There's a lot of speculation there. Over the course of time, many bodies were removed from graves/tombs for various reasons not known at the time.

Yes, but in this case it would serve no one to steal the body. The Romans? If they stole the body it would only fuel the speculations of the Christians awaiting some resurrection promised. That's why the tomb was heavily guarded for that very reason. They didn't need to let this speculation continue. They wanted this nipped in the bud. Do you think they stole the body? It wouldn't serve their purpose to do so.

The Disciples or Family members? First off, not many family members believed him. Second of all they would have to get past guards and a two ton stone that was rolled into place risking their life in doing so. Also, the eyewitness account afterwards showed the linen clothes were folded neatly in the tomb. Now if someone was going to steal this wrapped body would they take the time to unwrap the tightly wound burial cloths and then fold them neatly leaving them behind? I don't think so.

Besides all that, his believers with the exception of just a couple had all fled the scene in fear. There was no way they were going near that tomb nor were they at the foot of his cross. In fact, his closest disciple had gone on record denying him. By all accounts they had all fallen apart. One killed himself and the rest were all in hiding. Then to top all this off, after they were convinced he was resurrected (by seeing him in person) they risked their very lives for this. Would they have done so for a lie? I don't think so.

Now, if you can produce a living Jesus, then we have something to talk about. Saying that a body is not there is not "proof" of anything but an empty grave

Honestly? You would? I don't think so. We do have writen eyewitness accounts. Paul said:

He was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. And that he was SEEN of Peter, then of the 12. After that he was seen of ABOVE 500 brethren at once of whom the greater part remain unto the present (still living) but some have fallen asleep (died). After that he was seen of James then of all the Apostles and last of all he was seen of me also as one born out of due time." 1 Cor 15.

Luke the physician wrote: "even as they delivered them to us which from the begining were EYEWITNESSES and ministers of the word. It seemed good to me also having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first to write to you in order most excellent Theophilus. That you might know the certainty of those things wherein you have been instructed. " Luke 1:2-4

Jesus even said himself "If they hear NOT Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31

Christians are undoubtedly the most selfish people in the entire world. "If I don't have a chance at getting into Heaven, then I don't see any reason to help anyone."

Well you say you like research. You might want to check out the many books out there over the years on those martyrs who gave their lives for others in the name of Christ. Christ said that many would die on account of him. For what? Telling others the good news? Ya, that's real selfish.

I don't believe in Christianity, but if you ask people that know me, you will find that I am honest to a fault. I am also very moral and ethical. My parents were not Christian. I have never believed in any religion. So, what has made me this way?

I don't doubt it. I know many ethical moral people who are NOT Christians. I've never doubted that. But from God's perspective none of us are good. We still have a darkness in our hearts (whether we admit it or not) that is tainted by sin. I do understand that many out there think we don't sin or we can be capable of not sinning.

earth is not all we have. I'm OK with having this life only. I'm OK with thinking that we're just dead when we die. I respect life even more for assuming that this is all there is. I don't need to believe that there was a man that died and was reincarnated...oops...I mean, "resurrected" who came here to "save us". All I need to know is that I am here and that living my life in a way that harms no one is the way to be.

Well maybe that's what Christ meant when he said those that believe in him not only have life but they have an "abundant life." We all have life but I believe that those in Christ (truly) do have an abundant life. It's hard to explain but it's true. I've been on both sides and understand there is more to life than what we see here.

It is selfish when the only reason you're doing it is so you can get brownie points with God and getting the foot in the door to heaven.

Helping people to see them smile, to know they're feeling better, that should be the only reward you really want.

~Zoo

and where are you getting that from? How can you judge another's motive?

So Daiho posts:

OckhamsRazor posts:


KarmaGirl posts:

No doubt, there are many without a belief in Christianity who give in their lives examples of moral conduct. It isn't new that a system of ethics can exist without a religion as in the case of Greek philosophers and rationalists while the ethics of Buddhism adapts or entwines themselves around the religion of the countries where it penetrates.

KarmaGirl asks, so what has made me this way?

In other words, how do /why/what makes unbelievers distinguish good from evil, right from wrong? Where does there sense of moral obligation come from?

I would suggest that Someone implanted that understanding in us, the laws of physics can't. In doing good conduct, you are most probably answering your voice of conscience hardwired by God for your own good. In doing good, in not being a serial killer, thief or child rapist, in being honest,ethical, and moral, you are in practice applying God's commandment of love. Distinguishing good and evil requires broad, even absolute standards and Someone competent to set those standards. That Someone is God who is our Beginning and our Last End.

From what's been said here:







No Jesus, no reason for good...at least that's what these quotes tell me. I'm all for living well for others and myself, God doesn't have to be the main focus for my good behavior. I want to help because I don't want others feeling bad...that's my reason. To do good on the basis of "If I do this, God will love me and I'm totally going to heaven" to me, seems rather selfish. Like a child try to get attention from a parent.

Being truly selfless and good comes about with no promise of a reward, be it money, love, or paradise...but maybe that's just me.

~Zoo

KarmaGirl posts:

There is an implicit but astonishing arrogance in the idea that all of the Apostles, all of the early Church, all of the written accounts of the Church Fathers and all the millions of ordinary Christians were fundamentally mistaken about Christ's rising from the tomb, leaving it empty, His departure leaving only sheets of His burial, for nineteen centuries now, and only a relatively few unbelievers, in a very different culture, 19 centuries later, finally understood Him and what really went on!!!

we don't do nice and good things because of a reward Zoo...sigh. You just don't get it do you? I don't beieve in a works based theology Zoo.

We do it because we love God and want to please him. We do it because he wants us to and we wish to be obedient. We do it because he showed us how. We do it because it best represents Christ, the one we are following. There was no greater lover than his was there? Can you show me one Atheist who would die for the whole world? How about Buddha? Did he? How about Mohammed? Did he? Even those that are blowing themselves up over in the middle east are doing so for purely selfish reasons. They are doing it for reward in the afterlife. Christ gave his life for the world and it was totally a selfless act. He gave his life for yours and mine Zoo. Nothing selfish about it.

We do these things because he gives us the love to be able to do so. Many people say to me....how in the world can you treat a person so nice that beats you up all the time? How can you be nice to so and so? I answer, it's not coming from me. I can only love the unloveable because God gives me what I need to do so. It's impossible for me to love others like I do on my own. I'm too human.

Remember the Amish people who were willing to forgive when their children were killed back a while ago? Many people asked the same question. How can you forgive such a horrendous thing? We love because God first loved us. The world didn't understand Zoo but the Christians did.

I don't know how many Christians over the years was willing to trade their lives for another. Happens all the time. THey are called Martyrs. It's all born out of love...not reward. They already have their reward.

I already know I'm going to heaven. So I'm not nice to you or anyone in hopes I get there. I don't believe in a works based theology.

KarmaGirl posts:

I would suggest this is a description of purpose is one serving "self".

This worldview, btw, comes as a consequence of belief in Evolution. It goes something like this: If humans descended from animals, why shouldn't humans behave like animals...emulate animals? If everything came into existence by chance and natural evolutionary processess evolved from one primordial cell, then we have no responsibility to the Supernatural Creator. Man should be the object of greatest concern not some fictitious Creator that weak-minded man actually created.

KarmaGirl posts:

You and me both...that is assuming you and I have the same definition of what "fanatical" means.   

That's what Jesus did...but he was already sinless. So yes, he was selfless and a true example of the pinnacle of giving without reward.

Though I'm a bit more pessimistic about other people. When you say that if your meaning is taken away, that you would revert to an uncaring attitude because there's "no reason." That denotes a hint of selfishness, in my mind anyway.



Are you really that confident? Heh, wish I could be...I'm not sure if I'm going up, down, or sideways.

~Zoo

That's not an entirely bad outlook. Animals live life the way it's meant to be lived...humans get lost in trivial things. It also gives someone responsibility of the way the act and that's something I'd like to see more of in this society...not playing the blame game, but owning up to one's own mistakes. When someone compares us to animals, the human ego goes "No, I'm better than any animal." Is that really the case, though? Just because we're animals doesn't mean we're monsters nor does it make us any less "human."

~Zoo

Yes, I am. You can be. Open up the word and start reading it and pray God gives you the same answer he gave me. Only then will you even begin to understand the way of the Christians.



I didn't say I'd revert. I'm just saying why bother being a goody goody two shoes if this is all that I'm going to expereince? For some they may go even crazier than I and do. I should grab all the gusto I can while I live my short 70 or so years and while I can still be nice to others, it's still deep down going to be all about me.

It certainly wouldn't be about God now would it. He's out of the picture.

Have you ever seen an atheist on his death bed Zoo? I have. It's not pretty.

As opposed to anyone else on their death bed? I've seen enough death, myself...none of it is pretty.

~Zoo

KarmaGirl posts:


Here again you are saying that you don't need to be religious or believe in God or in Jesus CHrist to be good and honest. Here you take your own virtue as a standard and proceed to find other people (who fill your "I don't need" list) wanting when measured by it.

I've noticed it often happens that those who practice no religion canonize themselves as the models and regard religious people as weak-minded, sinners and hypocrites?

Here is some food for thought that you may want to consider.

It would be better for you to take up your religious duties...becasue it's impossible to be really good and honest without being religious.

Divine religion is the highest form of honesty, a strict duty to GOd. Each of us owes a great debt to God and a lesser one to his neighbor. You pay the lesser, but willfully neglect the greater. Your neighbor, the Christian who fulfills his religious duty at least tries to pay the greater, though he may seem to you to neglect that duty and not do it well. Relgious people sometimes fail in their duty to their fellow man, and I don't justify it. But men are insignificant compared with God who supplied you with all you have and receives no acknowledgment from you. I would rather be in the position of those you condemn. If a choice had to be made, their religion may save them despite their faults. Your honesty and goodness will not save you.

Well, ha, ha, I don't know about you Zoo, but ol' LulaPilgrim here is better than any animal out there. I'm above all animals in every way, shape and form...it's not my doing, but Almighty God's doing.

I have an inner voice called a conscience, an eternal soul endued with intellect (understanding) and free will, and a guardian angel to watch over me, as well as a big mouth to tell everyone about it!