These are NOT Jehovah Witnesses
Published on September 3, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Continuing on with the Apocalypse we come to Chapter 7 and will read verses 1-8. We read this:

1After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.


Ok, we are coming on the heels of 6:17 which asked who would be able to stand during these most frightening times? We need to remember that we, in modern times, put the chapter and verses in. We need to keep v17 in mind as we read this. Who will be able to stand?

The answer to that question are these that are mentioned here. They will stand. We see this group of what appears to be Jewish Evangelists will be sealed and protected by God himself. Without the Lord, no one would be able to stand. Only those protected and sealed will stand and be unaffected by the upcoming happenings on earth.

In the OT we have the example in Noah. Only he and his family were able to stand safely in the ark while complete chaos literally submerged the earth. He may have fallen down a few times, but he always got up. He was safe and secure protected by God..

We see here in v1 that Angels are very active in God's work. These "wind" angels are holding onto the four courners of the earth. What? What happened to the round earth? Perhaps this is where the thought of a flat earth first came to be known. Scientifically the earth does in fact have four distinct corners. Our compass points to this fact.

So here we have these angels holding back winds from the entire earth. Winds stand for the judgment of God. We read in Jeremiah 49:36:

Against Elam I will bring the four winds From the four quarters of heaven, And scatter them toward all those winds; There shall be no nations where the outcasts of Elam will not go

So here we read of the Angels in charge of the winds. We also read of Angels in charge of waters in Rev 16:5:

And I heard the angel of the waters saying: “You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged these things.

of fire in 14:18a:

And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire,

So the Lord uses Angels to execute his work. How long must they hold back here? This is the calm before the big storm. When the 7th seal is broken it will ultimately open the door to the wrath of God that will overtake the whole earth.

We see another Angel here with God's seal (sphragis); a signet stamp impressed on a seal and is a mark of ownership. It's a mark of privacy / genuiness. Later in 14:1 we will come to this:

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads

It's like it's being said, "Don't touch. I own this person. They have been sealed." God has told the forces of evil, "They are mine. Don't touch them."

Just like the 144,000 seen here we are owned by God. We have his protection not only from the evil forces but also from the divine wrath and judgments of God. John may be thinking of the OT scripture in Ezek 9:3-6.

3Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4and the Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.” 5To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6“Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.”

We see it's God who gives the insructions here. He said to put a mark on those who grieve over sin. The rest do not pity. These words here in Ezekiel have a prophetic ring to them as we look forward to Revelation 7.

So the instruction is not to touch the earth, sea and trees until these 144,000 are sealed. This kind of gives us an impression of the storm to come. It's going to be all inclusive. We had a storm rip thru here the other night and the trees were bent over with the tops of many of them almost bent to the ground. So I can only imagine the intensity of this coming storm about to be unleashed on the unsuspecting earth. When they least expect it. Like Chist said, "when they are eating and drinking and marrying. " In other words, when life seems normal he will come.

So who are these 144,000 sealed ones?

1. Saved believers who are called redeemed.
2. They are protected servants
3. They are Jewish evangelists

They are witnesses on earth doing the work of God. Now contrast this mark to the mark of the beast which we see in 13:16-17:

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

There are a number of ways Satan wants to imitate God. Here is yet another example. We are either serving God almighty or Satan himself. There is no middle road. Sorry to burst any independent bubbles out there. But it has to be said.

Satan wants his own churches like God's so he just infiltrates them. Basically he's just taking them over. This is no diff than what he did in the Garden. He went after who God loved. He does the same with the churches. Christ died for the church after he established it. Satan has the same ol' bag of tricks. They work. No need to change his MO. It's his goal to be as God. His desire is to be worshipped. His desire is for us to transfer our love for God over to him. Who are we working for?

Some say the 144,000 are just symbolic for all mankind. Well, why not look at it literally first before we jump onto the symbolic ship? Could it be just as it says, 144,000 people? Yes it could. So that's where we'll stay.

I think taking this symbolically is to cut the Jewish people out of the picture. This is doing a disservice to the Jews by taking this passage figuratively. I say, God chose 144,000 Jews here, period.

The records were burned, and there's no real conclusive way to know which tribes are which from a human standpoint, but God knows. He does his own record keeping. His computer never crashes because "he always saves."

The term "Children of Israel" is a term not used for the church. It's a term always applied to the nation Israel. These are actual Jews selected for His purposes. The Apostles would not have even thought otherwise. Acts 9:15 says:

But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. “For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

This passage refers to Paul. Notice the people groups are separated. So the 12 tribes mentioned are never used to describe the church. Therefore, there is no point to say otherwise. Isaiah says in 11:10-12:

And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”11It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.12He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth
.

Just to quickly peruse the list we see Judah is #1. Why? He wasn't the firstborn son. He was named because the root of Jesse would come out of it. Christ would come from this line.

Reuben, first born to Jacob, is named in second place. He forfeited his place because of sexual immorality.

We see Dan is missing (Judges 18). The tribe of Dan was into idol worship so they were taken off the list. It's actually Jewish tradition that says the Anti-Christ will come out of the tribe of Dan.

Manasseh mentioned here in v6 was a replacement and is the son of Joseph. Usually when you see Manasseh you see Ephraim, his brother, named as well. Ephraim was also guilty of idol worship.

“Ephraim is joined to idols, Let him alone. Hosea 4:17

I know Ephraim, And Israel is not hidden from Me; For now, O Ephraim, you commit harlotry; 5:3

An idol is anything that takes our attention off from the one true God.

I believe he's warning us here. He's serious about this idol worship thing. Remember his very first command is

"Have no other gods before me."

What idols do you have in your life that you need to get rid of? We all can and should do a little closet cleaning daily. For some of us only a shovel will do. Let's get rid of the idols, clean up our act and get to work for God as these 144,000 are about to do.




















Comments
on Sep 05, 2007
KFC,
Now you've got me really confused. I've just read these first few lines of your article and you are nowing answering the question who will be able to stand in the positive..


KFC WRITES:
Who will be able to stand?

The answer to that question are these that are mentioned here. They will stand. We see this group ...


WHEREAS ......

at the bottom of your previous article, Revelation 6:12-17, Wrath of God Unleashed, you write that NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO STAND. Here's the quote:

Sin has to be punished. A just God cannot leave sin unpaid. Who is able to stand? No one. Those who think they are going to stop God and are shaking their fist at Him all over the world haven't a clue who and what they are dealing with.

Then I replied with:

You think no one shall be able to stand, KFC?

In v. 15, we read the reference to seven social groups embracing all mankind ranging from the highest to the lowest. It doesn't distinguish between believers and unbelievers. And there is nothing here that indicates the believers will not be there; to the contrary the seven groups indicates completeness--all mankind.
I think those believers who persevered and fought the good fight of Faith are those who shall be able to stand.

So, therefore I disagree that no one shall be able to stand and the believers will not be here.

This is the course of the eschatological process that all mankind is going to experience. "Who shall be able to stand?" Of those who dwell on earth at that time, the unbelievers will be filled with despair and that is set up against the preservation and hopeful expectancy of the faithful.
on Sep 05, 2007
NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO STAND. Here's the quote:


Lula,

I thought I made it quite clear in our comments that NO ONE will be able to stand UNLESS protected and sealed by God. I know I said it more than once over there in the last comments. Besides, I said it here as well when I said:

We see this group of what appears to be Jewish Evangelists will be sealed and protected by God himself. Without the Lord, no one would be able to stand. Only those protected and sealed will stand and be unaffected by the upcoming happenings on earth.

I said in the last blog that the question "who will be able to stand" is written so that a negative answer is expected. The answer is no one will be able EXCEPT those protected and sealed.

The question was put in there to show how bad this time will be. This will be a time of unprecedented horror unlike anything we have ever seen before. Then going right onto the next verse showing these 144,000 sealed. Otherwise they too would not be able to stand.

on Sep 06, 2007



KFC POSTS:
I thought I made it quite clear in our comments that NO ONE will be able to stand UNLESS protected and sealed by God. I know I said it more than once over there in the last comments. Besides, I said it here as well when I said:

We see this group of what appears to be Jewish Evangelists will be sealed and protected by God himself.


KFC,

I don't want to belabor this, just point something out.

Even though in the comments you did qualify your initial statement that no one would be able to stand, it still wasn't clear to me what you meant.

In the last article, my point was that the list of 7 groups meant all mankind to which you said:

"This group mentioned shows that no class or group of people are exempt. None will be so big in status they will escape this wrath from above. God is no respector of person."

Now, read again the highlighted portion of your quote...and see for yourself that you seem to say something completely opposite.







on Sep 06, 2007

APOC. 7: 1 "After these things, I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow upon the earth, nor upon the sea, nor on any tree." [/quote]

In the Jewish tradition, angels were divided into two groups. Angels of the Presence and sanctification and angels charged with controlling the forces of nature. Both kinds appear here.

This kind of gives us an impression of the storm to come. It's going to be all inclusive. We had a storm rip thru here the other night and the trees were bent over with the tops of many of them almost bent to the ground. So I can only imagine the intensity of this coming storm about to be unleashed on the unsuspecting earth. When they least expect it. Like Chist said, "when they are eating and drinking and marrying. " In other words, when life seems normal he will come. [/quote]

The angels charged with controlling nature are holding the four winds that will be released to ravage the entire earth. The world has always been full of storms, but they will increase and no where will escape them the nearer the End approaches. As KFC says, it will be all inclusive.

This could be also a reference to Daniel 7:2, to the four winds that stir up the gentile nations, these gentile nations when stirred up would "harm the land" of Israel.

APOC. 7:2
"Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the sign of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,"


Here we see something special happens to the Church before it's buffeted around with the world by these storms. An angel appears promising good by the mere fact that he appears from the sunrise, the east.

The angel carries the seal of God with which he is to mark those whom God will protect before the beginning of a new tribulation.

APOC.7:3 "Saying: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we sign the servants of our GOd in their foreheads."

Before the angels are allowed to release the winds of wrath, God demands more time to complete the identification of Christ's followers that is until we have 'sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads".

This is the 'mark' that was mentioned in the letter to the Chruch in Philadelphia in anticipation of the mark of GOd that would stand in contrast to the mark of the beast.

What St. John mentions here has its prototype in Ezekiel 9:2-7. The prophet sees how the God-fearing inhabitants of Jerusalem are marked with the letter Tau (the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet)on the forehead by an angel so that they should be saved from the judgment that which God intends to mete out on the apostate city. To have the seal on the forehead means belonging and a promise of protection. With this symbolic action, God does not promise His own that they would be saved from the storms, but kept safe in the storms while they last. St.John 17:15.

on Sep 06, 2007
Don't ask me how I came up with that configuration in the quote box. In the box within the box, the first paragraph is your quote and the next two paragraphs are my response to it.
If it doesn't make sense I can re-post.
on Sep 07, 2007
Apoc. 7:4-8 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Ruben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Aser twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Nephthali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zabulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed."



Just to quickly peruse the list we see Judah is #1. Why? He wasn't the firstborn son. He was named because the root of Jesse would come out of it. Christ would come from this line.

Reuben, first born to Jacob, is named in second place. He forfeited his place because of sexual immorality.

We see Dan is missing (Judges 18). The tribe of Dan was into idol worship so they were taken off the list. It's actually Jewish tradition that says the Anti-Christ will come out of the tribe of Dan.

Manasseh mentioned here in v6 was a replacement and is the son of Joseph. Usually when you see Manasseh you see Ephraim, his brother, named as well. Ephraim was also guilty of idol worship.


The list of the tribes is somewht differenct from the usual list which keeps the order in Genesis 29.

Yes, Christ, the Messias, came from the tribe of Judah. St.John mentions it in 5:5. There is no mention of the tribe of Dan because it fell into idolatry and presumably disappeared.

To make up the tally of twelve, the tribe of Joseph is mentioned twice--as that of Joseph and as that of Manasseh, his first-born. It's interesting that the receivers of the seal are evenly distributed over the 12 tribes of the Old Testament people of the Old COvenant.

KFC POSTS:
So who are these 144,000 sealed ones?


I say, God chose 144,000 Jews here, period.


So the 12 tribes mentioned are never used to describe the church.


The Church Fathers would certainly disagree. According to them, these 144,000 are Jews who converted and became Christians. After all that is what our Lord Jesus Christ commissioned them to do. St.Matt. 28:19-20.

The Church Fathers saw this mark as symbolizing the character that Baptism impresses upon the souls of the faithful to show that they are part of the family of God, God's children and heirs to Heaven.
The persons preserved from harm are the JEWS who converted to Christianity. Their Baptism marked them out from those who rejected Christ and were not baptized.

KFC POSTS:
Some say the 144,000 are just symbolic for all mankind. Well, why not look at it literally first before we jump onto the symbolic ship? Could it be just as it says, 144,000 people? Yes it could. So that's where we'll stay.


The number of those sealed (12 x 12 x 1000) symbolizes completeness, totality ---in this instance, a huge multitude, depicted as the New Israel. 12 x 12 x 1000 is the product of the square of the number of completion, 12, and the number of a crowd, 1000, conveys the number of the elect is complete and that they amount to a great multitude.

Many think even the naming of the 12 tribes must be understood as symbolic (Jas.1:1). In the New Isreal there is no longer any difference between Jews and Gentiles Rom. 10:12, Eph. 2:11-12. "Isreal according to the flesh" (1Cor.10:18) no longer plays a special part in the new "Isreal of God" Gal. 6:16. which is equally composed of Jews and Gentiles. So in the vision of the complete city of God in Heaven, the names of the 12 tribes are also inscribed on the gates 21:12, and the names of the 12 Apostles on the foundation stones of its walls. 21:14.

Included in this number are the descendants of Jacob who recieve Baptism, irrespective of when they do.

Obviously, no more than the 144,000 is a number of the JW, this number is not meant to be taken literally, as if only 144,000 people will attain salvation. Here we are referring to those Jews who convert to Christianity. In this scene all those of Gentile background who become Christians over the course of history are explicitly not included.

They will appear in the vision that follows.
on Sep 07, 2007
The term "Children of Israel" is a term not used for the church. It's a term always applied to the nation Israel. These are actual Jews selected for His purposes. The Apostles would not have even thought otherwise. Acts 9:15 says:

But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. “For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”


Acts 9:15 doesn't make your point. It, in fact, concerns with the Church.

Here in 9:15 Christ, in a vision, is giving directions to Ananias about what His plans are for Saul, the Pharisee, whose eyes have just been opened. He has literally seen the "Light". Our Lord calls Saul, who will be called Paul, His "chosen vessel", which is Hebraicism equivalent to "Chosen instrument". He tells Ananias how much the St.Paul will have to suffer on His account. St.Paul is being called to preach the name of Jesus and convert Gentiles, kings, and "sons of Isreal".

In spite of the exceptional manner in which God called St.Paul, He desired for him to mature in the normal way, that is, to be instructed by others and learn God's will through them. V. 19, In this case, He chose Ananias to confer Baptism on St.Paul and teach him the basics of the Christian Faith. The rest is history. Acts tells us how St.Paul fulfilled his mission, with the help of God's grace and suffering a great deal on account of His name.
on Sep 08, 2007
According to them, these 144,000 are Jews who converted and became Christians. After all that is what our Lord Jesus Christ commissioned them to do. St.Matt. 28:19-20.


No, I DO AGREE with this Lula. They are Jews but they are also Christian. So yes, these 144,000 are Jewish Christians.

The number of those sealed (12 x 12 x 1000) symbolizes completeness, totality ---in this instance, a huge multitude, depicted as the New Israel. 12 x 12 x 1000 is the product of the square of the number of completion, 12, and the number of a crowd, 1000, conveys the number of the elect is complete and that they amount to a great multitude


I don't agree with this tho. I believe it's exactly 144,000 not symbolizing anything. If we go to the OT we see many many times where numbers are called out. We see that out of Egypt came 603,000 men not including wormen and children. Do we take that as a symbol as well? If not, why do so here? Also in the NT we read in one case where 3,000 souls were saved in one day. On another day it was 5,000. Do we take that as symbolic too? Again, why not, if we do so here? We read that when Jesus died there were 120 of his followers waiting for something to happen. Again, literal or symbolic?

Here we are referring to those Jews who convert to Christianity.


I agree but I think it goes further than that. These 144,000 are sealed for the sole purpose to witness to those that are about to go thru the Wrath of God. It's like God is giving them ONE more chance for them to be saved. But even so, many will NOT listen and will still shake their fist at God.

Acts 9:15 doesn't make your point. It, in fact, concerns with the Church.


well it does concern the church I agree. The point I'm making is a distinction is being made. We see Gentiles being named, we see mighty men being named and then we see "children of Israel" being named. All will be pulled into the church as one body of believers to make up the church. I'm just making the point that the "children of Israel" ALWAYS means the Jewish People. You never see "children of Israel" describing the Gentiles. So these 144,000 are Jews only. They are NOT gentiles.







on Sep 08, 2007
No, I DO AGREE with this Lula.


I don't agree with this tho.


I agree but


Wasn't it the rock star, Meatloaf, who sang, "2 out of 3 ain't bad"?

on Sep 08, 2007
These 144,000 are sealed for the sole purpose to witness to those that are about to go thru the Wrath of God.


I don't recall reading anything thusfar that indicates what you are saying here in the part highlighted ---Re: the sole purpose of the sealing of these 144,000. Is there something coming up to indicate that?






LULA POSTS:
The number of those sealed (12 x 12 x 1000) symbolizes completeness, totality ---in this instance, a huge multitude, depicted as the New Israel. 12 x 12 x 1000 is the product of the square of the number of completion, 12, and the number of a crowd, 1000, conveys the number of the elect is complete and that they amount to a great multitude


KFC POSTS: I don't agree with this tho. I believe it's exactly 144,000 not symbolizing anything. If we go to the OT we see many many times where numbers are called out. We see that out of Egypt came 603,000 men not including wormen and children.



I'm going to stay with 144,000 as a symbolic number meaning a huge multitude an exact, total complete number...that only God knows in His salvation plan...as soon as the last person is saved, then the world will end.

This is true there are lots of numbers in the OT and this one, 603,000 that you point out is of particular interest. Why did St.John bother to list the 12 tribes of Israel when he just could of said there are 144,000 servants from the sons of Israel?

Num. 1:5-15 names the tribes of Israel leaving out the tribe of Levi becasue they were not allowed to go to war. The tribes are numbered in 20-46, which brings a total of around 603,000 rounded off of the number of men who were 20 years old and up who came out of Egypt.

As Israel of old fought its enemies with men of a select group marked by circumcision, so the Chruch today is in a war with the anti-christ forces of the world. They are marked with a seal on their forehead which symbolizes Baptism. (in keeping with this symbolism, the priest pours water on the forehead and blesses it with the sign of the Cross, in the Blessed Trinity, in Confirmation, the seal is made with chrism oil thus producing a soldier of Christ ready for battle against the world. In fact, St.John uses the perfect, passive participle of the Greek word , Sealed" which denotes a permanent sealing thus allowing it to represent an indelible mark of Baptism.

Apoc. 7:4-8 is using the same tribes and a corresponding symbolic number to illustrate the symbolic Christian Church and its war against the world. The difference between the tribes of Israel in the Old Covenant and the New Israel of the New Covenant is that the latter is in a spiritual battle, not a physical one. This 'battle' is the one St.John speaks of in 7:14 coming up. Our weapons are described in St.Paul's Eph. 6:11-17.

So, to me, the 144,000 is a symbolic number representing all those who have been Baptised and who serve Him faithfully. They have received the mark of Christ on their foreheads as opposed to the those millions and millions in Apoc. 13 who have received the "mark of the beast".



on Sep 08, 2007
I don't recall reading anything thusfar that indicates what you are saying here in the part highlighted ---Re: the sole purpose of the sealing of these 144,000. Is there something coming up to indicate that?


I misspoke Lula when I said "sole" purpose. I should have said "some" service for God. These 144,000 are Jewish christians sealed and protected for a purpose on earth. Most believe they are Jewish Evangelists. We will see them again in Chap 14. We see they were also called "firstfruits." Generally meaning that more will come after them. So the thought is these are the first of what will be many Jewish people coming to the faith during these times.

I'm going to stay with 144,000 as a symbolic number


to stay consistent with scripture, I can't take this viewpoint. We will see shortly in v9 that a "great multitude" is named. This would be so large it doesn't serve to bother even counting them. So if you're correct, why not use that description instead here for these 144,000?

Why did St.John bother to list the 12 tribes of Israel when he just could of said there are 144,000 servants from the sons of Israel?


Well first and foremost he was to write down what he saw and heard. So this is a direct revelation from God. God for some reason is pulling out an exact number of reps from each tribe mentioned for his purpose. Also maybe it has to do with the substitutions being made which we've already mentioned.

The rest of what you write of I don't agree with at all. So I'll just leave it at that.