I like how you used "however" Lula. You just nullified your first sentence by doing so. Besides...co-redeemer status is co-redeemer status. You might want to define the word "co."

Besides.....I cut and pasted (a long time ago) for you right from the Vatican See website a paragragh that left nothing to the imagination when it comes to the CC's worship of Mary. I'd have to go back and dig that up....but since I've already done that and you bypassed it to come back with this yet once again....there's no need for me is there?

You are NOT going to convince me of Mary worship. I'm not going there. She was blessed AMONG women...yes. She was blessed to be chosen for this job. Yes. She sorrowed over the death of her son, as all mothers sorrow after the death of their sons...yes. But that's it Lula. That's as far as I can go using scripture as my guide.

Here's a reality check for you Lula using scripture. I'd like you to explain this one away:

"As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts at which you nursed!" But he said, "BLESSED RATHER are those who HEAR the word of God and KEEP it!" Luke 11:27

Here's the beginning of Mary worship and Jesus' response. He discouraged it. Nipped it in the bud.

This absoulutely contradicts CC teaching. You're asking us to do what Jesus did not encourage us to do. In fact, he did quite the opposite and it was his own mother.

huh?

Who says he was dead? Besides he wasn't praying for a dead man....

"The Lord give mercy TO THE HOUSE OF Onesiphorous.........."

where in the heck are you getting from this...Paul is praying FOR a dead man?

Catholic teaching absolutely does not contradict St.Luke 11:27 or vice versa...absolutely does not.

You have a strange definition of worship if you think the woman in saying this is worshipping the Blessed Mother. She was praising His Mother, not worshipping her. This woman was praising the Blessed Virgin's attitude and her obedience to the word of God. Remember the Blessed Mother said, "let it be to me according to your word"? 1:38. Now go back and read what Christ said to the woman. He too is praising His mother for she heard the word of God and kept it.

Now, with Christ there sometimes is an even deeper meaning. In the course of Christ's teaching, the BLessed Mother received His words extolling a spiritual Kingdom beyond the concerns and ties of flesh and blood. He declared blessed those who heard AND KEPT the word of God St.Mark 3:35; Luke 11:27-28, which is exactly describes His Mother who was very humble about it 2:19.

So,by replying in this way, CHrist is not discouraging or nipping in the bud as you say, the warm praise this woman renders His Mother. No not at all. He accepts it and goes further, explaining that His Mother is blessed particularly becasue she has been faithful in putting the word of God into practice. Imagine that, KFC? Christ is telling the woman His mother was a hearer of the word and a doer of the word.

Catholics look to the BVMary above all as a model and guide. By her 'yes' to the will of the Father at the Annunciation, her life became a testimony to the wonderful things that can happen when the human person cooperates with the divine plan. In agreeing to be the human vessel which brought forth the Messias into the world, she played an essential part in Christ's salvific mission. She manifested Christian humility and obedience when she responded to God's will, "I am the servant of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word."

Just as she brought Christ's physical body into the world, now she has a role on behalf of His Mystical Body, the Church. The Blessed Mother did not ask for her role nor did the Church give it to her, it was nothing less than her DIvine SOn's wish for her and for His Church. St.John 19:26.

As for a reality check...why don't Protestants hear Christ's words in St.John 6:51 "the bread is My flesh" instead of being like some of the Jews who found his saying "too hard" and left Him. V 60?

As for a reality check...why don't Protestants hear Christ's words in St.John 6:51 "the bread is My flesh" instead of being like some of the Jews who found his saying "too hard" and left Him. V 60?


Again, changing the subject. That says alot. What does this have to do with what I wrote in Luke? (Read nothing).

It's not as you are saying. He said BLESSED RATHER.....you are pulling out of scripture what is NOT there to defend your CC teaching. Why can't you just admit, what this scripture is clearly teaching?

Your bias is very clear. It's not about truth Lula. It's about defending the CC at any cost.

And that's ok. If that's what you wish to do. But don't twist scripture to do so.

It's like talking to the Clintons...

God says, have no dealings with the dead, do not communicate.

I agree.

You agree.

But then you quibble about what communicating means, or what dead means.

It's pointless.

It's not with what you wrote about St.Luke..it's what you opened the discussion with:



What is good for the goose is good for the gander.   

TOVA7 posts:

I'm saying these Scripture passages support my position, in other words, asking for the Saints' intercession, and praying for the souls in Purgatory is biblical. Are the departed souls in Heaven dead....no and the Scriptures tell us so.

Instead of saying it's pointless, why don't you refute them?

Scripture provides cases of departed souls' being allowed by God or even sent by God to encounter the living. See St.Matt. 17:1-9. After our Lord's Resurrection, a number of departed saints returned to Jerusalem and appeared to many See St.Matt 27:52-53.

Please, asking for the Saint's intercession is not an attempt to commune or conjure up the dead. It simply acknowledges that those spiritual souls who are in Heaven, perfected by Christ, are able and willing to help us by God's grace, after all, He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Catholics don't pray to the dead, we pray for the souls in Pugatory, like the Jewish General Machabees did that they might be freed from venial sin. "turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be blotted out." 2Mach.12:39-40. I mentioned that KFC should do a study on this for it explains that the Jews pray for the dead. It's for the same reason they and we pray for the living. It's an act of fraternal charity (Love). They were confident that this spiritual work would benefit those who had died, just as it would benefit someone who is still living.

LULA POSTS:

What do you mean Huh? What's your interpretation of 2Tim.1:16-18? I've told you mine.

Here is what St.Paul writes:

"May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he searched for me eagerly and found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from his Lord on that Day! You know well the services he rendered in Ephesus."

Well you told me Paul is praying for a dead man and I asked you where you're getting that from that scripture. You haven't answered my question of "where are you getting this from?" Where does it say he died?

My interpretation? Look at the context.

Paul is reminding Timothy to be careful in choosing one's fellow workers. In v15-18 we see a contrast of associates who were ashamed of the gospel with those who were not.

The first group he mentions included all who are in Asia and turned away from him. They were ashamed of Paul and the gospel he preached especially when Paul was imprisoned for the faith. To be rejected by the world is not pleasant but to be deserted by co-laborers in the faith is very painful and can be especially heartbreaking.

So he names the deserters Phygelus and Hermogenes and commends a second group who stand in contrast to the first group. He prays for the house of Onesiphorus (are alive) who were known to Timothy as were the others. You can see that Paul asks Timothy to greet them (4:19) so the family lived near Timothy. They were certainly not dead.

In deep gratitude Paul prays that the Lord would grant to him (Oneisphorus) to find mercy from the Lord on that day. This day is the day of believers judgment for works he mentioned in v12 and refers to again in 4:8. Oneisphorus's devotion to Paul was proven by his courage and faithfulness by the services he rendered at Ephesus.

We can not conclude from these verses if Oneisphorus is dead or alive. So saying Paul is praying to or for a dead man is a big stretch.

not really cuz we were discussing the worship of Mary and I brought you the very first instance of Mary worship in scripture. I didn't change any subject matter.

So what do you do? You go to John 6 and want to speak about the Eucharist?

What the heck?

KFC,

I was teasing you about your saying that you were going to give me a reality check using Scripture.





I figured you need a reality check of your own and referred to St.John 6.

Yes, Onesiphorus is dead. We can conclude that from v. 18. St.Paul here is praying for him and remembers him to Onesiphous' family (household).

Onesiphous loyalty is contrasted with that of the Christians who had been unfaithful in Asia. After he had arrived in Rome, he wasn't afraid or ashamed of St.Paul and visited him regularly which must have involved inconvenience and risk given the conditions of St. Paul's second imprisonment.

St. Paul is touched to the depths of his heart at the thought of the true love Onesiphorus had shown him. In his gratitude, he prays that he and his whole family will experience "the Lord's mercy." The form is which this is expressed in v. 18, suggests that his faithful friend was dead at the time the letter was written 4:19.

May CHrist, "the Lord grant that he will find mercy from his Lord" that is God, the Father the supreme Judge, "on that Day". With a play on words, He 'found' him in Rome, now may he "find" mercy, St.Paul prays that Onesiphorus will find a merciful Judge in eternity who will reward him for all his loyalty. WIth these few words which could be like the inscription on a tombstone, St.Paul raises a wonderful monument of gratitude to his dead friend.

Onesiphorus had also merited well of the Chruch at Ephesus. No one was in a better position to realize this than Timothy who now headed the community as St.Paul's successor. That's why St.Paul needed to say nothing more. Through his faithfulness, Onesiphorus left behind him in the Chruch at Ephesus the memory of a strong Christian personality. Even in the earliest days of the Chruch, we see light and shade. In this passage we have an example of the unselfishness of one Christian in the service of the community and his unswerving loyalty to St.Paul who was chained and held prisoner like a criminal. On the other hand, we see the faithflessness of others towards him in his hour of need when he was arrested. As lone as it is in its pilgrim state here on this earth, there will always be light and shade in Christ's Church, becasue it is made up of weak human beings. However, faith is capable of bearing even the most bitter disappointments.

Really? You're getting that from this verse? So it says here he died?



So what you're saying is you can't pray for mercy for someone who is alive and faithful and encouraging to you? You have to wait until they're dead to pray for them?

Notice that Paul prays that God grants mercy to the household of Onesiphous as well. They're not dead. So who's to say Onesiphous is as well?

Like I said we can't make a clear conclusion with this one verse.

Lula where do you get this from this set of scriptures?

"39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain." WWW Link

Lula posts:



lula posts:



AD POSTS:

Sorry about that. I should have written 2Machabees 12:39-46.

V. 46 is "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins."

The Christian duty to pray for the souls of the dead is inculcated in the Old Testament, and it is again taught in the New Testament. In the NT, St.Paul tells us that Christians are members of Christ, and members, therefore, of one another, so that if one members suffers anything, all members suffer with it. St.James tells us to pray for one another, advice certainly not limited to this life only.