I know that in Timothy we learn that "the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth". That definition of Church doesn't match with yours as the Church being the followers of Christ.

Actually, the first Church was the Church of Jerusalem, where the first council was held in 49AD.

"In the same chapter of the Book of the Apocalypse 21:8, it says, "but as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars there lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur...""

This Lulapilgrim I find most interesting.

You tell me that I should stop trying to discredit Paul, I'm not trying to discredit him so much as I'm trying to get to the truth and heart of the matter.  KFC says that Paul's heart changed and that makes everything that he did in his past null and void.  Wiped the slate clean so to speak.  Yet I am of the knowledge that no sin goes unnoticed.  Jesus said that a good tree bears only good fruit, and a bad tree only bad.  That a good tree can not bear bad fruit and a bad tree can not bear good fruit.  he doesn't mention anything about any tree good or bad bearing any kind of fruit other than what fruit is after it's self, nor did he mention "changes of heart".  If it is possible to have such then why was it never mentioned by him?  Why did he not cover this stipulation that would refer to Paul specifically?  I find it hard to think that Jesus would overlook anything.  And if it's true that Jesus did indeed appear to Paul and make him a disciple why didn't he cover this in his description of false prophets?  Surely he would have known about Paul when he spoke these words, if as you say, he's God incarnate, wouldn't he?  All this he spoke of in relation to false prophets and how one could know them.

It is my understanding that a prophet is one who relates to the people the word of God that has been specifically received by them directly from God, along with warnings of bad behavior and the consequences of such.  In this Paul does fall into this category.

How do you reconcile all this with Paul? And how do you reconcile what you said above about the punishment of murderers when it comes to  Paul?  I can not.  There's something that bugs me about this.  I've heard you and KFC say quite often that something is implied.  Is it implied or are others simply thinking that it's implied?  I personally think that it's dead wrong to add or subtract anything to the word of Jesus or God.  I don't think that Jesus implied anything, I think he was most specific about what he said, and I think it's most wrong to change or modify anything he said or even to second guess what he was saying.  What he said, in my point of view, stands as it is.

As for John, Elijah he was, not in the spirit of Elijah's ministery, but Elijah himself.  Just as Jesus will return, and return he will and not just someone else in the "spirit of Jesus", so it was with Elijah.  Jesus said it, and he didn't say in the spirit of his ministry either.  With this he was most specific, as he always is.  While KFC mentions this one and that one that came before as speaking of the spirit of Elijah's ministery returning, I am reminded that Jesus knew far more about this subject than anyone who came before him.

You are not the first critic of St.Paul and won't be the last. Even the Apostles at first were so suspicious about him that St. Barnabus had to introduce him to them and assure them of the authenticity of Saul's conversion.

We certainly can all relate in wanting to get to the truth and heart of the matter most especially on this topic.

For me, it's quite simple...as long as it's on the pages of my Douay Rheims Bible, then it's absolute truth directly from God through the Holy Spirit and therefore without error. That said doesn't mean the Holy Bible is easy to understand...for it is not and that's why the Church is the official interpreter...I don't go by my own private interpretation.

I agree with KFC on this point, however, a conversion is much more than just a change of heart. After all, someone may have a change of heart about smoking. A conversion at least to me, goes to the heart, mind and soul of a person. It amounts to completely new life. Mainly the soul for that is where St.Paul's sins against God. Now through the merits of Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross, we have God's grace given in the Sacrament of Confession for the forgiveness sins with the condition of course that one wants to acknowledge his sins, repent of them and promise to do his best to sin no more.

I've packed my Bible so cannot cite the passage but there is one that teaches that once we acknowledge our sins, repent of them with the firm intention of sinning no more, then they are forgiven, and God remembers them no more. AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY SO MERCIFUL OF ALMIGHTY GOD THAT IT IS UNFATHOMABLE TO ME. Scripture teaches are sins are no more and as far away as the east is from the west. Once sins are forgiven, our souls become white as the snow.

Absolutely agree for God is All-knowing of our heart, mind and soul..our every thought, word and action. We will ALL be judged on how we know, love and serve God and our neighbor for His sake. 

God is our Judge and we will pay for our sins down "to the last farthing".

This idea of "eternal security" i e that a "born again" believer can know for sure that he will go to heaven is sheer nonsense...false assurety and dangerous thinking.

I'm not going to be able to join in with the discussion much after this as my computer is being readied for the move.

Be assured Jesus is God-Man and didn't overlook anything. It's just that the Holy Bible is not the complete and sole source of Truth and furthermore, consider what St.John wrote in the last passage of his Gospel, 

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself coould not contain the books that would be written." st.John 21:25.

Thanks for your quick reply to all my questions Lulapilgrim.  Good luck with your move, and I do hope that you return soon.  I have a million and one questions and am eager to hear your response to them. 

Isn't that what every individual is supposed to do? Isn't religion supposed to be personal and subjective? Aren't you supposed to keep it to yourself?

Once again, I call Priestcraft.

You keep saying this; repeating yourself but don't give any scripture showing your POV.  Show me where it says ANYWHERE in scripture that we CAN'T know.   You disagree with Peter, Jesus and Paul.  Here's just a sampling from each. 

Peter said:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again  (born again) unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.  To an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you.  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 

Jesus  said:

"And this is the Father's will which has sent me that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day."  John 6:39

Paul said: 

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."  2 Thess 2:13 

Why are we given these promises Lula if we can't claim them?  Notice Jesus said "all?"   If God has chosen us as he says here, he will make sure we will spend eternity with him.  Peter is saying that we are kept by the power of God.  If it were left to us, then I would have to agree with you, but since it falls on God and his name he will do what he says he will do.  Jesus said in John 14 he was going to prepare a place for us.  He's not going to tell us that and then yank it away because we fall down once in a while which we all do.  Like I keep saying, Noah fell down in the boat but never fell out of the boat.  He was protected by the arms of God. Even tho we are not always faithful God is faithful still.  We are humans and live in the flesh.  We will make mistakes and sin.  We sin because we were born sinners. 

one more for good measure from John:

"These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God."  1 John 5:13

The Greek word for "know" here is "oida" and means "totally sure; no doubt."  There's other words for know but it's interesting this word "oida" is used.  John is saying he's writing to let us know that WE CAN KNOW. 

So there you have it.  John, Jesus, Paul and Peter are contradicting you Lula. 

I agree Lula but it starts with a changed heart. 

This morning I was teaching a bible study and we are on John 4; the woman at the well.  Remeber her?  When we started with her we see that she was at the well at noontime to avoid people.  She was immoral, an outcast,  having had five husbands and living with one that wasn't her husband. 

Normally the women would go to the well together in the cool of the day but here this immoral woman showed up (alone) at high noon during the absolute heat of the day.  Here we see a woman by herself because she was most likely shunned.  After meeting Christ face to face and confronting her sin she recognized Christ as Savior and ran into town to tell the people.

The first thing she did was give her testimony and she was so believeable and bold the men came to the well to see for themselves.  What we saw with this woman was her changed heart.  She was so excited she left her waterpot behind (represents the old order) and took of the living water that Christ offered her.  This boldness and testimony about her life (she wasn't willing to confess at first she was living in sin to Jesus)   was the evidence of a changed heart that we all have when we first meet him. 

I'm not sure about religion but what Jesus told us is that while  our relationship with him  is personal it should be objective as well.   His truth is outside of ourselves.  Whether we wish to believe it or not, He is truth.  Our belief or lack therof  about Him has no bearing on the matter.

We are NOT supposed to keep it to ourself but to go out and tell others.  He wanted us to go out and spread the gospel.  It's likened to seed.  He said the harvest is plentiful but the laborors are few.  We are to be busy sowing and reaping  as we are given the opportunity to do so. 

Again, you're only taking what you want.  I gave you Luke 1:17.  All of scripture is the word of God.  All of it.  Not just the words in red.  You have to take all the scriptures, lay them out and look at them as a whole.  It's like putting a puzzle together.  So as far as Elijah vs John is concerned take all the scriptures starting with Malachi and piece it all together. 

Jesus also said that there wasn't a greater man born of woman than John.  Yet John was clear in John 1:21.  He wasn't Elijah.  Was he lying?  It's kind of odd to make such a statement about one who was totally wrong or lying.  Wouldn't John know if he were Elijah or not? 

 His name was John, not Elijah.  But he was alot like Elijah in that he came in his spirit and dressed and spoke with authority.  He was also a forerunner to Jesus, but another will come before the second coming of Christ which many believe will be the genuine Elijah.  You can see that in Revelation 11:3-7. 

Even tho Jesus came the first time for the Jews, he knew they would reject him.  So John wasn't the Elijah that will come for the second coming.  John was a type of Elijah but he wasn't Elijah.  Just like Jesus is a type of Moses, but isn't Moses. 

well you can pay for yours, but I know that Christ paid for mine...  I know I'm way too bankrupt to pay for my sins.  The coffers don't run that deep.  He's not talking about his own Lula. 

First off you SHOULD NEVER pack your bible.  It should be on the front seat with you on the trip..

It's Psalm 103:12 "As far as the east is from the west so far has he removed our transgressions from us." 

Also in Isaiah 43:25 he says "I, even I, am he that blots out your transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember your sins." 

Notice for whose sake? 

Why, does Jesus need to see where you're going? Can't he watch over you from inside the suitcase?

You asked me to show you where Moses was a prophet and I did.  Now I want to ask you...where are you getting that Paul was a prophet? 

Were any of the Apostles called Prophets? 

My comment had nothing to do with Jesus seeing where we are going.  Why would you think that? 

Partly a joke. What DID you mean?

ok...LOL. 

I meant that the Word of God should be as important as physical food is to our physical body.  We don't totally pack food away when we move until we can get to it later do we?  No, we need nourishment everyday to function properly.  It's the same with the WOD.   

That's why Jesus said "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." 

Spiritual food is actually more refreshing, satisfying and invigorating than physical food is for those who have tasted it.