When we get further into the Book of Apocaplyse you'll see it speaks of the Temple as the Chruch (spritual Temple) and as us, we are the Temple too.

no, I'm going to show you (when we get there) that this temple is literal...just like Ezekiel described in his book. Remember if it makes sense.....seek no other sense. What you're doing here Lula is spiritualizing something that was meant to be taken literally.

but his public chaining occurred when the Temple of Jerusalem fell. From here on Christ rules with his saints over a world-wide spiritual kingdom

What scripture are you using to back this up with?

The Millennium is the present Church age in which Christ is reigning in the Church Temple and in the Temple of our body. The secret Rapture idea is simply a token of a falsly spiritualized note notion of believers.

You have a double sided argument here. On one hand you say we are spiritualizing with the rapture but you're doing the same thing with the Millennium...which is to be a literal 1,000 year reign.

We are in the last days now..Christ founded His kingdom during the First Advent; it's the Church.

now this I can agree with.

The 7 year Great Tribulation has already occurred and ended at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Daniel's timeline has already been fulfilled. Today, the Chruch and yes, believers are going through trial, tribulation and persecution. Our faith is being tested. It's a fire and we are being purified. Some will fall away. Worse times are ahead

This is from the preterist POV which you know Lula I reject...what verse can you pinpoint to the seven year tribulation has already been fulfilled?

Yes, Satan is bound to the point that this is the time where conversion is still ongoing.

Believe me....if Satan were bound......there would be a whole lot more conversion going on.

This is a spiritual battle

WAIT A MINUTE.....WAIT A MINUTE.....How can we be in a spiritual battle when Satan is bound? This is a real lulu Lula.

God will cause all men, the living and the dead to be summoned to the Last Judgment. All of us, everyone everywhere, will come before Christ at the Last Judgment. Scripture tells the order of the who, the how and where this will occur.

Nope. Don't buy this at all...but you'll see when we get closer to that. No sense to hit this now...it's off the path of 4:1.

There is no time that Scripture allows for a silent or secret coming of Christ to Rapture or take up believers. The Rapture is an unbiblical concept.

Really? Pretty Dogmatic? Well consider these points.

The Rapture:

1. Christ comes in the air (1 Thess 4:16-17)
2. He comes FOR his saints (1 Thess 4:16-17)
3. The rapture is a mystery, ie a truth unknown in OT times (1 Cor 15:51)
4. The rapture takes place in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:52). This strongly implies that it will not be witnessed by the world.
5. The rapture is presented as a time of blessing (1 Thess 4:18)

We know that the Jews were expecting their Messiah. He was to come to the earth and set up an earthly kingdom. That's what they wrote about all thru the OT starting with Moses. That's why they rejected Christ. He did not do as expected. That's why Paul told us this was a mystery. Now they knew he was coming so what could the mystery be? It had to be something unknown to them prior right? Here Paul is saying, he is coming but he's coming for his own and they will be "caught up" which is NOT written in the OT. Besides, how can they find comfort in Paul's words if they were going to experience the "wrath of God" during the Great Tribulation?

Now for the "second coming."

1. He comes TO the earth (Zech 14:4) (not in the air)
2. He comes WITH his saints (1 Thess 3:13, Jude 14) We see in Thess he came with his angel. No mention of saints.
3. This revelation is not a mystery; it is the subject of many OT prophecies (Ps 72, Isaiah 11; Zech 14).
4. The coming will be visible worldwide (Matt 24:27; Rev 1:7) unlike the rapture
5. The main emphasis of this coming will be judgment (2 Thess 2:8-12)

The time of the Chruch blessing is known as the Millennium. St.John describes the Chruch age in Apoc. 20:1-6.

What? We're not in the church age now? I'm not going ahead here but it's not the church age in view here in 20:1-6 Lula. We're in the church age right now. 20:1-6 is immediately after the tribulation when Christ comes to set up the Kingdom that the Jews have been waiting for ALL these years. Just as a side note....did you notice it says: "first resurrection" in v5? So that would mean there's more than one isn't there? We'll get there eventually.

It's so interesting becasue in Scripture the symbolic meaning bears more importance than the literal numerical value. We see this throughout Scripture and I'm sure KFC agrees.

No Lula. All the groups out there have diff "spiritual" meanings for what should be taken literally. So who's right? I know I know....the Catholics right? But if you ask a JW or an Adventist, they'd strongly disagree with you......their symbols make much more sense to them. I'm saying....they are not symbols. they are literal....although the book of Revelation does have symbols but the symbols stand for something that we can immediatly verify using the rest of scripture to unlock it's meaning.

Scripture states that God owns cattle on a thousand hills. Are we going to start identifying which hills are those exact thousand?

Lula, this is poetry and meant to be read as such. You're reading from Psalms. Like I said...if it makes sense....seek no other sense.

BTW Lula.....you have10 as the day of completion? As far as I know, it's always been 7. Always seen as a complete or perfect number. Seven days of creation. Seven days of the week. Seventy weeks of Daniel, Seven Seals, Seven Scrolls, Seven Bowls, etc.

Alot of people do things with numbers. I don't really get into that game.

Consider the idea that your body is the Temple and Christ hasn't been gone at all...He is here in the Spirit just as He said He would be.

Yes, but why did he tell them in John 14:1-3....I go and prepare a place for you and will come back to take you there? Many believe this is the first mention of the rapture here. Whatever...it's literal, not spiritual. Nothing about judgment is said. Judgment is absent and only for the unbelievers. For the believers they have passed from death to life (so said Jesus) when they came to faith.

The apex of the new temple reaches into heaven , while on earth.

my first thought here Lula, was the tower of Babel. It's not about us reaching to heaven. It's all about God reaching down to earth.

lula posts:

What I meant by that is that Satan is bound now in such a way he can't stop the proclamation of the Gospel. St. Matt. 28

That's why the world isn't swallowed up in paganism and total darkness. Devil hasn't been able to stop the spread of Christianity. Remember, sin comes by way of the flesh, the world and the devil.


The timeline according to the C. Church is quite different from that of the Rapturists.

At the end of the Church age, there'll be a period of deception and greater persecution of the Church as the devil is freed to deceive nations. The persecution will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity" in the form of religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the Truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the antichrist, a pseudo messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God. Christians will be terribly persecuted at the hands of the antichrist just as they have at the hands of his forerunners.

The Church is going to suffer great tribulation that's going to shake the faith of many believers. The Chruch is going to enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final passover when she will follow her Lord in His death and Resurrection Apoc. 19:1-9.

Contrary to the Rapture theory, Christians will not be spared the tribulation.

The Kingdom will be fulfilled by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil which will cause His Bride to come down from heaven.

The full inclusion of the Jews in the Messias's salvation in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles will occur.

The dead will be raised (resurrected) on the last day at the end of the world in close association with CHrist's Second Coming. In the resurrection, the body will be reunited with the soul.

Christ will return to earth in glorious triumpth to judge the living and the dead. Those alive in Christ will "go up" and those dead in Christ will go with Satan and his allies and be thrown into the everlasting fire.

In the consummation of all things, God's kingdom and the world will be transformed into a "new heavens and a new earth"...the Saints will reign with Christ and be glorified in body and soul, and will enjoy perfect fellowship face to face with God for eternity.

LULA POSTS:

The Great Tribulation started with Daniel 7:21, "This horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them". The leader (Caesar Nero) of the fourth kingdom, Rome, will persecute the Infant Church, God's people with varying intensity.

This persecution of the Infant Church started when the "little horn", Nero, needed a scapegoat for the fire that ravaged the city of Rome. The state-sponsored persecution last for approximately 3 years until Nero's attention was diverted by the Jewish-Roman War.

In Daniel 7:25, we are told the length of time during which the little horn will wage war against "the law". It will be "for a time, two times and half a time". The "little horn" who had been making war with the saints now turned his wrath to the law that forbade worship of him. This happened when the Jewish zealots killed the high priest Ananias and burned his palace and put an end to the morning and evening sacrifices for Nero in the Temple. the war upon the war and the law lasted 3 and a half years.

Nero declared war against Jerusalem in February of 67AD. This was the beginning of the Jewish Roman War. By April of 70 AD, Titus began the final siege of Jerusalem. The Roman army came from the north just as Ezekiel 38 and 39 had predicted. In Aug. of 70AD, the Temple of Jerusalem fell which ended biblical Judaism. Their exclusive power to share God with the nations was gone forever with the destruction of the Temple. Is. 2:2-5, 56.

Just as Daniel predicted, Nero declared war in Feb. of 67 and Jerusalem's Temple fell in August of 70AD. Count the months. The Jewish Roman War lasted 42 months precisely 3 and a half years.

Put this together with Nero's earlier persecution and we have the Infant Chruch going through the Great Tribulation. It ended with Daniel's 70th week--the destruction of Jerusalem when the 7 year tribulation has been fulfilled.

Daniel gives us an amazing amount of detail concerning the establishment of GOd's kingdom here on earth. We know from his first statue vision it would occur during the fourth empire, the time of the Roman Empire. Now, we know he predicted some of the events around the reign of Nero including the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Remember that Jesus said that Daniel's Son of man would come in judgment during the Sanhedrin's generation. Well, the destruction of Jerusalem was the 'coming in judgment' of Daniel 7 and St.Matt. 26. It occurred before the close of the first century. There was only one event that occurred during the judgment of the Sanhedrin that would show them Christ was their Judge. The public event that showed the coming in clouds of Christ in victory was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and instigated by Nero. Christ judged Jerusalem with Titus' army. It was a public judgment that proved to all mankind that Jesus was victor in Heaven over His enemies on earth (as He had already ascended into Heaven; He judged from there). So this prophecy has already been fulfilled.
Jesus fulfilled Daniel's Son of man prophecy while in Heaven.

Daniel's 70th week is a far cry from and thousands of years before Christ's Second Coming. You cannot place the second half of Daniel's vision in the future. You also can't claim that the fourth kingdom is going to be reconstituted after 2,000 years and counting, and would still be the same kingdom. C'mon--that's grasping at straws, yet that's what Rapturists want us to believe.

There is no future 7 year Great Tribulation; it's already happened and I just gave you the verse and scenario.

Remember Jesus quoted Daniel 7:13 at His trial before the Sanhedrin? He told them they'd see the day when He would come to judge them, didn't He? Why is the Son of man coming here? To Judge. From Heaven, Jesus judged the Sanhedrin at the destruction of Jerusalem with Titus' Army. If you want to justify a still future 7 year Great Tribulation, you're forced to believe that on the eve of His Crucifixion, Jesus made a promise to the Sanhedrin, but His timing was off some 2,000 years and counting? That's what you call the parenthesis...the 'lull'.

Rapturists split every one of Daniel's visions this way destroying the total unity to justify or substantiate the future 7 year Great Tribulation..you know the one that born again believer's will be 'Raptured' snatched away from. Yah right? What a farciful fancy that is.

Anyway, it's late and today is the Fourth of July. So you'll be the first one I wish a happy and safe Fourth. May God's many blessings be upon you and your family.

Don't forget the Seven perfect Sacraments!

Oh this is funny. You say, it's not about us reaching to Heaven? Of course it is. We raise our eyes to heaven in prayer don't we? We send up our petitions. That what I'm getting at. Don't we reach up to Heaven for vengeance and justice? Or course we do. When we think of God the Father, we look up toward heaven.

The more we discuss, the more I come to think of Protestantism as so one-dimensional.

The apex of the new temple....think not of the tower of Babel , but of those huge white Protestant church steeples pointing up....c'mon where's your imagination?

LULA POSTS:

We read in Daniel, as well as in St. Matt 24 :1-20 the prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem which was exactly fulfilled. And since 70 AD is history, we know what happened....the fledgling Church grew and the Gospel was/will be preached to all nations.

LULA POSTS:


KFC, you seem to admit this yourself in this quote:



and then you offer this:



The following is what other dispensationalists would say to those Scriptural passages you provide as food for thought on supporting the principle behind the secret Rapture theory.

Carl Olson, an expert on Dispensational Protestantism admits that the secret Rapture theory is not taught in Scripture, nor is it's principle. Olson says, "Although many BIblical references are used to support it, the pretribulational rapture has no basis in Scripture. In fact, prominent dispensationalists admit that no clear and obvious scriptural support exists for this belief.

Olson goes on and quotes none other than Tim LaHaye, author of Left Behind. He writes, "LaHaye acknowledges this fact, ironically, at the start of a chapter titled, "Who Says It's Obscure?"

"One objection to the pre-tribulation rapture is that no one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second COming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no passage teaches a post tribulation or mid tribulation, either."

John Walvoord admits the same thing in his first edition of "The Rapture Question" which was taken out in later editions. Walvoord lists no passage from Scripture explicitly teaching the pretribulational rapture for the simple reason that none exists.

So if what I said seems dogmatic, then so be it. LaHaye seems to agree!

LULA POSTS:


St.John 20:1-6 is indeed speaking of the Church age which is the kingdom age---the "thousand years". We are presently living in the Church age, the Millennium.

Above, I said the time of the Church blessing is the Millennium, the "thousand years". Daniel states that the purpose of the 70 weeks is to bestow six blessings. The 70 weeks are decreed to "finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy". All of these six blessings were bestowed as a result of Christ at His First Advent. Daniel has been fulfilled.

The NT confirms that all six benefits of the 70 weeks have been bestowed by Christ through His Passion. Yet, Rapturists claim this isn't so. Why? to hold up the secret Rapture. If these blessings were bestowed by Christ in His First Coming then Daniel's 70th week is also history. If Daniel's weeks are completed, then Rapturists have no basis for a future 7 year Great Tribulation from which they perceive they'll be "snatched" away. If there is no 7 year Great Tribulation, there is no need for a secret Rapture.


Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks clearly point to Christ's First Advent and it's blessings. Daniel's last week denotes 7 "seasons" or decades which went from about 4BC to 67-70AD. The seven decades of covenantal transition go from the Annunciation to the destruction of Jerusalem's (Herod's) Temple. This is the period in which Christ was born, His Passion, Death and Resurrection. When Christ established the New and Everlasting Covenant. It was also the time of covenantal transition as well as the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD.

St.John's Apocalypse is also a series of visions describing the seven decades of covenantal transition as well.

It is as you say though, we'll get into this later.

**shudders** BAC's   

I always understood 7 as "perfect" and 10 as "complete". Combinations of numbers as well as multiples is supposed to mean something. This sort of thing was certainly significant to the early Hebrews.

Are you serious about this? Do you really think that believers won't be judged at the end of the world at the Last Judgment? If so, you have a really radical sense of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fides.

The Apostle's Creed says He will come again to judge the living and the dead, right?

If you really believe that Judgment is absent and only for unbelievers, then what does St.Matt. 24:31-46 mean especially v. 32 which says "before Him will be gathered all nations"? I see no exclusion for any one at all.


Jesus sits on the throne as Judge of the living and the dead and separates the sheep from the goats and places one at His right side and the other on His left. All this reads to me as though we are all going to be judged on the degree and quality of our love. All are going to have to give an account not only for the evil we have done but also for the good that we have omitted.

Our body is a Temple according to 1Cor.6:19-20. "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?...So glorify God in your body."

Scripture likens the Blessed Mother Mary as the new ark of the covenant. Her body was actually the physical home of GOd the Son for nine months during her pregnancy. It was a Temple for sure.






St.John 14:1-3 is referring to the mansions in Heaven. The only time that Scripture refers to Jesus as coming back is at the end of the world at His Second Coming. At that time, everyone will body and soul however, in a spiritual state, in which they will either spend in Heaven or Hell.

This isn't about the secret Rapture. This is where 1 Thess 4:17 applies, “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord......"

“shall be taken together with them” that is those elect who have just risen from the dead in the general resurrection. St.Paul tells them that those who are alive, who are left, will be caught up, that is changed, made from being corruptible and mortal to being incorruptible and immortal, and together with those elect who have just risen from the dead, will be taken in the clouds to meet Christ in the air. So, all the good, all the elect, will be carried on the clouds in splendor and great glory by the holy angels to the place of judgment.

Wow Lula, no way I have the time to respond to every comment here. I'll pick and choose ok?

If you really believe that Judgment is absent and only for unbelievers, then what does St.Matt. 24:31-46 mean especially v. 32 which says "before Him will be gathered all nations"? I see no exclusion for any one at all.

Too long to even go into this here. But this is NOT the judgment as in Revelation, Great White Throne Judgment. This is AFTER the tribulation, when he comes back (second coming). Premillenarians contrast this judgment to other judgments in scripture. This is different than the judgment of the wicked dead resurrected at the judgment of the Great White Throne which occurs at the end of the Millennium.

The judgment here is not of all men but of living Gentiles. There is no evidence that this judgment is of ALL men as it deals only with the living at the time of the second coming. So it's in effect ALL living at the time. This is in contrast to the amillennial concept of one general judgement at the end that you believe Lula. The Gentiles are described as either sheep or goats and Jews are described as brothers of Christ here in Matt. This passage of judgment related to the Gentiles here is similar to the judgment relating to Israel (Ezek 20:33-38)

You can contrast this to 1 Thess 4 passage that says the "dead IN Christ" will rise first and then those that are ALIVE and in him will meet him in the air. How can you say these two are the same? If the believers are meeting him in the air, why is he now here separating the sheep and the goats? These are two different time periods. One is BEFORE (rapture) and this one in Matt 25 is AFTER the tribulation.

Now when you go to Rev 20 you see TWO resurrections. One is in 20:5-6 and the other is another in 21:11-15. How do you reconcile these two? I say the first is the martyrs during the upcoming Tribulation (after the Rapture) and the second is the unbelievers only.

Are you serious about this? Do you really think that believers won't be judged at the end of the world at the Last Judgment?

Very serious. Christ paid the penalty for our sins. We are not judged because we accepted his punishment for our sins. So why do we need to be judged. He paid the price. So why exactly are we to be judged? He even said as I keep telling you:

"He that hears my word and believes on him that sent me has everlasting life and SHALL NOT COME into condemnation; but is passed from death to llfe."

Why don't you accept Christ's words? Why do you ignore this passage? He's saying he does not condemn us. Our sins are erased or washed clean.

For the Christian, they will not be judged AS the unbelievers. But what they will be judged on is their fruit. Not their root. So rewards will be given out accordingly.

It's like this Lula.

There are past judgments, present judgments and future judgments.

Past

1.Garden of Eden judgment
2. The flood judgment
3.The Calvary judgment
4.The Israelite judgments

Present

1.Upon local churches
2. Upon individual believers

Future

1. The judgment seat (bema) of Christ
2.The tribulational judgment
3.The lamp and talent judgment
4.The sheep and goat judgement (Matt 25)
5. The judgment upon the antichrist and false prophet (Rev 19:20)
6.The judgment on Satan
7.The fallen angel judgment
8. The Great White Throne judgment.

The two most important of these 8 are the Great White Throne and the Bema Seat of Christ. EVERY person on earth today and millions prior will someday appear before one of these throne judgments. So it's not about whether one is to be judged but rather WHERE this judgment will take place.

The Great Tribulation started with Daniel 7:21, "This horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them". The leader (Caesar Nero) of the fourth kingdom, Rome, will persecute the Infant Church, God's people with varying intensity. This persecution of the Infant Church started when the "little horn", Nero, needed a scapegoat for the fire that ravaged the city of Rome. The state-sponsored persecution last for approximately 3 years until Nero's attention was diverted by the Jewish-Roman War.In Daniel 7:25, we are told the length of time during which the little horn will wage war against "the law". It will be "for a time, two times and half a time". The "little horn" who had been making war with the saints now turned his wrath to the law that forbade worship of him. This happened when the Jewish zealots killed the high priest Ananias and burned his palace and put an end to the morning and evening sacrifices for Nero in the Temple. the war upon the war and the law lasted 3 and a half years.

ok, let's look at what you said here a bit closer. The dream of Daniels show that there would be 4 world powers. The first Babylon was overtaken by the Medes-Persians. The Medes and Persians were overthrown by Alexander the Great and Greece. Rome was next in line after Alexander died dividing up his kingdom into 4 parts. But Rome was NEVER conquered. It fell from within in 476. Daniel goes on to show in his dream that this last kingdom will resurface. It died but left burning embers that will one day again ignite.

Now using that section you just quoted here in Daniel I have a question for you. You see Daniel had this dream and is troubled by it. He asks for an interpretation which he gets starting in v17. Out of these Kingdoms will come the anti-christ. That's the little horn you speak of. But we see this last powerful empire will have 10 horns in his head. How does this fit with Nero or Titus in AD 70? We also see that the AC subdues three of these horns (countries or powers). We know from Daniel 9:27 that a covenant will be broken right? How does this come into play in the past as well? What covenant was broken in the past? Nero was dead.

We also know from Daniel 9:27 that the sacrifices will be stopped halfway during this broken covenant. There is no past occurrence that I know of where this fits. Not even with Titus or Nero. Also this is what Christ said to watch for in Matthew 24:15 so we do know it's future. I can't see how this would fit into AD 70. If it doesn't fit then (and this is my view) then that's it. There has been no temple since then so it's still future.

You're saying that the 7 year trib was during Nero's persecution of the Christians and then Titus going into Rome right? Well Nero died (suicide) in AD 67. According to Revelation the AC is going thru the whole 7 years. God throws him into hell in the end. You've got Nero dead halfway thru. Also think about this:

The last Jewish sacrifice had been made three weeks before the Temple had been destroyed in 70AD. Jerusalem had been besieged at the time by the Romans and finally all the sacrifical animals had been slain and no more living animals were available. The priests had carried on the Temple worship without sacrifices for another three weeks. Then the inner walls of the city fell, the Temple destroyed.

I say by looking at the scriptures especially Ezekiel 37 we can see scripture being literally fulfilled before our eyes. We see in that Chapter that the dead bones would come to life in the last days. The nation would be resurrected and become a living breathing nation again. This came true in May 1948. The next two chapters of Ezekiel 38-39 speak of the nations going into Israel just as we are seeing today. They want to destroy it....just as we're seeing today. Then in Ezek 40 on we see the Millennium. So this is all future.

It all goes back to the very first Revelation article I did Lula. It's all in if you're a preterist or a futurist. You believe it's past and I believe it's future. I would think if all scripture was past and fulfilled Christ would be back by now. Didn't he say that?