lula posts:

kfc posts:

KFC,

St.Matt 24:13 most certainly is about salvation. The meaning of the term "end" here is not reserved just for the endtimes.

"He who endures to the end will be saved" here means enduring through difficulties, trials, etc. without losing faith until one's death.  Since verse 9 predicts many will be put to death for their faith..this certainly applied to the early Christians and to any age onward to the last days.

Basmas posts: 1

KFC POSTS:

Yes, Basmas, however KFC is forgetting that Scripture tells even the devils have faith; they believe that there is a God; that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is their Judge.  St.James again...says in 2:19, that "the devils also believe and tremble."

So that alone blows away her theology. She's wrong..it's not ONLY ABOUT BELIEF for according to KFC's interpretation of these passages in her article, the devils by believing are saved.

[quote]Basmas posts: 1



so are you saying all I need to do is belive? It doens't matter what my actions are?[/quote]

Yes, our salvation does matter what our actions are.  Our salvation depends on belief as the foundation and to believe in Christ infers doing all what Christ commanded to be done. "Doing" is an action word as in "doing our actions". If those actions are sins against God, even if we have faith, that is, even if we believe, and die in that state, then we will be judged and sent to Hell.  

A man who believes but goes so far as to commit murder just before he died would lose his salvation Jesus made possible for him personally. That person obviously didn't endure in the faith until the end, did he?

kfc posts #12

St.John 20:23 has Jesus saying "Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them". Why should Jesus delegate such a power to the Apostles and their successors (as per the book of Acts) if it were not that the "wages of sin is death",  the loss of salvation?  Romans 6:23

Let's look at your verse above and compare it to what Paul said in Romans 1:17 (Martin Luther's verse):

For here is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH"

He also said what I already wrote in this thread in 4:4-5

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.  However to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." 

Now, how do we reconcile the two?  We know salvation is a "gift" of God right?  We don't work for a gift.   Paul didn't say the just shall live by faith and works now did he?  He said here quite plainly that his faith is credited as righteousness....just like you find in Abraham.  Same thing.  James didn't either when you read it in context. 

Now what's the difference in James and Paul's writing?  At first glance it seems to contradict.  This is the whole reason Luther at first wanted to get rid of the book of James because it didn't fit with the whole of the other scriptures....or so he thought.  It's also the book the RC like you love because it seems as tho James is saying our works justify us before God....but that's not correct. Our works are evidence of who we belong to. 

Here's a breakdown to make it clearer what the two men are saying:

Paul:  Thru faith a man is justifed before God

James:  Thru works a man is justified before men

Paul:  Faith is the root of justification (Rom 5:1)

James:  Works are the fruit of justification

That's the diff.    You are not saved by works.  You are saved by faith.  But your faith is accompanied by works.   You've got your root and your fruit mixed up Lula. 

It's like this:  God saves us (grace thru faith) and then he puts us to work. 

If this wasn't so pathetic it would be funny. If two people whom have dedicated much of their lives to the study of “god's” instruction manual cannot agree on what it is telling them to do, what hope is there for the rest of us to decipher the riddle of what it takes to be “saved”?

Which is more likely? That the bible was written by men and intentionally left ambiguous so as to give the illusion of infallibility, or a stupid god that can't even leave clear instructions and would most likely fail a basic reading comprehension course inspired the bible?

I suppose that’s something to be considered, a retarded god that is. I mean he's omnipotent he just thinks it and it happens, he probably doesn't have a clue how he does it. In fact he's probably chasing some shiny object right now and has long forgotten all about creating us. An omnipotent consciousness would probably have a very short attention span you know.

no, no, no.  The devils don't have faith.  They believe there is a god...that's it.  That's not the same as faith.  Many people believe in god, but have no faith. 

You're giving out wrong information Lula........please keep this in mind...since you're in James go over and read 3:1

"My brothers be not many teachers knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation."

I worked this out a long time ago and take this very seriously.  Since teachers use their tongues (in this case fingers) to instruct others, they will be judged more strictly. 

Lula has not dedicated much of her life to the study of God's instruction manual.  I think she'll be the first to tell you.  I have.  Since I was 10 years old.  What you're seeing here is the diff from one who is strictly reading God's words to one who is listening to what the RCC is telling her God's word says. 

So the diff between me and Lula is the authority of the RCC. 

It's not ambiguous at all really.  The book is just fine.  It's the people who have the problem with the book because they are trying to make it say what they want it to say to fit their organized religion.  So they leave out certain parts and run towards other scripture that sounds better to their ears.  That's why Lula immediately went to another scripture and didn't respond initially to what I said in the main part of this blog.   That's a big indication right there. 

Christ spoke in parables for a reason.  He wants those who are really interested to search out the truths like treasure.  He said this  when questioned about why he spoke in parables:

"Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven but to them it is not given.  For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance but whosoever has not from him shall be taken away even that he has.  Therefore speak I to them in parables becaue they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive; For this people's heart is waxed gross and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart and should be converted and I should heal them."

kfc posts:

I never said I/we are saved just by works. So don't go there. What I've said all along is that salvation is by both faith and good works which is St. Paul and  St. Jame's teaching and there is no getting around it.

The entire book of St.James concerns what one must do to be saved. He concentrates on obedience to all that Christ commanded (His law of love) and judgment for those who disobey. St.James doesn't support your concept that one can know he is saved as long as he has faith alone. He also refutes your statement that works are the fruit of justification. Both he and St.Paul clearly teach that one must consciously add good works of love to his faith in order to be justfied.  

Works are inspired by faith and not the fruit of justification.

In fact, 4:17 has it that if one chooses not to do good works (in love of God and neighbor) when the opportunity arises, he has sinned. Catholic believe that praying for someone is a "good work".

KFC WRITES: 

Again, we are not saved by faith alone. It's very important to understand that St.Paul never uses the word "alone" as a qualifier or description of faith. For St.Paul, faith carries too much meaning and implicatons to be limited by  the word "alone".

Egads! This statement shows either your extreme bias, your cluelessness or the utter misunderstanding as to the biblical meaning of the term "works".

I've already said we are not saved just by works. All the "good works" in the world prompted by purely natural motives cannot save a man. That's why St.Paul said, If I should give all my goods to feed the poor, and have not charity (love), it profiteth me nothing."

Rather, it's good works inspired by faith in Christ and love for Christ (supernatural charity) that are necessary for gaining towards one's salvation. "Indeed the Son of man will come in glory ...and then He will render to every man according to his works." St.Matt. 16:27.

And that's exactly why St. James says "By works a man is justified, and not by faith alone." So , good works are necessary, for salvation for in v. 26, he finishes saying, "For even as a body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

kfc posts:

Not me, but Scripture itself has refuted your assertion that one can know with full assurance that he is saved by faith alone.

And speaking of the Good Book, 2 Tim. 3:16-17 fits nicely here..." All Scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work."

The explanation for speaking in parables reads like it came right out of the John Edwards psychic friends handbook. Basically the author is saying if what you see in this make sense to you then it was for you, if it doesn't then it was not for you. 

Let's see if this makes sense to you.  For knowledge to exist there must be information, if god is all knowing then he has knowledge of the supernatural and therefore the supernatural must contain information, so by its very definition the supernatural cannot exist.  Now a god may very well be able to create a universe that contains information and laws by his own design however he would have to have knowledge of how to do that and therefore that knowledge would contain information.  So all things are knowable including how a god could create existence since it's just information.

So to believe in a god you must believe that all this information and somehow any new information is not new at all and has always existed.  Where does information come from?  You say god has always had this information, the atheist says this information grew from the simplest expression of it.  Now this explanation still does not explain where that first byte if you will of information came from, however it is by far the simpler explanation. Everything that we know about the universe shows us that information grows and cannot be destroyed. Therefore your explanation of the beginning of the universe by the hand of a god starts from the end instead of the beginning.

Add to that the problem of consciousness before existence and you have a very complicated and implausible hypothesis KFC. 

What are you talking about....I did on my comment #8

kfc writes:

and again in my comment # 14

kfc writes:

and again in my comment #15

kfc writes:

kfc writes:

which goes directly with your response to Basmas who wrote:

and you responded:

kfc posts:

What you are essentially claiming is----so long as you have faith alone, you can sin with impunity and still get into heaven. It makes no difference how you live or end your life.

Where this "easy street" "too good to be true" philosophy comes from, only you know...but it's not from Christ nor from Scripture.

kfc writes:

Regarding the highlighted, particularly your use of the word "exchange" put together with your articulation that you can know with full assurance that you are saved by faith alone tells you don't properly understand the biblical sense of sin, grace, redemption/salvation or justification.

Scripture teaches that one's final salvation depends upon the state of the soul when that person dies. One who dies in the state of grace (no grevious sins on his soul) will go to heaven ....and the one who dies in a state of sin against God will go to Hell.

The truth is we are all redeemed by Christ's death on the Cross...but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided (namely saving or sanctifying grace) is contingent on our individual response.

Christ died on the Cross and provided abundantly for our salvation. He did His part, but that doesn't mean there is no process by which His grace is applied to us individuals. Both the Church and Scripture teach the exact same thing....since we weren't born 'saved", that it's necessary to hear and believe in Christ; to embrace all His New Covenant commands; to repent of our sins and be baptized...that is, to be born again or reconciled to God and made heirs to the kingdom of Heaven.

But at the same time, we, like Adam and Eve, who through sin, can become unreconciled with God, and like the progigal son need to come back and seek forgiveness and be reconciled again.

Scripture is clear for we find that Adam and Eve--- who received God's gift of grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today--most definitely did demerit it and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well. Rom. 11:17-24.

Regarding whether or not we can have an "absolute assurance of salvation, regardless of our actions, consider this warning that St. Paul gave, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who had fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."  Rom. 11:22; Heb. 10:26-29; 2St.Peter 2:20-21.

Well it wouldn't exactly score highly for clarity and being concise by most measures! The fact that there are so many different church demoninations out there which will have conflicting interpretations of the bible/it's implications attests to that, and as far as someone coming to it 'fresh', it can be very tough going.

Regarding your original post, am I right in thinking that you're saying you could believe in Jesus and that he will ensure your salvation, and if you carry on as before but with that belief (i.e. you don't necessarily do any good works/keep on doing bad ones) that you'll still go to heaven? I interpreted the case of the thief on the cross as being that he hadn't had the chance to do good works yet, rather than as evidence that you don't need to do good works even if you have such a chance.

Fraid you've lost me already!

To answer your question, yes, to an extent.  I'm sure there will be some change in this person's life even if it's just a little change.  But there are some "born again" believers who are not that much diff than the world and do carry on much like they did before.   Let me give you a very clear example....probably the strongest supporting eternal security scripture to be found in the entire Bible. 

"For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.  If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved yet so as through fire.  1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Paul is relating here what will happen at the judgment seat of Christ.  Every believer's life will be evaluated as to how he spent his time after being sealed with the salvation of God. Only his works are being judged because when he came to belief he passed from condemnation to life at the moment of salvation.

 There are two kinds of Christians here.  The first man in line represents those who have made real contributions to God's kingdom while they were here.  His works are described as "gold, silver and precious stones."  The quality is such these works make it thru the fire judgment of God.  This man is rewarded for his good stewardship.

The second man steps up and represents believers who have no time for the things of Christ; are saved, have accepted Christ as their Savior but not as their Lord.  They're not living for him, they're living for self still.  As he sees his deeds evaluated, he also witnesses the burning up of them. His works are described as "wood, hay and straw."  There is no real substance there, no eternal value.  When the smoke clears he is faced with the reality that his life really counted for nothing.  He comes to God with nothing.  Paul says this man suffers loss but the man himself will be saved!!! 

That's why you see such an array of Christians.  Some are sold out and some are ho-hum.  It all gets evaulated in the end.

Now, the thief on the cross had one not so small work.  Did you notice in the story that he spoke up, and witnessed to those staring up, about Christ?  He evangelized right there hanging upon that cross.  So I'm sure this thief, grateful for the eternal life just ffered to him, would have been out and about showing this appreciation if he could have.  That's how we are all supposed to be. 

Read what I just wrote to Aeortar above. 

Adam and Eve lost a reward and were punished, but they did not lose their place in the family of God.  Thanks for the example.    This helps my point not yours.  Where was their priest to confess to? 

It just shows, even tho we sin, as his children, we don't lose our place in the family, any more than our own kids don't. 

not really, you went right into Philippians and Matthew in #8 which had nothing to do with what I originally wrote.  You left what I wrote, not answering it and ran to get scripture that fit your theology....it just confuses things. 

Please, Lula limit your quoting.  It really does make things more complicated.  I'm referring here to your #25.  I asked you to comment on what I wrote (#12) after your comment in #8.  What you said in #14,#15 etc....has no bearing on what I asked of you in #12.    By saying so, you're adding confusion to the mix. 

We don't have full knowledge, only revealed knowledge.  So we can only go on what we do know.  God tells us thru Paul that right now we see thru a glass darkly.  Then it will all become clear.

no I think it means, if you care enough you will search it out.  In other words, where your heart is so there you'll find your treasure.