Where Are We Going?
Published on February 5, 2008 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
So from a creationist's standpoint why did God create man? Why are we here? Some think because God was lonely but that's not true. Some think because he wanted robots to do his bidding. That's not true either because we just have to look at each other to see that is far from the truth.

So why did God create man? Was it for our own purpose? His purpose?

I believe man was created to demonstrate the glory of God and to fellowship with his creator. Man was given both responsibilities and restrictions right from the beginning. One of these responsibilities was to assume headship over all nature and eventually over the entire universe. When he was put into the garden, how many know it literally meant "park of a King?" Man had it made until he fell and rebelled against his creator.

Yes, for some it's a myth, for others it's true that Satan approached Eve, first slyly helping her to doubt God's word and then brazenly denying it. This is still going on today. We are still hearing...."is it really true?" "Do you really believe this?" Two things we see with Eve here in the garden. She committed two fatal mistakes. She adds to God's word and then she takes from God's word after listening to this devil. Nothing new under the sun here either. Still happening.

So after the sin was committed God, the judge set up his court right there in the Garden and the trial began. He gave out a threefold sentence on the serpent, upon Satan and upon Adam and Eve. Our first parents would suffer shame, fear, discord, death, suffering, weariness of labor, and separation from God.

Like anything else there are a few positions explaining this story. The first is the Liberal position claiming the whole story is a myth, a silly Hebrew legend. Then there is the Pelagian position. Pelagius was a fifth century British monk who taught that Adam's sin only affected himself. He said the only effect of Adam's sin had on the world was that of a bad example. This doctrine was condemned by the council of Carthage in 418 AD.

Then there is the Arminian position. Arminius (1560-1609) was a professor who lived and taught in Holland. He said that while Adam's sin definitely weakened the will of his posterity to remain sinless it did not destroy the possibility.

Last but certainly not least is the Augustian position which most Christians would adhear to. Augustine was one of the greatest of the early church fathers. He taught that because of the unity of the human race in Adam, man's sin is imputed to his posterity. Thus, corrupted nature begets corrupted nature. This is the only position amply supported by scripture.

Some get all upset about every little sin or deed done against God but Paul especially often distinguishes between "sin" and "sins." Sin is the root of man's problems and is his corrupted nature which he received from Adam. Sins, on the other hand are the fruit of man's problems and a reference to those actions resulting from his corrupted nature. So in other words we inherited Adam's sin nature and by doing so we commit individual sins that go against God.

So we are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are born sinners. There is a distinction here. The real disease is not the outward sins committed but can be found in the bloodstream (sin nature).

So now what? What about man's destiny? Where does man go from here? Again there are different views out there. We have the view of Nirvana, which I believe is offered to a confused world today as an option. This is an oriental Hindu philosophy which teaches that at death a man ceases all personal existence and is absorbed by some great life-giving principle in the universe. Then there is restorationism which is the belief that in a future life all men will be given a second chance to make that choice for God they did not make during this life. This is hugely refuted by scripture.

Then there is materialism and what we consider the atheistic view. Man forever ceases to be and quietly rots into nothingness. This philosophy has been described on an ancient tombstone which read, "I was not, I became, I am not, I care not." Again this is refuted clearly by scripture.

There is also a belief called annihilationism which is somewhat common in cults and is the belief that all the ungodly will someday literally be "uncreated." or annihilated by God. Charles Taze Russell in the 1800's believed in this and the story is told that as a boy he had a great fear of hell.

There is also the belief in soul sleep which is the belief that once you die, your soul sleeps until the resurrection which is also refuted by scripture. Then we have purgatory and limbo. Purgatory is the belief that those who die at peace with the church but not perfect must undergo penal and purifying sufferings. Any dying in mortal sin is condemned to Hell so only those who die in venial sin are allowed purgatory. Then the belief of limbo, which I've heard recenlty has been done away with but is the belief among Catholics that unbaptized children and mentally incompetent upon death proceed to a permanent place of happiness but not heaven.

Next we have reincarnation. Most are very familiar with this belief in the rebirth of the soul which has been fundamental to most religions and philosophies of India. As one sows in the present life he will reap in the next. Thus a man's state of life is seen not as something meaningless but as the working out for good or ill. This theory, like the previous, is totally without scriptural support.

Last but not least we have the cross or Chrisitanity's answer for the destiny of man. In the OT, before the cross, we read of Sheol which is a holding place for all the dead. In the NT it was called Hades translated Hell but in all reality was also a holding place. Originally there were two sections of Hades, one side held the saved dead and the other for the lost dead. The saved section is sometimes called "Paradise." and sometimes referred to "Abraham's bosom." If you remember Christ said to the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in Paradise."

After Christ made full payment for the sin on Calvary one side of Hades was totally emptied never to be full again. He set the captives free it says in scripture but the side with the unsaved dead wait for the future judgment. The state of the unsaved dead remained and reamins unchanged after the cross.

Stephen just beofre he died:

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And they stoned Stephen calling upon God and saying, Lord Jesus receive my spirit. And he kneeled down and cried with a oud voice, Lord lay not this sin to their charge. And when he said this, he fell asleep." Acts 7


Comments
on Feb 05, 2008

These are some mighty good articles you have here KFC, which I have thoroughly enjoyed reading. I do however see things from a slightly different perspective-

"Man had it made until he fell and rebelled against his creator."

Did we really fall? Or perhaps that first "sin" was not a sin at all but our first step in evolution and growth. Choosing to eat that apple would have been the first true choice man had made- as before that he was free to roam and act as he wished in every other capacity with no consequences whatsoever. The only act that would have consequences would be eating that apple. And so, that was the only choice before him. And since he had never really made a choice with consequences before, of course he was going to do it, even out of sheer curiosity. And of course curiosity is part of the quest for knowledge and leads us to grow and become better people...albeit fraught with tragedies and surprise along the way.

Once Adam and Eve tasted that apple they suddenly gained the knowledge of right and wrong and it kick-started the true birth of the human race. To say that their sin was passed on to all their children I disagree with. The curiosity of man to test his boundaries and to discover the unkown is indeed part of our nature as humans, and if that is what is called the "the great sin" then so be it. If it is the case that our nature (or sin as some would call it) will be our undoing as a species, then the only thing we can do is to try and evolve past that nature. This is possible, it has hapenned before and will happen again but it is not easy and the road is long and difficult (funny, there's a good book I know that says something to that effect)

I've enjoyed reading your articles on these subjects and to go on further I may risk offending you at this point, which I don't want. I would however like to leave in closing by asking your opinion of what it means to be saved? As one's beliefs on saved vs unsaved really does tint the glass we see the world through quite heavily!

 

on Feb 05, 2008
One thing about the "Tree of Knowledge" that is always passed over, is that it is not called the "Tree of Knowledge", it is called the "Tree of Knowledge of Goo and Evil".

Which to me means, Knowledge of right from wrong.

So if we had no knowledge of right/wrong, what exactly was wrong with eating the apple?

Not that any of this really matters, but God was there when the snake talked to Eve, he knew exactly what was happening.. WHY WHY WHY did he get pissed?

There are so many examples of a nutty god in the bible, how can anyone worship such flawed imaginary friend?
on Feb 05, 2008
These are some mighty good articles you have here KFC, which I have thoroughly enjoyed reading. I do however see things from a slightly different perspective-


Thanks and I welcome a different perspective. I may or may not agree but please feel free to voice it. Iron sharpens iron.

Did we really fall?


Well I think it's called a fall because man fell from God's grace. He also fell from being the one in charge, holding the title deed to the earth. When he slipped Satan was there to grab this title from him making himself the god of this world.

Or perhaps that first "sin" was not a sin at all but our first step in evolution and growth


I could see it being both. I agree with you in that we are someday going to look back and never want to go back to this place again and then we will know what Adam didn't. We will understand what happens when we let sin into our world. There will be major growth there for sure.

To say that their sin was passed on to all their children I disagree with.


Based on what? To do so would mean you would disagree with the scriptures as well as many theologians thru the centuries. Paul said this to the Romans:

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." 5:12

Notice the past tense. When Adam sinned, we all did. Adam acted as our Federal Head. We are all connected to Adam. He represented us and his nature was passed down thru the generations.

Do you believe that we can be sinless on our own?

I've enjoyed reading your articles on these subjects and to go on further I may risk offending you at this point, which I don't want


I don't think you'll offend me if you wish to go further. It's ok to disagree. I'm just conveying what the scriptures say.

So if we had no knowledge of right/wrong, what exactly was wrong with eating the apple?


It wasn't really about the fruit (never was about an apple) it was about obedience. When they chose not to be obedient, they rebelled against God. That's all sin is, a rebellion against God. God gave them responsibilities, freedoms and this one restriction. They knew him personally, walked and talked with him even. When they sinned, they were separated from God. That's what sin does. It separates us from God. They chose to believe a lie instead of the God who created them.

Kind of reminds me of our kids. Sometimes they will believe a friend or someone else instead of their parents. Nothing new under the sun is there?

There are so many examples of a nutty god in the bible, how can anyone worship such flawed imaginary friend?


We don't. I think it's because you don't see the big picture. You are dwelling on just a bit of information, not getting the whole story. When you really start digging into this you see there are no flaws. It all fits together like a glove and it makes sense to boot.



on Feb 06, 2008

KFC: I believe man was created to demonstrate the glory of God and to fellowship with his creator.

Dear KFC, All, I was struck by this statement and suggest it points to a very human tendency to understand the Infinite in ways that make sense to us. Yet, God cannot make sense to us. If the point of view KFC is putting forward is true, I shudder to be inside God's mind, as it would be terribly ego-maniacal. Let's face it, an Infinite God needs nothing. Need is a human attribute. An Infinite God needs no glory, everything is His, of Him, in Him, through Him.

We are still hearing...."is it really true?" "Do you really believe this?" Two things we see with Eve here in the garden. She committed two fatal mistakes. She adds to God's word and then she takes from God's word after listening to this devil. Nothing new under the sun here either. Still happening.


Frankly, I don't care a wit what you believe, I do, however care how you behave.

I really wish you would take a stab, KFC, at writing something about living a good life today in this very real world we live in. It seems you are stuck in text. One of my aunts is born again, gooness, and she cannot seem to taklk without studdering "Amen" or "Praise Jesus" everywhere. It as though she dribbles from her lips.

I don't know, jut a thought.

See ya!





on Feb 06, 2008
All, I was struck by this statement and suggest it points to a very human tendency to understand the Infinite in ways that make sense to us


yes, isn't that cool? I mean God coming down to our level?

Yet, God cannot make sense to us


well sometimes he doesn't make sense to us because our ways are not His ways and vise versa. Other times what he has revealed to us makes perfect sense. Fits together perfectly. This is obvious just by reading my blog on any given religion topic. For one thing, we can't always know the "whys" to everything.

Let's face it, an Infinite God needs nothing.


This is true, but how else can God use his attributes of Love, Mercy, Judgment, Grace, etc if he has nobody to lavish then on? God desires to have a relationship with his creation, and as a result we get to be a part of God's whole plan. He involves us.

Frankly, I don't care a wit what you believe, I do, however care how you behave.


so are you saying the two are not connected? Think about what Hitler, Stalin, Hussein believed....and then think about how they behaved. It's the same with all of us. Our thinking precedes our living. The two are connected. It all starts with a thought.

I really wish you would take a stab, KFC, at writing something about living a good life today in this very real world we live in.


I do. I write about all sorts of stuff. The funny thing Sodaiho.....you don't show up on those blogs now do you? I just finished writing about meeting new people and friendships. Did I see you there? So is this a case of really wanting me to, or really wanting me to shut up about the God I believe in?

It seems you are stuck in text


Again, I bet if you took what I write and look at the many subjects I cover and compare to what you write, you'd see that I'm all over the forums....on a wide variety of subjects. Are you? But, admittedly I do enjoy the text and it is probably my favorite thing to write about. So you're not too far off. Besides, if you read me with any frequency you'd see I'm studying many of these subjects right now . Of all people, I'd think you would understand this Sodaiho.

One of my aunts is born again, gooness, and she cannot seem to taklk without studdering "Amen" or "Praise Jesus" everywhere. It as though she dribbles from her lips.


and I realized years ago, by noticing.....that jevery family has one "born again" in it. Most usually they are either considered the "black sheep" of the family or just plain nuts or dubbed the "religious" one. Am I right?

God is a God of many chances. He puts people into our lives to show us the way. I think this is all done on purpose. Someday you will stand in front of your maker (if scripture is correct) and God will say......"I gave you your Aunt so you have no excuse."

I like your Aunt. She's got guts.

I don't know, jut a thought.


Thanks Sodaiho. I appreciate it.

AMEN! PRAISE JESUS!

on Feb 07, 2008
well sometimes he doesn't make sense to us because our ways are not His ways and vise versa. Other times what he has revealed to us makes perfect sense. Fits together perfectly. This is obvious just by reading my blog on any given religion topic. For one thing, we can't always know the "whys" to everything.


Good Morning KFC,

I don't think its a matter of "ways" but essential nature. We cannot know God's nature. The Infinite, the Absolute, everywhere at all times, renders anything we might think we know, based on ourselves (the only reference point for existence we have, meaningless.

We have a lonely Christian who attends our weekly Breakfast Club at Temple Beth El. Each week he comes in carrying his worn and well thumbed Holy Bible. He is a wonderful man whom we have accepted warmly into our group. Garland has the ability to listen deeply, he refuses to judge others on the basis of faith, gender, race, etc,. We have invited him on several occasions to present in front of our group. A brave man, he accepts humbly. Our group is comprised of retired doctors, lawyers, accountants, scientists and business people. Not an easy crowd.

Anyway, yesterday he lead the discussion and talked about the Messiah v. the Messianic Age v. the current condition of humanity. He used Jeremiah and Joel as his prooftexts. Interesting. What he did, is what you and other Text-based "believers" do, try to show how ancient text "fits" a current application. This is not unlike Talmudic thinking, by the way. The effort is to somehow show the old text is pointing to an event, say the birth of Jesus or his claim to be the messiah, and show a perfect fit.

Now this is rather like what astrologers do. They see a star/planet alignment, claim it means "X" (the text) and then go about showing how your behavior or the events in your life "match" it.

Or like the folks who think they see a man's face on Mars or the moon. Its called pattern recognition and we humans can't help it. Its part of our neuro-psych system.

Yet none of this makes it any more true, even a perfect fit, is just a pattern and remains a pattern. Every "messiah" has used text and contemporaneous events to "prove" his claim. Yet, when we look out the window, there is still suffering.

This is true, but how else can God use his attributes of Love, Mercy, Judgment, Grace, etc if he has nobody to lavish then on? God desires to have a relationship with his creation, and as a result we get to be a part of God's whole plan. He involves us.


These are not his attributes, they are only what we call his attributes. Again, KFC, you are using a human base of understanding and trying to find a fit with a non-human Absolute. God desires? Anthropomorphic projection, wishful thinking, based on anthropomorphic texts. Step away from the text and go to your experience without your self. Practice finding that still small voice and listen without assigning a text-based meaning to it. You must experience the Infinite to know anything of it. And when you experience the Infinite you will know it is what both Jews and Buddhists call "empty".

A text is only a finger pointing to the moon.

so are you saying the two are not connected? Think about what Hitler, Stalin, Hussein believed....and then think about how they behaved. It's the same with all of us. Our thinking precedes our living. The two are connected. It all starts with a thought.


Of course they are connected, but not necessarily one-to-one. I think about these men, but I also think about Jim Bakker and his ilk as well, believing "on Christ" tears a flowing, and buying air conditioned dog houses from donations from people on welfare.

Belief is nothing without appropriate behavior. Again, show me the behavior and it will show me the person and his actual beliefs. Belief will not save you from God's eye. It resides everywhere.

I do. I write about all sorts of stuff. The funny thing Sodaiho.....you don't show up on those blogs now do you? I just finished writing about meeting new people and friendships. Did I see you there? So is this a case of really wanting me to, or really wanting me to shut up about the God I believe in?


Hardly. I do read some of your other work. I even commented on our shared interest in running. But you miss my point. I am interested in application. I want to see you talk about your life as a Cristian, somehow showing your faith's principles operationalized or actualized.

Again, I bet if you took what I write and look at the many subjects I cover and compare to what you write, you'd see that I'm all over the forums....on a wide variety of subjects. Are you? But, admittedly I do enjoy the text and it is probably my favorite thing to write about. So you're not too far off. Besides, if you read me with any frequency you'd see I'm studying many of these subjects right now . Of all people, I'd think you would understand this Sodaiho.


Yes, you are indeed, all over the forums. I also write all sorts of things, but as a priest, I try to write about my experience of life in a way that offers a spiritual connection, either to Zen or to Judaism or both. I occasionally comment on the other forums.

I do understand. As a former professor, and caring person, I am trying to help you, not criticize you. I am suggesting that making something relevant is often best done by contextualizing it in the present with real world exemplars of a concept or principle. Making something "fit" is only a part of the thing. If that's all there is, it will be subject to the sort of criticism you do receive, that it is text-based only, and since many people discount or do not hold the text sacred, they discount you, as well.

and I realized years ago, by noticing.....that jevery family has one "born again" in it. Most usually they are either considered the "black sheep" of the family or just plain nuts or dubbed the "religious" one. Am I right?


I don't think she is the black sheep, but she certainly has made life uncomfortable for some. If you profess to be a Christian and are living like a hedonist, well, I suppose being called on it is appropriate. On the other hand, if you are a righteous Jew, a practicing Buddhist, or a moral atheist, to be on the receiving end of un-solicited, nagging, bible thumping, and eventual judgement, well that's a different matter. It is what is most obnoxious about the practice of offering witness.

In Zen, we have something we call upaya, or skillful means. They Buddha taught that we should use different, skillful, approaches to differing situation and to people with differing levels of understanding. Jews do the same, as exemplified by the four questions at Pesach. I suspect Christians preachers and priests might consider teaching this as well, if they don't already. So, while Aunt Pearl may have "guts" she is often not skillful and as a result does much harm in her effort to care.

Baruch atah Adonai Eluheinu melachha o'lam! (Praise the Lord our God, King of the Universe!)

Be well.

on Feb 07, 2008
I suspect Christians preachers and priests might consider teaching this as well, if they don't already.


Yeah, that's right in the Bible. I believe there was a food analogy involved, but I can't remember it.

So there's this God. And He made everything. Why would He do that if He didn't need to, as God has no need? Maybe He already made everything, and destroyed it already, and is trying to set a new high score?

People buy things, do things they don't need to, etc., all the time. God just might as well.

The difference is, all the things people buy are made by God, too, so they're really God's. They are for His glory, not people's. So when people do it, it's misuse - but when God does it, it's not.

See, God is. Any preoccupation with anything besides Him is bad. Why? Because he DESERVES to be thought of all the time. He made you and me. Why shouldn't He have made us for His glory? He has already shown Himself to be more humble than any of us by becoming like us in order to die for us. The whole world is His, yet He gave it to us.

KFC:

I think Satan is constantly being given power over this world by the humans on it, not by God. See, God never revoked our stewardship over the Earth. But we often hand it over the Satan by doing what he would do instead of what God would do. If we wanted to, we could reclaim our stewardship over the Earth.

It would have been amazing to live with God in paradise forever, without life being this way. But because we fell, God did something even more amazing. Either way, He's glorified.
on Feb 07, 2008
We cannot know God's nature.


We can only know what he has revealed to us. We know about his love, his grace, his mercy, his wrath because as Christians we see it not only in his son but also in his word. Jesus came to reveal God's nature to mankind. When we saw him he said, we saw the father. He embodied all that the father is.

Garland has the ability to listen deeply, he refuses to judge others on the basis of faith, gender, race, etc,. We have invited him on several occasions to present in front of our group. A brave man, he accepts humbly.


He sounds like a wonderful man and great example to others.

try to show how ancient text "fits" a current application. This is not unlike Talmudic thinking, by the way. The effort is to somehow show the old text is pointing to an event, say the birth of Jesus or his claim to be the messiah, and show a perfect fit.


And that is exactly what Jesus did as well as Paul and the other Apostles. Christ went back to scriptures repeatedly. He expounded on those scriptures saying they spoke of him. Paul first taught in the synagogues. He taught the Hebrew Scriptures and how they applied to the Messiah that had indeed come already.

Every "messiah" has used text and contemporaneous events to "prove" his claim. Yet, when we look out the window, there is still suffering.


and we were warned about those "other Messiahs" We were told NOT to follow them; not to believe them. The next sign for us will be Christ coming in the clouds. That's our hope and the next thing to wait for.

Yes there is still suffering. That will never go away. There is no peace either. There will be no peace or comfort until the Prince of Peace comes back to this earth. Jesus made it clear that the poor and suffering we will always have with us. I believe it says alot about men's hearts doesn't it?

I am interested in application.


And that's great,application is very important, but it's hard to show application on the net here. I mean, sure I can sit here and brag about what a good Christian I am, but I choose to keep my good deeds, for the most part, secret. Jesus said don't go around gloryifying yourself that will be your reward. Do your deeds quietly, our Father in heaven sees all, he will reward you. I don't need pats on the back. I don't need affirmation from men....hahahah can't you tell?

Besides, I'm sure you can see application to some degree in what I write. I mean, I don't curse, I don't malign or flame others and quite often I let some very hurtful critical comments to my face go without a word. I ignore much. The human side of me wants to respond but the spiritual side of me says it won't bring glory to God so let it go. And I do. That's application.

On the other hand, if you are a righteous Jew, a practicing Buddhist, or a moral atheist, to be on the receiving end of un-solicited, nagging, bible thumping, and eventual judgement, well that's a different matter. It is what is most obnoxious about the practice of offering witness.


From a Christian POV we don't recognize righteous Jew or anyone for that matter. "There is none righteous, no not one."

But I do agree with you. Nagging and bible thumping is NOT what we are called to do. I don't do that here even. Yes, I have a biblical world view and it does come out, but if someone asks me to not go there or keep scripture out of it, I do. I also know who is receptive and who is not for the most part. I've made many comments on other's blogs without getting into scripture or "God speak" because I know they are not interested. Sometimes even I purposely avoid certain blog sites because I know I'm unwanted there. If you told me you didn't want me to speak on this subject on your blog, I would abide by your wishes.

Sometimes I wonder around here if I'm not just debating with the devil to be perfectly honest and think maybe I shouldn't say anything. I know for sure with some that's exactly what I'm doing. hahahahah but I won't name names.

(Praise the Lord our God, King of the Universe!)


Now I like that!! Say hi to Aunt Pearl for me Sodaiho.




on Feb 07, 2008
I think Satan is constantly being given power over this world by the humans on it, not by God.


He's a usurper. He snatches what he wants. He takes it. Yes the more under his control the more power he has. I agree I think that's evident by looking at our world today. I can't see the hearts of men obviously but I wonder as we get closer to the end if it's not as you say. I mean as he grips more and more hearts, he receives more and more power right? They do his bidding not even realizing they've been duped until it's too late.

It really does make sense that the closer we get to the end the further away our world will be from God and the more powerful Satan will be until it all culminates with the coming of the Anti-Christ. Jesus even said that when he did come back he wondered if there would even be faith on the earth.

Sin is compared to leaven or yeast. Sin corrupts like yeast does a dough spreading very quickly. That's what we are seeing today. And that's why we need to be very diligent in purging the leaven out of our churches or it corrupts the whole body.
on Feb 07, 2008
Sometimes life calls for fisticuffs. When Satan won't be quiet, kick his butt. Especially when he's talking to someone else. If only Adam had stuck around and squashed that sucker instead of letting him tell lies to his wife...
on Feb 07, 2008
When Satan won't be quiet, kick his butt. Especially when he's talking to someone else


hahahahah that's why I'm here.....I'm kicking butt....lol.

If only Adam had stuck around and squashed that sucker instead of letting him tell lies to his wife...


That's why Adam got blamed for all this. Sin entered thru the world thru "one man." Ultimately he was responsible as the headship of his family. Eve usurped his authority and Adam let her. It's all been downhill from there.





on Feb 07, 2008
Just read Perelandra... now that's a book. Basically, it's about the story of Eve being tempted but injecting in a third party. At least, that was the best part.