant with Almighty God who called them to Canaan is now complete....The Jews through biblical Judaism embraced monotheism and gave us the Messias. With, through and in Christ, salvation is not about the Jews being at war and acquiring earthly land....Modern day Isreal is not the "miraculous" fulfillment of land promised in Genesis.

God's salvation history and plan is found in Scripture...but you must take off the Rapturist, Milleniallist, Zionist glasses and dump that mindset to see and understand it. You must stop making the Holy Bible a slave to those false, heretical beliefs. Stop forcing the Holy Bible to furnish support for those.

Now back to my question.  What does God's Word say about WHO are Abraham's descendants?

Your question is missing the whole point. This blog isn't about WHO Abrahm's descendants are.

really? Let's copy and paste your own words...how many times do "Abraham and his descendants" appear in your article and comments?

You write in the 3rd paragraph of your article:

Many Christians, as do I, believe that land was promised to Abraham and his descendants since almost the beginning of time. This land was promised to them forever and has been written down for centuries in the oldest manuscripts we have today. Moses in the Pentateuch outlined the story of how all this came to be and then the well written history recorded by the Jews showed the partial conquest and the failures that led to them never obtaining the promises given to Abraham completely.

Later you claim that

That Covenant said that Abraham and his descendants would forever be linked to the land of Canaan with a much larger area promised than what they have today.

post 8

The land belongs to Abraham's descendants forever! And it's alot larger than they're fighting over right now.

So indeed, it's a straight to the point question to ask:  what does God's Word say about WHO are Abraham's descendants?

My question IS the very essence of the whole point and the correct answer to it IS the essence as to the fulfillment of Almighty God's promise of land to Abraham and his seed forever.

Who is Abraham's seed? 

Are the Jews living in Isreal or anywhere else in the world Abraham's seed or not? If so, why? If not, why?

 

 

 

on Nov 01, 2009

The Scriptures you provided here prove Almighty God's promise of earthly land was fulfilled and fully support my comments in the other blog in whcih we discussed Joshua 21. The ancient Hebrews and Isrealites received all the earthly land and they possessed it and found peace there and thrived....turns out only about 7,000 of them remained faithful and obedient, while many others were not and sinned against God, and becasue of that, slowly, over time they lost their possession of the land....the last in 70AD, as Jesus predicted at His trial,

The scriptures I gave here prove that the entire land was in their possession as promised to Abraham back in Gen 15?  How? Didn't I just give you scriptures showing otherwise?   Didn't I just give you scriptures showing you they hadn't possessed all the land because of their disobedience?   Where did you get 7,000?  What does 70AD have to do with anything? 

 They lost their hold on Jerusalem in 586 BC, way before 70 AD.  They have been under domination of the Gentiles since then with one empire after another holding the noose over their heads. 

 It's quite clear God is saying since they didn't hold up their end of the bargain, those living then would not be able to conquer all the land that God had handed over to them.  It was already handed over to them, but they didn't go in and take it like they were supposed to.  Lack of faith prevented them from doing so. 

So where does it say here what you are claiming? 

on Nov 01, 2009

Are the Jews living in Isreal or anywhere else in the world Abraham's seed or not? 

Yes.

And so are some of the nominal Arabs, namely the descendants of Yishmael.

 

If so, why?

Abraham's grand son founded a nation. That nation still exists. It survived for longer than many others and will probably survive for longer than most.

The nation of Israel existed before Moses received Torah from G-d.

Whenever the Jews could be blamed for the death of Jesus there was never a doubt that they were the descendants of Abraham and of the people who lived in Israel with Jesus 2000 years ago.

Whenever gentiles wanted to murder Jews, there was no doubt who they were.

Why is it suddenly in doubt now that the Jews are too strong to be murdered?

 

They lost their hold on Jerusalem in 586 BC, way before 70 AD.  They have been under domination of the Gentiles since then with one empire after another holding the noose over their heads. 

That's true. Although we didn't mind the Persians. We have fond memories of them and accepted them freely as our rulers.

On a side note, KFC, did you know that the Christian nation of the Assyrians consists of several million people?

They are native to northern Iraq, speak Assyrian Neo-Aramaic (the original Assyrian language has long died out), and follow the Assyrian/Persian Church (so-called Nestorians), the Orthodox Church, and some, the Chaldaeans, follow the Catholic Church. (Their close relatives, the Aramaeans, are Oriental Orthodox.)

Like the Jewish people in the near past, the majority of the Assyrian people live in the diaspora, in Europe and the Americas. They, like Israel, were hoping for their own state as well, but the British and French gave everything to the Arabs and the Jews remained the only non-Arab people to get their own state.

I wonder what part they have to play in G-d's plan? Don't you think this is really interesting?

 

on Nov 01, 2009

Is that because you believe the RCC is now the NEW ISRAEL?  Therefore the land now by default belongs to you?  

If she believes that I can only assume that she supports the Arab side because she hopes the Jews and Arabs will kill each other so the Romans can take over the land again.

In that case I hope the Turks will take it back.

 

on Nov 02, 2009

In that case I hope the Turks will take it back.

That's not going to happen.  Go over and read Isaiah 61 for giggles and shakes and tell me what you see.  Expecially v3-11. 

This is Israel's future to look forward to.   In the Temple Christ stood up and read v1-2a and stopped in mid-sentence declaring this was fulfilled in their presence and then HE sat down.  He was saying I'm here to bring Isaiah's prophecy to pass but the rest will come later.  I think we are beginning to see this "later" right now. 

Notice also if you continue and go to Chap 66 it says this concerning Israel:

"Before she travailed she brought forth; before her pain came she was delivered of a man child.  Who has heard such a thing?  Who has seen such things?  Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?  or shall a nation be born at once?  for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.  Shall I bring to the birth and not cause to bring forth?  saith the Lord?  Shall I cause to bring forth and shut the womb?  saith the Lord?"   v7-9

This is VERY interesting because what it's saying is that Israel gave birth to a son (singular) BEFORE she travailed.  That's not how birth works.  Normally a woman first goes thru the labor pains and then is rewarded with the birth forgetting her pain. 

But it also says that as soon as she does go thru this travail to come she will immediately have her children (plural) and a nation will be born in a day.  God says quite plainly that he's not going to have her suffer for nothing and shut the womb.  After their suffering HE will bring forth the birth.  I think we saw this in 1948.  Immediately AFTER the intense suffering (travail) leading up to WWII they seemed to become a Nation overnight.    I think we're still seeing the fulfillment of this scripture even now. 

I'm seeing two things here.  One is physical and what I just described, the other has spiritual implications meaning at the second coming of Christ all living Israelites will be saved and Israel's complete restoration will be quick like a woman who gives birth before labor pains begain.  Zech 12:10, 13:1. 

Basically Israel's suffering will end up in delivery. 

 

on Nov 02, 2009

I wonder what part they have to play in G-d's plan? Don't you think this is really interesting?

The Assyrians according to the OT were a cruel and very wicked people.  As far as I know, I thought they were assimilated as the other people groups were.  I never heard of the Assyrians called Christian before.  I'm not sure what you mean by the "Christian nation of Assyria?" 

 

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