One of the most convincing evidences of God's existence is from causality.

OCK posts:


The Universe isn't eternal; it had a beginning and it's going to have an end; because God Being the First Cause created the Universe. The Universe limited in all its details could not be its own cause. It could no more come together with all its regulating laws that the George Washington Bridge could just happen or a clock could assemble itself and keep perfect time without a clock maker. On the same principle, if there were no God, and this also goes to answer KFC's article question, there would be no you to dispute His existence.



And while we are at it, let's go back to your question, "so what caused God then? God is Eternal." which is the sneering gibe always to be expected from an Atheist in a discussion with a believer in the existence of God. It is his breakaway when unable to answer the simple query,

"If not from God, tell me straight and not with the wise-crack, from where came Creation, from where does our interior law known as conscience come?"

God, the Creator cannot be a creature which He would be if He were made. Being a creature He would be a contingent, a dependent being, instead of a being that cannot be. He would be a composite being, made up of parts, subject to decomposition, death, hence, not a pure Spirit as is God.

God told us Himself that He is the "I AM Who AM." In other words, God has no past or no future. He is Eternal Being, and therefore without a beginning or an end. To ask, who made the Eternal is as absurd as to ask when the Eternal, the Timeless began. If the Eternal, who is God, were made as I wrote above, He would be a creature instead of the Creator; and if the Eternal God had a beginning (as the universe does), He would not be Eternal.

Your question suggests reasoning that is as senseless though not as enjoyable as asking: "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck, If a woodchuck could chuck wood?"

In studying the source of created things, right reason demands that we go intelligently from the finite back to the last of the series, beyond which we come to the Infinite. Words in our language would be minus their proper cntrast if the finite did not assume the existence of the Infinite; the imperfect, the Perfect; just as a contingent, a dependent being (man) calls for the existence of a Necessary Being, one who is independent, indispensible existing by and of Himself, who is God.

Just try to look, really look at God as we hold Him to be, the First Cause. The first is first, isn't that so? Of course, it is. Then only the one who takes the reason prisoner would ask, If the first is first, then who made the first?

If there were such a possible thing as the cause of the First Cause, it would not be the First Cause. So, therefore even you, the Atheist could see, if you would take an unbiased intellectual peep, that to ask who made God is as far-fetched as to ask what makes water wet? or what makes a circle round? or how high is up?

God is a Self-Existent, Spiritual Being, the "I AM WHO AM", the Causeless Cause, the Maker of the made.

Ock it's past your bedtime. You are a silly, silly man......too much partying during the Superbowl?

Actually, I don't party (if your reference is alluding to alcohol) and I'm not a big fan of watching testosterone laden millionaires running full tilt into each other at full speed, either. So I didn't watch the super bowl. In addition, regarding my bedtime, I wrote that during my morning (I live in Italy, currently) I guess I should add that I won 50$ in an office super bowl pool. 4 25$ awards were given for the scores at each quarter. I paid ten bucks for 10 squares and just let the guy running the pool pick my ten squares. I don't believe in luck, either.

Really? I thought you said you studied this? Again I noticed the "to me" statement that you keep using. Good. I'm glad you're clarifying this.

Not to speak for the Sax playing scientist, but I believe the "to me" is rendered for the sake of humility in not knowing everything. Particularly things that simply can not be tested scientifically. Although prayer was tested scientifically in a double blind study at least once, but it would be a long write to tell about it and the results, and since I'm fairly sure the results would not to be to the Christian liking, and therefore would be summarily dismissed as flawed somehow, I won't bother.

The Universe isn't eternal; it had a beginning and it's going to have an end; because God Being the First Cause created the Universe. The Universe limited in all its details could not be its own cause.

I think it could. I find that no more strange (and probably less strange since much of it can be measured) than the concept of a deity that created everything.

which is the sneering gibe always to be expected from an Atheist in a discussion with a believer in the existence of God.

I wasn't sneering. I find that to be a perfectly legitimate argument.


I'm about to write a fun little blog on "Guess who said this" where people guess the quoter of a few quotes I put up. I'll leave you with one of the answers, so readers of this thread will have one up on everyone else. Guess who said this:

I don't try to imagine a personal God; it suffices to stand in awe at the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it.
~Albert Einstein

KFC, I do not doubt the historicity of Jesus. Please re-read what you quoted of me. I doubt much of anything Christians today think they know about Jesus, as there is little to no contemporaneous historical record, as you yourself point out. So you are left with second and third hand accounts as well as the spin of Paul as he formed the early church. What we know of Jesus is more about what the early church wants us to know than anything else.

Be well.

Flat Earth Society? I'd never think so low of any intellect that was smart enough to make a web site, but by golly, there it is. Here's the Flat Earth FAQ in it's entirety. I got the EXACT same feeling reading this as I do reading this thread - not at all coincidentally.

General / this forum Q: "Is this site for real?" A: This site is real. There are people who seriously believe the Earth is flat. However, there are also people on this site who do not. Q: "Why do you guys believe the Earth is flat?" A: Well, it looks that way up close. Also, Samuel Rowbotham et al. performed a variety of experiments over a period of several years that show it must be flat. They are all explained in his book, which is linked at the top of this article. Government Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?" A: It's a conspiracy Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?" A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked. Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?" A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture. Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?" A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead PLEASE NOTE This means that pictures confirming the roundness or flatness of the Earth DO NOT IN THEMSELVES CONSTITUTE VALID PROOF Q: "What is the motive behind this conspiracy?" A: The motive is unknown although it is probably money Q: "If you're not sure about the motive, why do you say there is a conspiracy?" A: Well it's quite simple really; if the earth is in fact flat, then the governments must be lying when they say it isn't. Q: "The government could not pull off the conspiracy successfully" A: Actually, they could. Q: "How are the world governments organized enough to carry out this conspiracy?" A: They only appear to be disorganized to make the conspiracy seem implausible. Q: Why hasn’t this site been shut down by the government? A: Doing so would prove that the government is hiding something. Q: No way could the government possibly guard the entire Ice Wall! It would take too many men! Millions of men! A: Not really. You could do it with a few hundred and some basic equipment. Q: Why is NASA’s space shuttle runway curved? A: It was specially constructed by NASA to be so. After all NASA are at the heart of the conspiracy. The Earth in space Q: "What is the circumference and diameter of the Earth?" A: "Circumference: 78225 miles, Diameter: 24,900 miles Q: "What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?" A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions similar to a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by optical illusions. In the "accelerating upwards" model, the stars, sun and moon are also accelerating upwards. The stars are about as far as San Francisco is from Boston. (3100 miles) Q: "Please explain sunrises/sunsets." A: It's a perspective effect. Really, the sun is just getting farther away; it looks like it disappears because everything gets smaller and eventually disappears as it gets farther away. Q: "Why are other celestial bodies round but not the Earth?" A: The Earth is not one of the other planets. The Earth is special and unlike the other bodies in numerous ways. Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?" A: Since sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites can't orbit the Earth. The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites. Q: "What's underneath the Earth?" aka "What's on the bottom?" aka "What's on the other side?" A: This is unknown. Some believe it to be just rocks, others believe the Earth rests on the back of four elephants and a turtle. Q: "What about gravity?" A: The Earth is accelerating upwards at 1g (9.8m/s^2) along with every star, sun and moon in the universe. This produces the same effect as gravity. Q: "Isn't this version of gravity flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?" A: No. By the same argument, we could ask why planes/helicopters/paragliders don't crash into the Earth as they accelerate down towards them. The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce lift, which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, causes them to remain at a constant altitude. The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash. Q: "Doesn't this mean we'd be traveling faster than the speed of light, which is impossible?" A: The equations of Special Relativity prevent an object from accelerating to the speed of light. Due to this restriction, these equations prove that an object can accelerate at a constant rate forever, and never reach the speed of light. For an in depth explanation: Click here. Q: "If the world was really flat, what would happen if you jump off the disc's edge?" A: You would enter an inertial reference frame, moving at a constant velocity in the direction the Earth was moving before you jumped. The Earth would continue accelerating upwards past you at a rate of 1g, so it would appear to you that you were falling into space. Q: "If the Earth was indeed a flat disc, wouldn't the whole planet crunch up into itself and eventually transform into a ball?" A1: If the Earth generated a gravitational field, yes, it would eventually happen, after a billion years maybe. FE assumes that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field. What we know as 'gravity' is provided by the acceleration of the earth. A2: There is a counter-mass which pulls the Earth back into a disc shape. Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?" A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull. Q: Follow-up to previous question: How is it that the Earth does not have a gravitational pull, but stars and the moon do? A: This argument is a non sequitur. You might as well ask, "How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?" Snakes are not dogs or cats. The Earth is not a star or the moon. It doesn't follow that each must have exactly the properties of the others, and no more. Geography Q: Do you have a map? A: See this one, created by one of our members. There is also this map attributed to a person named Wilbur Voliva, and another by Heinrich Scherer. Also, there is Cosmas Indicopleustes' world picture, 6 th century in the Christian Topography. Q: Exactly what shape is the Earth if it's flat? Square or circle? A: Circle, like in the UN logo, however, the earth is NOT 2D, it is in the shape of a cylinder. Q: "Why doesn't water run off the Earth?" A: There is a vast ice wall that keeps the water where it is. The ice wall is roughly 150ft high. This also explains why you can find a vast plane of ice when you travel south. Antarctica as a continent does not exist. Q: "How does global warming affect the ice wall?" A1: The Ice Wall is really a mountain range. It just happens to be covered in ice and snow. A2: Global Warming doesn't happen. It and its counter-theory (Global Cooling) are effects that cancel each other out. Remember, these "greenhouse gasses" can reflect heat back out into space as well as keep it on Earth. Yes, there are recorded rises in temperature, but the only records we have go back, at most, around 150 years. This is very likely an occurrence that happens every [x>150] years, that's happened before (perhaps many times), and that the Earth has thus survived before. Q: "What about tides?" A: The tides exist due to a slight see-saw effect on the earth. As it goes back and forth, the water rushes to the side that is lower. Note, this is a very slight wobble. Remember, these wobbles are created by very minor earthquakes. They keep the tides in check. Notice that large earthquakes result in large tides or "tsunami". Q : "Why is the North pole colder than the equator?" A: The sun circles over the equator, thus the poles don't receive the same intensity of light. Q: "How do volcanic eruptions happen?" A: The Earth is thick enough to have a core of molten lava. Once there's too much of it in too confined a space, it finds its way out, just like the water will come out of a full bottle if you squeeze it too hard Q: "What about time zones?" A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead. Q: "What about Lunar Eclipses" (Possible A) The moon isn't a spotlight; it glows with light from the sun, reflected off the Earth. Different parts of the Earth are more reflective than others (the seas, the polar cap, the ice wall, for example). Sometimes, the position of the sun (which is a spotlight) means that only very low-reflective or non-reflective parts of the Earth's surface are illuminated, so the moon is abnormally dark. This could potentially explain lunar phases as well. Q: "How come the travel time by air from South America to New Zealand, via the polar route, is SHORTER than the travel time going North first and then South again?" A: (Presumed answer: The airline pilots are misled by their GPS, or are deliberately conspiring to make it appear that the flights take different times) Q: "How can a compass work on a Flat Earth?" A: The magnetic field is generated in the same fashion as with the RE. Thus, the magnetic south pole is near the geographic north pole, just like on the RE. The magnetic north pole is on the underside of the Earth. The Ice Wall is not the south pole, but acts as it, as it is the furthest from the center of the earth that you can follow the magnetic field. The field is vertical in this area, accounting for the aurora australis. Q: "When traveling in a straight direction, you will always reach the same point on the globe from where you started. How can this happen if the world is flat?" A: You need to have evidence for this to be true. Also, define "straight." Remember, the northern point on the compass is, under most circumstances (unless near the centre or deep in the ice wall), pointing toward the centre of the Earth. Therefore, if you follow your compass due east or due west, ending up at the same point you started from, you've just gone around the world in a circle. Q: If you go directly south won’t you eventually fall off the edge of the Earth? A: Yes, you will. In order to use this fact as proof you need to record a video of someone flying directly south around the world without falling off the edge. Furthermore you need to prove that your navigational equipment allows you to travel directly south without deviating. Q: How come when I flush my toilet in the northern hemisphere it goes counterclockwise but I have this friend in Australia and when he flushes it goes clockwise? You're mistaken. On a round Earth, the Coriolis effect adds at most one (counter)clockwise rotation per day; fewer as you get closer to the equator. The water in your toilet/sink/bathtub/funnel spins much faster than that (probably at least once per minute, or 1440 times per day) so the additional/lost rotation from the Coriolis effect wouldn't be noticed. Q: How do seasons work? The radius of the sun's orbit around the Earth's axis symmetry varies throughout the year, being smallest when summer is in the northern annulus and largest when it is summer in the southern annulus.

Lula, as regards your detailed reply to my post, you present a lot of tainted information, spun either by you or your sources to make a case for Christianity and against Judaism. Why?

Not if you believe the accounts are eye witness accounts as the gospels were. Paul, as you probably know, was a Pharisee of all Pharisees on his way to kill the Christians himself. He had a remarkable change of heart. Something affected him in a drastic way.

John, who wrote four books of the NT, was Polycarp's teacher. Polycarp of Smyrna was a prominent pastor. Polycarp went on to teach many in the first century church and these students of John's and Polycarp had no problem with the Gospel of John, his letters and his book of Revelation. So why should we? Polycarp knew John personally and we do have some of his writings from the first century. Polycarp was burned alive at 86 years of age for what? Believing in Christ. Many died during this time for the faith believing in the one they either had met personally or believed in thru the Apostles such as John and later Polycarp and his disciples. In some parts of the world it's still happening today.



That is wrong theology.

ARGH!!!!! That hurts so much...I can't believe people actually believe that! Ice Wall? Government/NASA conspiracy? Are you freakin' kidding me? That's way too much crazy for me, thank you...ugh. I wanted to see some "LOL j/k guys" but no...it's not there...they actually believe it. It's...it's a travesty...oh God. These people need to be institutionalized...

~Zoo

Wait, wait, hold the phone!!! I thought that you just found that and it was all a joke! People honestly believe that the earth is flat? I mean, in their heart of hearts, they've come up with answers to all of life's questions...in a completely lunatic way! I do not believe how stupid these people are. I mean, I believe a lot of things that other people might think are strange, but come on!!! That's nuts. Holy cow.

Welcome to my world. I'm a science major...for the love of God, it burns.

They think the world is some kind of hockey puck shape protected by some freaky ice wall that the government won't let you get near...err, rather "THE GOVERNMENT" because obviously all world governments are in complete agreement on keeping the ice wall and the cylinder earth a secret along with NASA.

Ugh...now I'm dizzy...

~Zoo

well nobody on this site today believes any of that flat earth mumbo jumbo so not sure what the point is other than there are crazies all around us who believe in all sorts of stuff like leprechauns and the flat earth.

Welcome to my world. I'm a science major...for the love of God, it burns.

and welcome to my world (I'm a Christian who still believes in creation....for the love of God it will burn someday)

OCK POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

Well said, KFC.

What's the point you ask....I would suggest that OCK is trying to use the Flat Earthers as a term of derision for well, people like us, FKC...for people who tell it like is as has we have on this thread....we question Evolution and believe in God, in Jesus Christ as our Savior and in the Holy Bible.

There WAS a point to posting that. Those people believe, and they believe they have proof to back it up. And no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them because of faith.

Now I imagine a "go and tell" Christian might like to go and tell them they're barking up the wrong tree and thanks to the eternal vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleansing, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sado masochistic, loving and forgiving god will soon be burning eternally in hell. They're giving Christian fundamentalism a bad name. Ahem.

So do your duties, Lula and KFC. Go and tell them. Please post a link to the conversation - I'd like to read it.

Because Christians are going to heaven and Jews ain't, neener-neener-neener.

That is wrong theology.

The first sign of a genuinely forgiving person is an expansive sense of humor.

Actually, Lula, it has little to do with any dogma, and more to do with closed eyes.

Heh...I believe(or rather I know) in Evolution and question my religion. Of course, I always thought this the most sensible method of conducting mental and spiritual growth and development. Never take anything at face value...always search for evidence. So I do just that.

~Zoo

we question Evolution

Good. People should question all things. Here's an evolution question for you that I'm sure you know the answer to since you question it. How many different kinds of birds and mammals were there 250 million years ago?