Apoc. 8:6-7 "And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound the trumpet.
7 And the first angel sounded the trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mingled with blood, and it was cast on the earth. And the third part of the earth was burnt up, and the third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

To review a bit, Christ has opened the 7th seal of the Scroll which will reveal the mystery of the Messianic Kingdom to the whole world.

V. 6------The opening of the seventh seal leads to another symbolic "seven" for it contains all 7 trumpets, the last 3 trumpets are also the three woes. The last trumpet leads to the 7 bowls, Apoc. 11:15. The trumpet passages describe the same events as the previous six seals do only giving more detail. We’ll view the details of the Christ’ coming judgment through a different perspective.... same period, same events --different angle. This is called recapitulation.

7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth.

These are frightening words here. Many take these words symbolically, but we will take at face value as we have been doing all along. It makes perfect sense to do so.

I can certainly understand taking this vivid apocalyptic language in the literal sense when describing God’s judgment of the Sanhedrin and the effects of the Jewish Roman war on the land of Israel in 70AD. Before you wince at this KFC, notice how closely all 7 trumpets parallel the signs that Jesus gave to His disciples in St.Luke 21.

We see hail, fire and blood mentioned. Some believe the word for fire is lightening. We know the word is the same (Pur) which can be either "fire" or specifically, literally lightening.

I interpret the “ hail, fire and blood ” symbolically. Blood is a product of human and animal life and doesn’t fall out of the sky. So what are these symbolic descriptions telling us? That the End is near, very near and it’s time to get back to God. God is calling men to repent.

The first four trumpet-plagues don’t directly strike mankind like the corresponding seals, but they effect his living space. These natural cataclysms are similar to the extraordinary natural disasters that already occurred with the breaking of the 6th seal, and they served to announce the approaching Judgment.

Blood is symbolic. Actual blood more so than the word. Again, how can you say these things are symbolic just by mentioning them when it's clear the symbolism is built into it ACTUALLY OCCURING? Like the number 144,000... it's symbolic, but only because it's going to actually be 144,000.

Yes, Jytheir, in this passage, hail, fire mingled with blood is symbolic to me. Have KFC explain the literal sense of this passage..hail, fire, mingled with blood cast on the earth.

If the hail, fire, mingled with blood misture consumes "all" the grass, how could 2/3 of the trees survive this in a natural way? Hail is caused by freezing temperatures, but fire is very hot-- they aren't compatible...(yet, the symbolical impression is that they mean very harming and damaging things...the Final Judgment is coming...is sin harming and damaging to one's soul?) The answer to these physical anomalies is that none of them are to be taken literally...this is apocalyptic language...these are physically naturally impossible.

But what isn't naturally impossible is what we learned from the 6th seal which is recapulitated in the trumpet-plagues. The 6th seal signals the preparation for the Final Judgment, but not the Final Judgment itself. God is looking from above keeping all that is going on here on earth under constant examination...Scripture tells us that before the Final Judgment He will send appropriate partial judgments...wars, famine, earthquakes, disease, etc.

These apocalyptic events are looked at from man's perpective and from God's perspective.



The 144,000 is symbolic to me. That it's an actal number of a select group of "sealed" Jewish evangelists who will work with Christ during the 1,000 year period in order to convert the remaining members of nations, understood as unsaved, since they weren't 'raptured'. Nah, I can't buy that.

That it's an actal number of a select group of "sealed" Jewish evangelists who will work with Christ during the 1,000 year period in order to convert the remaining members of nations, understood as unsaved, since they weren't 'raptured'. Nah, I can't buy that.

I NEVER said that Lula. You are twisting my words here. The 1,000 years COMES AFTER the WRATH OF GOD is over. The Jewish Evangelists are DONE with their work on earth by then. Their actual time on earth doing this evangelizing is most likely 3/12 years more or less. Never did I put them with 1,000 years in the Millenium.

You have a hangup on the 1,000 years for some reason. I can't seem to get thru to you Lula on this. Again, I don't know how else I can say this.

The rest I'll get to later.

According to Left Behind, all believers live through the 1000 years. But I think they went a little too far with "Kingdom Come" so I didn't read it all the way through.

I'm sorry if this upset you. I just put it out there as "food for thought", not implying that it was your position or something you said.



If I'm not mistaken, those of the dispensational pre-millennial position see Apoc. 7 as set in the distant future during a 1,000 literal period that Christ physically reigns on earth.

Apoc. 8:6-7 "And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound the trumpet.
7 And the first angel sounded the trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mingled with blood, and it was cast on the earth. And the third part of the earth was burnt up, and the third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

Re: the second part of V. 7--- St.John’s first glimpse of the “one-third” sequence.



Yes, this does speak of God’s mercy and love....the objective is convincing mankind to repent of their sins. The one-third is used to symbolize not final or total but partial judgment. It’s the Final Judgment when the total “three-thirds” will be taken away!



Yes, he did. Ezekiel 5:1-17 uses the one-third in the course of God’s judgment. Here, Ezekiel 5 is a “type” of the Final Judgment meaning total judgment. Jerusalem is being judged for her aspostasy and God tells Ezekiel that one-third of the people will die by plague or famine; one third will be killed by the evading army’s sword and one third will be scattered to the winds followed by a sword.
In the case of Ezekiel since 3 "one-thirds" add up to a whole, God’s judgement here is total.

So the first four trumpets are going to be partial judgments, but where are they going to occur?

The fact that it’s “four” trumpets gives us the clue....it represents a global judgment. So, it's going to be a partial judgment, but all over the world. Another interesting aspect of looking at this is the fact that the four trumpets follow the same pattern in the first four days of Creation. God created light, land, water and celestial bodies. In Apoc. 9:1, St.John focuses on man and animals, corresponding to the 5th and 6th day of Creation.

The material objects that these trumpets effect represent life and vitality. These taken symbolically could well represent God’s Revelation, the written Gospel and (for me--oral Tradition) that gives mankind its spiritual life and vitality.

Another use of the ‘one-third” is Zechariah 13:8-9.

I count that St.John uses the word “third” 14 times in Apoc. 8-9. The 14 times is symbolic too as in two “sevens”. That means these judgments are exact and precise. Getting ahead, Judgments in Apoc. 11 last 42 months...and the number “two” refers to Two Witnesses which bring down the plagues upon mankind during the 1260 days of their preaching... evidently fire comes out of their mouths...they shut the sky so it doesn’t rain....they turn waters into blood. Understanding all this symbolically, these are a composite of the judgments in Apoc. 8-9, which to me describe in detailed order the power of the Gospel on mankind.




No, not exactly taken like the plagues of Egypt. The trumpet-plagues are to be understood differently. For starters, Exodus wasn’t a symbolic book. They weren’t symbolic in the sense that those plagues were occurences that could exist. The differences between the trumpet plagues of Apoc. 8 is that the unnatural misture of elements and the emphasis is on one-third partial judgments. Exodus doesn’t speak of numbers as a third sustaining judgment and two-thirds escaping....ALL the land of Egypt was devestated by the ten plagues.

But I think they went a little too far with "Kingdom Come" so I didn't read it all the way through.

I didn't read that far. I read the first maybe five or six books and couldn't get back into it.

I'm sorry if this upset you. I just put it out there as "food for thought", not implying that it was your position or something you said.

well you put it in such a way that it looked like I was saying this to be true and I said no such thing. So I wanted to clarify this.

If I'm not mistaken, those of the dispensational pre-millennial position see Apoc. 7 as set in the distant future during a 1,000 literal period that Christ physically reigns on earth.

No, I've never heard this to be true. Most believe these redeemed in Chap 7 are those who died during the tribulation. I'm saying it's the rapture not the death of the believer that we're seeing here. The vast multitude of Chap 7 is definitely coming out of the trib. It's just basically how they come to be in heaven that seems to be the question.

The fact that it’s “four” trumpets gives us the clue....it represents a global judgment

well it's really "seven" trumptets Lula not four. I'm just writing on the first four so I'm not understanding your point here.

Another interesting aspect of looking at this is the fact that the four trumpets follow the same pattern in the first four days of Creation. God created light, land, water and celestial bodies

I count that St.John uses the word “third” 14 times in Apoc. 8-9. The 14 times is symbolic too as in two “sevens”. That means these judgments are exact and precise. Getting ahead, Judgments in Apoc. 11 last 42 months...and the number “two” refers to Two Witnesses which bring down the plagues upon mankind during the 1260 days of their preaching... evidently fire comes out of their mouths...they shut the sky so it doesn’t rain....they turn waters into blood. Understanding all this symbolically, these are a composite of the judgments in Apoc. 8-9, which to me describe in detailed order the power of the Gospel on mankind.

This just goes to show you can make anything something and drift away from what's really being said. Why not just take it as how it's being said?

Exodus wasn’t a symbolic book.

Well Revelation is not all symbolic either. You're just assuming Revelation is totally symbolic. That's not true. If John was writing just a symbolic book it would mean nothing to nobody. John wrote a book about a vision he saw. He penned what he saw for the past, present and future. Yes there are some symbolic things in here, but you just don't assume everything in here is a symbol. Blood can be blood. Hail can be just hail, etc. If it makes sense......seek no other sense.

The 14 times is symbolic too as in two “sevens”. That means these judgments are exact and precise.

says who? What is this, a code? Why can't it be ....."14 is a division of 7 so it must be pairs he's talking about here?"

You're taking this and making it into something that's not there. Just believe what John says. If he says one third is killed. Then why not just believe it?

Besides how did you get 1/3 burned up or earth affected 14 times? Are you sure about this number? Are you counting a "third" angel in v10 which totally skews your 14 number?

There is no reason not to understand this and the other judgments plainly. If you symbolize this whole thing, you can make it be anything you wish it to be.

lula posts:

KFC POSTS:


Yes, the 7th seal contains all 7 trumpets. The first 4 are described and then distinguished from the last 3 trumpets which
are also the three woes.



All I said, KFC, is that St.John uses the word "third" 14 times in Apoc. 8-9.

Check out 8:7 (twice); 8:8 (once); 8:9 (twice); 8:10 (once); 8:11 (once); 8:12 (five) 9:15 (once) and 9:18 (once).

LLULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

KFC, the Apocalypse has always been known as the most symbolic Book of Scripture...and, for the most part, this is the way I read and understand it, therefore I do take it as how it's being said...symbolically.

I'm describing what the symbolism means to me...all the while adding to the discussion. You may think that what I said is "making anything something"...however, to me, it's a legitimate correlation of those passages....good food for thought.






Okay, then please explain the literal sense of v. 7; how in the literal sense, do you explain "hail and rain, mingled with blood and it was cast on the earth"? I get the hail and the rain explanation and I can accept fire as lightening...but these "mingled with blood" taken literally?

I've given my understanding of what the symbolism of "hail and rain, mingled with blood" means as follows:

Apoc. 8: 10-11 "And the third angel sounded the trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, burning as it were a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and upon the (fountains) springs of water. 11 and the name of the star is called Wormwood. And a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.”


The third trumpet concerns wormwood. St.John uses the imagery of wormwood from the OT as you say in Jeremiah 9: 14-15; also 23: 15, Lm. 3:15 and Amos 5:7.

The Wormwood imagery is a judgment from God. A great star that falls from Heaven represents judgment from heaven and the waters represent the Gospel itself, the Gospel waters. Becasue of their apostasy, and sin the people don’t want what God gives them that they might grow unto salvation.



Again taken literally, you see these verses as men physically dying because of a “poisoned” water supply.

I see wormwood as a spritual poison and yes, men will die the eternal death because of this. Some will preach a false or poisoned Gospel. These deceivers who should have guided the people became wormwood, that is, they abused the Gospel and are giving us poison in its place. We must understand that God isn’t neutral when His Word is abused...His judgment will come.

z

Okay, then please explain the literal sense of v. 7; how in the literal sense, do you explain "hail and rain, mingled with blood and it was cast on the earth"? I get the hail and the rain explanation and I can accept fire as lightening...but these "mingled with blood" taken literally?

Actually it's hail and fire, not rain. Okay, why not literal? Why can't blood come from heaven? How did the blood get in all the waters in the Exodus? Either God just sends it down or as the hail and lightening fell from fire it mingled with the blood of man as it made contact. I'm not sure how it happens exactly. All I can say is it happens because it says it will happen and somehow whether it comes from above or mingles with what is coming from above, John wrote about it.

The answer to these physical anomalies is that none of them are to be taken literally...this is apocalyptic language...these are physically naturally impossible.

So isn't walking on water physically impossible!!

You are showing a lack of faith here Lula. How big is your God?

"The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" (said Jesus) Luke 18:27

Again taken literally, you see these verses as men physically dying because of a “poisoned” water supply.

yes. That's what John saw and wrote down.

Each plague in the Exodus was not a "spiritual" happening. It was a literal reality. That's what we are seeing here as well.

Ha, now the Apocalypse is literal reality!

Apocaypse is decribing the Church's spiritual battle between good and evil, past, present and future and how she comes unto fullness with the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the world.

Apoc. 8: 12-13 “And the fourth angel sounded the trumpet, and a third part of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third part of them was darkened and the day did not shine for a third part of it, and likewise the night. 13 And I beheld, and heard the voice of one eagle flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth: by reason of the rest of the voices of the three angels who are yet to sound the trumpet. ”



The fourth trumpet tells us the universe’s light sources are reduced by one-third of their light capacity curtailing the possibility of things growing and flourishing on earth won’t last much longer.




Yes, the one-third limitation of these characterizes them as partial judgments. Since St. John's text is symbolic, he is no doubt referring to spiritual darkness or absence of light. It’s God’s call to repentance, the time for grace and the possibility are still at hand....but not much longer.

Zechariah 13:8-9 is a good one here.

“IN the whole land, says the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. 9 And I will put this third into fire and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call my name, and I will answer them, I will say, “They are my people” and they will say, “The Lord is my God.”

Similarly, the final day of our Lord is Judgment Day, there is going to be an obliteration both physical and spiritual of the sun and other celestial bodies. Prior to that day, there is a partial yet continual one-third diminishing of the light.