At Mass, Catholics recite the Creed in which we make it clear that we hope for Christ's return. "Christ has died, Christ is Risen; Christ will come again." This true "blessed hope" has been central since Christ's First Advent. Our hope awaits "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" Titus 2:13.

We know He is going to return in these "last days" and that these "last days" started with His Birth. From this we can say the end is here...for the final event has already begun. His Passion, Death, and Resurrection are the supreme events in the history of mankind which has now entered its final phase.

We are living in the Millennium, the Church age, Apoc. 20:1-6, the final age of the world is already with us and Christ's Messianic kingdom, the Church, already manifests its presence. V 1-6 describe the situation in the present from the time of Jerusalem's destruction until Christ comes in glory at His Second Advent. We are still within the time frame of Daniel's final vision which also starts with the victory of CHrist coming in judgment in 70AD and ends in eternity with Daniel's final judgment. We live today between these two points; this is a description of our time. Daniel's week, 7 decades of covenantal transition are over. The 6 blessings that the Messias gained for us during Daniel's seventyu weeks are being bestowed. Dan 9:24.


Just as the judgment of Jerusalem 70AD was delayed as much as possible to allow time for more Jewish people to be saved Apoc. 7:3, there is good reason for God's delay in Christ returning. The Messianic kingdom is still receiving its sheepfold. Everyone's not ready. The sheepfold of the full number of the Gentiles and inclusion of the Jews is still gathering. In the meantime, Jesus tells us we are to "watch and pray". Catholics have the Holy Eucharist to nourish and strengthen us.


After this, the next event is not a secret rapture, but a final assault upon the Church by the forces of Satan after he is "released". 20:7 This is the time of the antichrist and Christians will be a party to this struggle as the antichrist assaults the Church. We don't know how long this time of intense tribulation will last nor do we have many details about the antichrist himself. The final battle against Gog and Magog will be a spiritual battle and will present Christians with a choice for the antichrist will do everything in his power to destroy the Church. The Catechism 675 tells us it's going to be a time of supreme religious deception, "a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and His Messias come in the flesh". Our responsibility is to endure and believe the Truth. Apoc. 13:10.

2 Thess. 2:8 tells us how the battle once Christ appears will go. Apoc. 20:9.

Here, we have finally arrived at the Second COming of our LOrd and Savior, Jesus Christ. At the Second event, all people will be resurrected. 1Cor. 15: 12-22. Whether we are dead or alive at the Second COming, we will be raised. 1Thess. 5:9-10.

Then comes the Final (General) Judgment which everyone must face. This is the one called the Great White Throne.

The wicked will be separated from God forever. They will spend eternity without any good and without GOd. St.Jude 14-15. 2Thess.1:8-10. This is the second death. Apoc. 21:8.

For those who have responded to God throughout their lives, they will experience eternal life which Jesus offered to everyone. St.John 5:24. For all eternity, Christians will live without fear of death, with no pain or tears. Apoc. 21:4. They will have glorified bodies and be in God's presence forever. 1Cor.13:12. St.Matt.5:8.

I agree with your first two paragraphs here, but your history is my future. And we only seem to go around and around with this.

You keep forgetting that Christ said...."immediately" after those days he would return. He's not here yet. That means we haven't gone thru the trib yet.

Well Lula, we've come to the point we have to agree to disagree. You keep repeating yourself and I'm probably doing the same so we have hit a wall here. Let's wait until the next entry.

KFC POSTS:


Yes, thusfar we haven't agreement as to the timing of the Millennium or on the Last Judgment.   

You asked some questions though in post #30 which deal with Daniel 9:24-27 that you quoted in your initial essay.


I'd like to address those verses 24-27 as well as your questions before we move to the next entry.




LULA POSTS:



KFC POSTS:


KFC POSTS: Now using that section you just quoted here in Daniel I have a question for you. You see Daniel had this dream and is troubled by it. He asks for an interpretation which he gets starting in v17. Out of these Kingdoms will come the anti-christ. That's the little horn you speak of. But we see this last powerful empire will have 10 horns in his head. How does this fit with Nero or Titus in AD 70? We also see that the AC subdues three of these horns (countries or powers).

Daniel's symbolic use of the 10 horns alternates between being a symbol of the 10 provinces of the empire and being a symbol of specific people. We know this type of dualistic imagery in apocalytic literature is quite common.

Daniel's vision continues with more details concerning the battle strategies of the beasts. "This horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them." 7:21. This is the first reference to "the Great Tribulation". The fierce assault and state sponsored persecution against the Church started with the "little horn", Nero,(antichrist) as I explained above.

KFC, the answer is Nero was the first in a succession of 10 Caesars who persecuted the Church with varying intensity. Daniel's vision accurately predicts the death of Nero who reigned until 68AD.

YOu also ask, We also see that the AC subdues three of these horns (countries or powers) and must be referring to Dan.7:8.

Again, the answer is in Nero (the AC of the Great Tribulation). His mother, Agrippina, married the emperor Claudius shortly after Nero was born. Nero married his stepsister, Octavia, daughter of Claudius. Agrippina convinced Claudius this new son-in-law, Nero, as his successor over his own blood son, Britannicus. After becoming emperor, Nero murdered all three of these powerful relatives whom he saw as rivals. These murders fulfill the vision of the three royal horns that 'were plucked up by the roots." 7:8.

I know about the 10 Emperors theory but I don't buy it. No surprise there huh? But I have to say I never heard of the Nero/Octavia/Agrippina slant. I'm aware of all the players but don't see how that has anything to do with the three horns. Maybe because first, I don't thing Nero's mother and sister are worthy of Daniel's notice and two, I look at the horns as Kingdoms not emperors.



where does Daniel predict this?

Also, I just have to go back to something you said about Satan being bound. When I asked you how could he be bound and yet we still be in a spiritual battle you said:



Think about what you said here. The gospel spread like wildfire in the first 30 years before the fall of Jerusalem. We see in Acts 2 that 3,000 were saved in one day. We see later 5,000 were added to the church on another day. We see Paul being able to preach to everyman in Asia. God opened doors just like he opened doors for Billy Graham now.

If anything, we're getting back into paganism and darkness more than we ever have. You rightly said we are in a spiritual battle. We are because Satan IS NOT bound. In fact, he's working right out in the open now, where before he had to be much more subtle and hidden. Now, who cares. People outright worship him today. He's in his glory.

When Christ gave the Great Commission in Matt 28, Satan wasn't bound. Nor does it say anywhere in the gospels or the epistles that he was. In fact...Peter says

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour." 2 Peter 5:8

So Peter didn't believe this to be true. Actually the Apostles were warning us that he was alive and well roaming the earth to deceive us. So, no, no bounding has taken place yet. I could give you a ton on this if you'd like, but just a skimming of the Epistles is all you need to see otherwise.

KFC WRITES:



Let's go over Daniel 9: 24-27 verse by verse from the DR.

V. 24, " Seventy weeks are shortened upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and sin may have an end, and inquity may be abolished; and everlasting justice may be brought; and vision and prophecy may be fulfilled; and to anoint a most Holy."

We've been over this one, so I won't belabor it. The vision starts with a summary of how many seasons will be under consideration. Seventy weeks or seventy times seven. They are a signal about how many seasons must pass to bestow 6 blessings. I've noted the blessings were all gained during Christ's First Advent. The coming of the Messias is one of the blessings.

v. 25, " Know thou therefore and understand: that from the going forth of the word to build up Jerusalem again unto the Messias the Prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks (69); and the street shall be built again, and the walls, in troublous times.

V. 25 gives the reader a the length of time before the "Anointed One, the Messiah arrives on the public scene. The vision declares that the time line starts with the decree to "build up Jerusalem again" (the NAB has to 'restore and rebuild" Jerusalem). When does the clock start ticking is the big question?

My DR footnotes state: "from the going forth of the word" means from the 20 year of the King Artaxerxes of Persia when by his commendment Nehemias rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem 2Esd2. From which time to the best of chronology there were just 69 weeks of years that is 483 to the Baptism of Christ, when He first began to preach and execute the public ministry of the Messias. Also, Ezra 7:11-26 has King Artaxerxes issuing the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in about 457 BC. So, the beginning point for Daniel's seventy weeks of seasons is therefore 457 BC and this makes sense.

The first set of seven weeks denotes the 49 decades from 457 BC to 32 AD and this spans the time from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem the public arrival of the Messias and the beginning of His ministry.

But we know from history that the building didn't start immediately becasue the wall was destroyed by fire. Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes to issue another decree between 446 and 444 BC which makes this the beginning of the 62 weeks in v. 26. We know the times were troubled during Nehemias's rebuilding. If we count the middle section as years, then we find the segment ends at about 10 BC and that meets the criteria for this second segment mentioned in V. 26, "it must be end before the Messias is cut off".

The years from 444BC to 10BC saw plenty of "troubled times". First the Persians, then ALexander the Great, the Ptolemies of Egypt, the Seleucids of Syria conquered Jerusalem. We can't forget in 168, Antiochus Epiphanes (another type of antichrist) who profaned the Temple with the pigs in honor of Zeus 1Macc.1 44-59. the Jews rebelled and by 165 the priestly family of Hasmonians had prevailed in the war and the Temple was reconcecrated by Judas Machabee. The Jewish nation won complete independence by 142 BC.

That peace and tranquility lasted only until the infighting between the Pharisees and the Sadducees enabled Pompey to conquer Jerusalem with a Roman army in 63 BC. IN 37 BC, the Romans installed Herod the Great as king of the Jews. In 20BC, he reconstructed the Temple in a massive way. This was still the 2nd Temple, the Temple of Zerubbabel being finally completed for glory.

Herod's reconstruction project added annexes andadjoining buildings and was still under construction until about 63AD. Herod's Temple the cumulation of Zerubbabels efforts was fnally completed in 10BC. The Jews who spoke of the 46 year project in St.John 2:20 were including the annexes and adjoining buildings. So, KFC, you can't ask for a more accurate fulfillment of Daniel's middel 62 weeks of seasons. They began in 444BC and ended in 10BC, 434 years (62 weeks) later.

V. 26 "And after threescore and two weeks (62) Messiah shall be cut off (slain): and the people that shall deny Him shall not be his. And a people with their prince (leader) that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end the appointed desolations."

The Temple had been completed in 10BC and the 49 decades of the first set of weeks ended around 32 AD. We know Christ was cut off by His death on the Cross. Daniel learns the Temple will be destroyed and is related to the Messias' death. After the Messias' death, an evil people destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Think the parallel: the Messiah will come; the Temple will be rebuilt. The Messias is slain; the Temple will be destroyed. But when is what Daniel only hinted.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, a generation within Jesus time, that Jesus, Himself warned about when He prophesied, Would that even today you knew the things that make for peace. But now they are hid from your eyes. For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and dash you to the ground, you and your children within you. and you will not leave one stone upon another in you: becasue you did not know the time of your visitation." St.Luke 19: 41-44. Jerusalem was destroyed becasue the Messias was "cut off".

KFC, have you ever read the historian Josephus who wrote an eye-witness account of the Jewish-Roman War entitled "War of the Jews"?
I haven't but have excerpts from the book telling what went on inside Jerusalem is unbelievable. He writes that the Prince was Christ and that the Prince didn't destroy the city but that His people do. The Jewish people destroyed the city from the inside while the ROmans ravaged all else. Traditional thought even today teaches that Herod's Temple was destroyed becasue of sinat hinam, which is hatred without cause. The Jewish people turned on one another for no reason, and that was the cause of the Temple's destruction. Other sources have the people with their leader as the Romans under Titus which we know is also the case. Very interesting, yes, no?

So the timeline of Daniel's vision means the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple occurred at the very end of the seventy sevens. Daniel links the war over Jerusalem as the time of 'the end'. Which is in Jewish thought becasue the destruction meant the end of biblical Judaism after which the new kingdom the Messias set up was unencumvered to grow...and it did.

Now to your specific question re: v. 27: KFC POSTS: We know from Daniel 9:27 that a covenant will be broken right? How does this come into play in the past as well? What covenant was broken in the past? Nero was dead.

V. 27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: (7years) and in the half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and there shall be in the temple abomination of desolation, and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end."

We've come to the last week of Daniel. Here, Daniel's vision doesn't end in despair. He goes back to the and tells the Messias' activities during the six blessings. It begins with the Incarnation around 4 BC. and spans the 7 decades to 67-70AD. This is the time of covenantal transition which I've written over and over again.

Christ will make a strong covenant that will put a halt to the Temple sacrifices during this one week. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many" this is the New COvenant which Christ made with His Blood. Isaias called it everlasting. 55:3. Jeremias spoke of it. 31:31, 33. So did Ezekiel 37:26. The new and everlasting New Covenant is linked to the death of the Messias. Which is when the Temple veil was rent from top to bottom. The Old Covenant was completed in the New. Daniel writes that half way through the last week of the seven decades, the Messias caused the animal sacrifices of the OLd COvenant to cease by sacrificing Himself which brought about the New Covenant in His Blood.

Here, Hebrews 10:11-12 comes to mind. Placing the end of the 70th week at 67-70 AD means that when Daniel refers to events about halfway through the 70th week, he is referring to something that happened around 32AD which is close enough to Christ's Passion and Pentecost which is the birth of the Church. (Scholars base Christ's birth around 4-5 BC and His Passion around 28-30AD.)

The end of v. 27, Daniel tells that at the end of the seven decades the desolator will come. Josephus, the historian I already mentioned, wrote the Jewish people thought the last part of this prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. Josephus recorded, that Daniel wrote about the empire of the Romans and that Jerusalem would be desolated by them." St.Luke 21 agrees.

V. 25 gives the reader a the length of time before the "Anointed One, the Messiah arrives on the public scene. The vision declares that the time line starts with the decree to "build up Jerusalem again" (the NAB has to 'restore and rebuild" Jerusalem). When does the clock start ticking is the big question?

March 14, 445 BC according to many sources including the Encylopedia Britannica.

in about 457 BC. So, the beginning point for Daniel's seventy weeks of seasons is therefore 457 BC and this makes sense.

well I guess we disagree on the dates. When Sir Robert Anderson figured all this out he came up with from the date of 445 right to the time that Jesus entered Jerusalem before his crucifixion, Luke 19. It also is the day the Jews plotted his death. He figured this out by doing the math. He multiplied 483 by 360 days (Jewish year) and came up with a total number of days 173,880.

So the first period is 445-396 BC. The second period is 396-April 6, 32AD.

But we know from history that the building didn't start immediately becasue the wall was destroyed by fire. Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes to issue another decree between 446 and 444 BC which makes this the beginning of the 62 weeks in v. 26. We know the times were troubled during Nehemias's rebuilding. If we count the middle section as years, then we find the segment ends at about 10 BC and that meets the criteria for this second segment mentioned in V. 26, "it must be end before the Messias is cut off".

never heard of any of this. The only date I go by is the date in Nehemiah 1:1 which is March 445.

So, KFC, you can't ask for a more accurate fulfillment of Daniel's middel 62 weeks of seasons. They began in 444BC and ended in 10BC, 434 years (62 weeks) later

Nope, March 14, 445 BC to April 6 32 AD. Now I'd say that's pretty accurate. In fact it says right in Daniel 9:26 that it ends with the cutting off of the Messiah. Your date of 10 BC makes no sense with this.

So the timeline of Daniel's vision means the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple occurred at the very end of the seventy sevens. Daniel links the war over Jerusalem as the time of 'the end'

How do you figure? Let me break it down for ya. I don't see the end of Jerusalem as the end of the 70th week here.

9:26-After threescore and two weeks ( (62) shall Messiah be cut off (32AD) but not for himself; and the people of the prince (Anti Christ 7:8)that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (70AD-end of Jerusalem)

9:27-And he (Anti-Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7years) and in the middle (3 1/2 yrs) of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ will make a strong covenant that will put a halt to the Temple sacrifices during this one week. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many"

no this doesn't make sense. Look again. The covenant will be confirmed one week only (7yrs). This sounds nothing like the New Covenant you're speaking of. Besides, this covenenant will be broken during the halfway point...it's the AC who makes and breaks the covenant...not Christ. Besides how can you make sense of this with the destruction of Jerusalem coming FIRST and then the covenant that will be broken during the halfway period SECOND. Jerusalem is gone so it's useless to break off the sacrificial system right? The only answer is that the temple will be rebuilt again and this will come true in the future end times. This is close to a reality Lula. What are you going to say when the temple is built again?

Placing the end of the 70th week at 67-70 AD means that when Daniel refers to events about halfway through the 70th week, he is referring to something that happened around 32AD which is close enough to Christ's Passion and Pentecost which is the birth of the Church. (Scholars base Christ's birth around 4-5 BC and His Passion around 28-30AD.)

None of this makes any sense with a seven year period. You have dates here all over the place. Remember it's a seven year period. Again, we can see by looking at the two verses above that the end of the 70th week is NOT the destruction of the temple but nearer to the abomination of desolation that Christ spoke of in Matt 24:15 which is the halfway period of the trib.

KFC POSTS:


Re: the 10BC date, I wrote:

LULA POSTS:

And then I followed with this:


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LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

There is no textual justification to wrench apart Daniel's time periods with a 2,000 year time span between the 69th and 70th week. This is done to place Daniel's final, lone set of seven as a seven year Great Tribulation that is still in the future!!

I see the time segments in v. 24-27 joined together in conformity with what we now know as fulfilled events. Daniel's 70th week describes the abomination of desolation in v. 27b as the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem in 70AD. The time of great persecution leading up to and including the 3 and a half year Jewish-Roman destruction of Jerusalem was the Great Tribulation. Nero was the 666 Antichrist and after he died his people finished the job.

St.Luke certainly didn't see any gap time between the 69th and 70th weeks. St.Luke testifies that the prophecy of Daniel was accomplished at the time when Jerusalem was overthrown. St.Luke uses practically the same words as Daniel. 21:20,24 "And when you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army (Titus); then you shall know that the desolation thereof is at hand. 24 ANd they shall fall by the edge of the sword; and shall be led away captives into all nations (Jewish dispersion that followed the destruction of Jerusalem), and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles (the Roman army); till the times of the nations be fulfilled."

This is how I figure seeing the end of Jerusalem at the end of Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel teaches the timing and meaning of CHrist's First Coming. What Daniel predicted all happened:
-----the Roman Empire would be in power when the Messias came.
-----the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its Temple as a precondition for the Messiah to come (His First Advent).
-----6 tremendous blessings will be received into His kingdom, the Church.
-----Our Lord's death.
-----the establishment of a New strong Covenant.
-----The Great Tribulation of Christ's fledgling Church.
-----The destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, and biblical Judaism.
------The confirmation of the New strong Covenant.
Daniel's prophecies have all happened.

KFC POSTS:

Apoc. 20:1-3, 7 deals with Satan being bound and when he is and when he is loosed.

Here it is by verse.
1 “And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he could no more seduce the nations, till the thousand years be finished. And after that, he must be loosed a little time. 4 And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years shall be finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth, and seduce the nations, which are over the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, and shall gather them together to battle the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.”
To start I would suggest to you that by v 3, “that he could no more seduce the nations” implies that Satan was at some point before this unbound. From this we can understand that Satan was unbound from the time of Adam and Eve’s Original Sin up until the beginning of the “thousand years” which is when the angel binds him.


This brings us to the interpretation of “the thousand years” aka the “Millennium”. I believe the “thousand years” is not a literal length of time, rather a long period of time that begins with Christ’s First Advent and extends to the end of time which is also His Second Coming. So, to me, Satan was unbound from the day of Original Sin up until Christ’s Death and Resurrection when Christ overcame death and redeemed us from sin.

Before Christ died, He established His new kingdom, the Church, that would be under the New and everlasting Covenant, to carry out His mission (to gather and feed His sheep) and this mission is to go on until the end of time under the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. The time given for this mission is the “thousand years”, the Millennium which also signifies the present Church age. Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords, is with His Saints in Heaven ( v.4), reigning over His new kingdom during the “thousand year “ Church age.

St.Augustine interprets the first resurrection to represent redemption and the call to the Christian life through Baptism which regenerates man and gives him new life by freeing him from Original Sin and actual sin and making him a son of God; the reign of Christ and His saints represents the Church and her apostolic work upon earth, as referred to in St.Matt. 28.

The “thousand years” signify the whole duration of the Church and during this time there is spiritual combat between Christ and His Church against Satan and the powers of evil. This battle can be described in 2 scenes.

The first is described in v. 1-3. Satan, the dragon, the ancient serpent and devil, is bound for a thousand years, which is the here and now, the Church age, the Millennium that will last until the end of time, however long that takes only God knows. You say, how can Satan be bound pointing there is plenty of real evidence that he’s busy at work. It’s true, and yet, Satan is very limited in that he’s been brought and kept under control from being able to use all his evil power to deceive nations. During this period the activity of the devil is restricted and man is able to elude him. St.Augustine writes, “although he desires to do us harm, he cannot do so because his power is subject to an other’s power... He who gives him the ability to tempt, also gives His mercy to the one who is tempted. He has restricted the devil’s ability to tempt people.” On this, the Cure of Ars wrote, “”the devil is a big dog on a chain, who threatens and makes a lot of noise, but who only bites those who go to near him.”


The second, v. 3b, 7 describe his last and final assault on the Church for a “little time” V. 4 describes a thousand years a period in which Satan is held captive and coincides with the reign of Christ and His Church and contrasts with the “little time” during which Satan is loosed to act his evil. V. 7 Satan is loosed at the end of the Church age. That’s what we mean when we say, “All Hell breaks loose.”

There is no textual justification to wrench apart Daniel's time periods with a 2,000 year time span between the 69th and 70th week.

Actually there is justification as this can be seen elsewhere. Let me give you a few examples of a gap period.

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given: And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In the first part of v6 a gap of at least 20 centuries is separated by a colon. The phrase "unto us a son is given" refers to Bethlehem, while the words "and the government shall be upon his shoulder" look forward to the millennium."

Zechariah 9:9-10

9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim And the horse from Jerusalem; The battle bow shall be cut off. He shall speak peace to the nations; His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.’

V9 is a clear reference to the triumphal entry of Christ, but verse 10 looks ahead to the millennium.

Isaiah 61:1-2

1 “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,

In v2 Christ's earthly ministry (to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord) and the tribulation (the day of vengeance of our God) are separated by only a comma!! It is extremely important to note that when Jesus read this passage during his sermon (Luke 4:18-19) he ended the reading at this comma, for "the day of vengeance" was not the purpose of his first coming.

St.Luke certainly didn't see any gap time between the 69th and 70th weeks. St.Luke testifies that the prophecy of Daniel was accomplished at the time when Jerusalem was overthrown. St.Luke uses practically the same words as Daniel. 21:20,24

I agree. Luke was writing about the 70AD destruction here so nothing about Daniel's later prophecy although these same warnings apply to the tribulation days when AC demands to be worshipped.

Going back to Matt 24:21 we see Jesus said there shall be a GREAT TRIBULATION unlike anything since the beginning of the world.

Now how can you honesty say this fits with 70AD after Noah's flood say for example? Jerusalem had been destroyed MANY times and when Nebuchadnesser took Jerusalem in three stages back in 605-586 BC he burned everything to the ground then as Titus did later. Daniel was carried away into captivity as well as Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Isaiah. How can you put AD 70 on a higher scale than this and call it the Great Tribulation like no other? Makes no sense.

Also think about Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC. He was an anti-semite who desecrated the altar big time. He slaughtered a pig on the altar and when all was said and done 40,000 Jews lay dead. He forced the priests to drink a broth made from the slaughtered pig. He was a figure of the upcoming AC but he was one of many.

No, the future Tribulation will be world wide and will be unlike anything else we've ever seen and as we go thru Revelation we'll see this to be true.

Before Christ died, He established His new kingdom

this directly contradicts his words...."My kingdom is no part of this world."

Satan is very limited in that he’s been brought and kept under control from being able to use all his evil power to deceive nations. During this period the activity of the devil is restricted and man is able to elude him

This isn't true. He's only limited because.......... "greater is He that is in you, than he (Satan) who is in the world."

Everything in the NT points that Satan is free to decieve at whim but he's limited with those that are Christ's because the HS does limit him. If he's bound, he's only bound when it comes to those that profess Christ. He's lost his grip on them.

LULA POSTS:

There is no contradiction here. The new kingdom Christ established is to be of the world, not in the world.


God rules in the midst of His people. The Church is the realization on earth of God's Messianic kingdom, the final fulfillment of which is in eternity. St.Matt.4:24 tells us that Jesus "went about all Galilee..preaching the gospel of the kingdom." He was teaching a reality that was part of the Messianic hopes of the Jews. These hopes centered upon a kingdom that the Messias would establish. In His teaching, Christ was always careful to free the idea of a the "Kingdom" from the nationalistic hopes of His Jewish hearers.

To understand the bond between the kingdom of GOd on earth and the Church, we can consider what Jesus taught about His kingdom.

Like the reign of God, the kingdom is spiritual and will be perfected in the last days. It's not a political kingdom, yet His kingdom is planted in this world. Christ shows it to us as something visible, a community called together by Him and of which He is the Good Shepherd. St.Jn. 10:11-16.

In one of His parables, the kingdom of God is likened to a mustard seed, which tiny at first grows until it becomes a large tree in which the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches." St.Matt. 13:32.

To explain the kingdom He told another parable of someone who sows good seed in a field. At night the enemy comes and sows weeds. In the kingdom both the good and evil are allowed to grow until the harvest. For everyone must have abundant opportunity to be saved. 13:24-30.

He also said that the kingdom is like a net laid down into the sea. The net gathers all kinds of things, good and bad. At the Judgment, the angels will separate the good from the bad and Christ makes clear there will be a Judgment. 13:47-52.

LULA POSTS:

KFC,

You’ve noticed that I’m a stickler about your using the terminology “the Great Tribulation” as meaning a future 7 year event from which Rapturists believe they will be ‘snatched’ away before it begins.

“The great tribulation” which Christ prophecied in St.Matt. 24:21 refers to their immediate future lasted nearly 7 years and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD.

The Great Tribulation which Jesus predicts here in St. Matt. 24:21 has already come to pass. Why was this “the Great-e-s-t Tribulation”? Because this is the first century--the very beginning of the Church which was at first looked upon as a sect within Judaism. The forces from 64AD that were against the fledgling Church were formidable. For 3 years during the Nero’s persecution, the Romans fed Christians to hungry lions and this was followed by the 3 and one-half year Jewish Roman War. The vulnerable Church survived further persecution by the Jewish and Roman authorities only because of God’s merciful intervention, "the days were shortened” 24:22. The Church would have died in its cradle if the political dynasties of Nero and later of the next Roman emperor, Vespasian, had succeeded or if the Jewish Christians had not followed Jesus’ advice and fled to the mountains and escaped to Pella.


To understand verse 21 when Jesus said these words, “the great tribulation”, we must go back to the beginning of Chapter 24 and understand that Jesus prophecy is an answer to 2 questions that His disciples ask Him. Tell us “when will this be” and “what will be the sign of Your coming and of the close of the age?” 24:3. In response, Jesus predicts 8 signs to warn His followers of a great tribulation about to break over them and promises “the coming of the Son of man within this generation”. The term “this generation” refers to the people who were alive at the time of the speaker.

We know this becasue during the discussion Jesus speaks in the second person, ‘you’. St.Matt. 24:9, 15, 20, 25, 32, 33 , 34. He meant the generation of those hearing Him. The same is true in the parallel passages of St.Luke 21: 20-24 and St. Mark 13:9. (KFC, interestingly enough, you agree that St.Luke applies to 70AD).

What is so significant about these 2 questions is the reliability of Jesus’ first answer gives us confidence in His second answer which is still unfilfilled. Remember 24:1-2, Jesus had said the Temple would be destroyed stone by stone, and the 1st question the disciples ask is ‘When will this be?” The 2nd question was “what will be the sign of your coming and the close of the age?” I accept that Jesus answered those questions one at a time in order that they were asked. St.John Chrysostom wrote this of Christ’s different answers. “When the Lord had finished all that related to Jerusalem, He came in with the rest to His own Coming.”

In my view, St.Matt. 24: 4-35, St.Mark 13:1-31 and St.Luke 21: 5-33 answer the question of when the Temple will be destroyed ..and...since Jesus said so, all the details of the 1st question will be fulfilled in “this generation” that is the generation of Jesus’ time of prophecy.

St.Matt. 24: 36-44, St.Mark 13: 32-37 and St. Luke 17: 22-37 answers the second question.



Yes, absolutely yes, Christ’s words stand as a prophetic event of a final tribulation of the Church...and yes, the events surrounding 70AD act as a prophecy pointing to the Second Coming. However, they shouldn’t be used as a prediction of something still in the distant future as a 7 year Great Tribulation. I don’t see anywhere in Jesus’ teaching of a secret Rapture preceeding a 7 year Great Tribulation and no mention of a separate millennial reign of Jesus as Messiah after the judgment.