Unfortunately, Mary had the sin of Adam passed on to her, as she was born of man and woman. Christ avoided it only because he did not have a man to pass it on to him... the sin of Adam is passed down from the father..

I apologize for the delay.

There is quite a bit to this section of scripture (and I was out of town this weekend).

I didn't have the time to dig through ALL the Prophets and Law to find the prophesy of John. But I did find references in Isaiah and Malachi.

It seems to me that John is the preparation to the Messiah. He was to teach the restoration of the heart of the scriptures which came through Jesus.

That's my short summary start.

wow that is short...ok.

I look at John as really part of the OT really.   It's like he walked off the pages of the OT right into the new continuing the message of the OT and annouce Jesus as the Messiah that was spoken of to those who would hear. 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree.

I saw two parts to the prophecy being mentioned which I can see as causing some confusion with Jesus. One is the restoration of the heart of faith (in the ceremonial practices [Malachi]) and the coming of judgment (which I recognize as the second coming).

John was lucky. He was the prophet who actually got to meet Jesus. When people started going to Jesus instead of him, he basically told his disciples that he was rejoicing for it. He must increase, I must decrease. That's what we should do in our own lives.

For sure!

As early as when he was a babe in the womb! As the pregnant Blessed Mother Mary appoached, he (John) leaped in his mother Elizabeth's womb...

St.Luke 2:42-44

What follows St. Matt 11:12-14 is 17:12, "But I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not know him, but did to him what they desired. ANd likewise the Son of man is about to suffer from them."

Since Malachais 4:5-6 says Elijah must come before the Messias , the Scripture cannot be contradicted. John the Baptist says he is not Elijah, St.John 1:19-21, Jesus says He is StMatt. 11:10-14. The solution is given in St.Luke 1:17; 7:27, which says St. John came in "the spirit and power of Elijah". St.John's ministry of turning hearts to God was considerable, especially in light of the abject unbelief in Israel in contrast to the crowds that came to be baptized by St.John in reparation for their sins. St.Matt.3:5-6; 14:5; 16:14; St.Luke 3:3-14; 7:33; 19:9; Acts 19:3.

What follows St. Matt 11:12-14 is 17:12, "But I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not know him, but did to him what they desired. ANd likewise the Son of man is about to suffer from them."

Since Malachais 4:5-6 says Elijah must come before the Messias , the Scripture cannot be contradicted. John the Baptist says he is not Elijah, St.John 1:19-21, Jesus says He is StMatt. 11:10-14. The solution is given in St.Luke 1:17; 7:27, which says St. John came in "the spirit and power of Elijah". St.John's ministry of turning hearts to God was considerable, especially in light of the abject unbelief in Israel in contrast to the crowds that came to be baptized by St.John in reparation for their sins. St.Matt.3:5-6; 14:5; 16:14; St.Luke 3:3-14; 7:33; 19:9; Acts 19:3.

The simple way to say this ......Jesus is saying that if the Jews had received Him they would also have understood that John fulfilled Malachi's prediction of the coming of Elijah before the Day of the Lord. They did not. Look at 17:11-12 also.

TOva7 Posts:

Tova7,
Did you know that the Blessed Virgin Mary prophesied that "all ages to come shall call me blessed" St.Luke 1:48? Catholics consider it a privilege to fulfill that prophecy.

TOVA7 posts: 137

Most every Catholic prays to the Blessed Virgin Mary. The prayer is the Ave Maria also called the "Hail Mary". The words are simple:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

What could you find so objectionable in a prayer whose roots are so biblical? The first half is a direct quote from St.Luke 1:28, 42 while the second half affirms the divinity of Christ, the fallen state of mankind, human mortality, and the power of intecessary prayer.




The teaching of the Church is clear that Christ is the sole mediator between God and mankind. No other person on earth and in Heaven can take His place. The subordinate form of mediation (asking intercession) is biblical. Catholics seek the Blessed Virgin Mary's and the other Saints in Heaven intercession just as they seek the intercession of all good Christians, living and dead, for all are alive in Christ. 1Cor.15:22. This Christian intercession for one another is as old as the Chruch. If we, still in sin, can pray effectively for one another, why not the Saints in glory?

To answer the critical question then we Catholics do not worship the Blessed Virgin Mary or the other Saints. We give them special honor becasue of their lives of faithful witness
and we seek their intercession before the Lord as all believers in Heaven and on earth unite their prayers to the perfect prayer of Christ.

Lula.

She is considered co-redeemer. That's worship. You can deny this all you want but I have seen co-redeemer attached to her name numerous times in Catholic literature as well as Catholic bibles as old as the 60's. That's worship and putting her on equal status....a created being with God....as co-redeemer?



What does Tova find objectionable? Probably the same as I do. The focus. Here it's on Mary, not God.

It's the and dead part I have issues with Lula. We are not to commune with the dead.

Who do you think God meant when he said the dead? He meant those who have died before us. He doesn't command us to only talk with "good Christians" who are dead...He commands the exact opposite. We are to have no dealings with the dead.

Every time you ask a dead person to do anything, or attempt to communicate, you are participating in what is despicable to God, something He mentions specifically as being despicable, you are in fact the Witch of Endor.

Just because no spirit arises and answers you doesn't make you're less guilty of communing with the dead, it just makes you bad at it.

I don't see how you can rationalize praying to dead people. Ever.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.


KFC POSTS #176

Well, KFC you'll have to blame God for focusing this prayer on the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The first two sentences are taken directly from Scripture, St. Luke, who was inspired by God to write what he wrote. The first sentence, the angel Gabriel's saluation to the BVMary. The 2nd sentence was by St. Elizabeth who was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Remember St.John the Baptist leaped in her womb at this moment? So here you can plainly see that God Himself focused on the Blessed Virgin Mary when He chose her to be the Mother of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.



"Holy Mary"...this is certainly true as Scripture tells us she was "full of grace" and thus holy.

"Mother of God"...yes, true again. She was mother of Christ and He is God.

"pray for us sinners"...here we ask for her intercession for us sinners...

"Now"....we ask pray for us to God now in this short life..now that we are being attacked 24/7 by the snares of the devil, the flesh and the world.

"and at the hour of our death."...pray for us at our turning point...when our lot for ever and ever will be Heaven or Hell.

"Amen."...So be it.



Here is a suggestion:

Earnestly pray in Jesus our Good Shepherd's name, that in His incomprehensible Mercy, He grant the grace of a much deeper sympathy of opening your mind towards His Blessed Mother.

When He speaks, don't harden your heart. Be open and obey.

KFC POSTS:

The Church has always taught and I believe with the Church that Christ is the only Redeemer and the one principal Mediator to which we owe all. Period.

However, there are very many second cooperators in His work. The BVMary's work was to be our co-redemptress, that is to cooperate in CHrist's redemptive work. St.Paul teaches this. If all Christians are members of Christ, and are called upon, as St.Paul says, to fill up the what is wanting to the suffering of Christ, then you can be sure that as Mary, His Mother, was more closely associated with Christ than we are, so she is more closely associated with His redemptive work. As members of His Mystical Body we each are to be in Christ, with Him and through Him. We are to take up our cross in the sufferings of Christ. The Blessed Virgin Mary cooperated in the redemptive work in a way quite special to herself....always and everywhere infinitely subordinate to Christ. By a special title, therefore, we call her Co-redemptress.

As our first mother Eve brought us forth to misery and death, our second mother, Mary, in bringing forth our Savior brought us forth to happiness and salvation. The BVMary's consent was asked by God when the time for the Incarnation was at hand. She freely consented to the full work of Christ from the cave in Bethlehem to the Cross of Calvary. She provided the very Precious Blood that was shed for us. In union with Christ, she had her own passion, and Simeon rightly predicted to her, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,"Thy own soul a sword will pierce." With, in and through the work of Christ, her sufferings also contributed secondarily towards our redemption.

To all of us, Christ said, in the person of St.John, "Behold thy mother." We Catholics therefore regard the Blessed Mother of Christ our spiritual Mother, regarding her the love and devotion of children.

In bringing forth Christ, she brought us forth to life, she is the model of every virtue and should be to every Christian woman the glory of womanhood. All this tells us what she is for...She is our spiritual mother in Heaven and she fulfills the duties of a Mother, winning for us by her intercession that grace of Christ which is life to our souls and which, please God, will mean eternal life in the end.

Lula posts:

In the above I should have written....just as they seek the intercession FOR all good Christians, living and dead, for all are alive in Christ.

Tova7 posts:

I absolutely agree we are not to commune with the dead...to do so is diabolical.

Scripture provides cases of departed souls' being allowed by God or even sent by God to encounter the living. See St.Matt. 17:1-9. After our Lord's Resurrection, a number of departed saints returned to Jerusalem and appeared to many" See St.Matt 27:52-53.

Please, asking for the Saint's intercession is not an attempt to commune or conjure up the dead. It simply acknowledges that those spiritual souls who are in Heaven, perfected by Christ, are able and willing to help us by God's grace, after all, He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Catholics don't pray to the dead, we pray for the souls in Pugatory, like the Jewish General Machabees did that they might be freed from venial sin. "turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be blotted out." 2Mach.12:39-40. I mentioned that KFC should do a study on this for it explains that the Jews pray for the dead. It's for the same reason they and we pray for the living. It's an act of fraternal charity (Love). They were confident that this spiritual work would benefit those who had died, just as it would benefit someone who is still living.

The first Christians who were Jews maintained this "excellent and noble" practice. St.Paul prayed for a friend Onesiphorus who was deceased. 2Tim. 1:16-18.

So, again, understand that we are not praying to the dead, but for the dead. It's a faulty assumption that those who are in Heaven don't recognize our prayers or for those in Hell are useless.

As we know from Apoc. 21:27 that nothing unclean can enter Heaven. Some of those souls who go to Heaven still need purification before they're ready to be with God forever and ever. Charity demands that we should pray for the dead and humility demands that we should ask others to pray for us when we die.