You, yourself refer to it as "abandoning" us. When a parent "abandons" a child, is it a positive statement on that parent? Don't pretend I'm making up words here, I'm using what you guys are handing out.

Grrrrrr......Baker......how many times can I say that God does not abandon his child or children? When I say has God abandoned America I'm not at all saying he's abandoning his children. He's still with us even if he lets his hand of protection go off a nation. Example: Daniel, Ezekiel, Daniel's, 3 friends when their nation was pulled into Babylon. On the other hand, the King at the time Zedekiah, had both eyes out after seeing his sons die in front of him. He was not a believer. The nation was pulled into captivity. God's own were protected.

Noah, Lot, Abraham, all protected even tho the lands they were in were judged. Noah was the only one left who was listening. Jesus said "like in the days of Noah, so shall the end of the world be."

God's people need to cry out for God's direction. That's the whole idea of National Day of Prayer. Let me ask you Baker, did you do that in May when we had this National Day of Prayer? I'm afraid many Christians, are too busy to take the time to do so. For many years, I didn't bother as well. This is to my shame.

I've read Psalm 81, but according to you, without God to help overcome our natural evils there can be no repentance. Why, without God, would we repent? On the one hand you claim we have no ability to do good works without God, and on the other you claim that we are abandoned by God until we repent.

Correct. This is good. You've gotten to the very heart of it here Baker. We cannot come to God, unless he touches our heart first. When he does, we respond. There are many examples in scripture on this. John said

"But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." 1:12-13.

we see here the children of God are those that believe on his name. We also see the new "birth" is supernatural and therefore completly distinct from natural birth. It is not of blood, that is, contains no human element nor does it lie within the scope of human achievement (not the will of the flesh). It's all God.

Our works are a result of our faith. Like I've said to Lula, first you have to have the root planted before you can bear fruit. But you're right in the aspect without God planting us first, or grafting us into the tree already planted there would be no fruit.

In the case of the two nations, Israel and America. I believe God chose both for a purpose to further his glory to shed light to the other nations by following him. I've said before I believe our country was set up for the express purpose of protecting Israel. Without us Israel would no longer be here and look how young we are.

Both Nations started out ok but as Israel did so are we. We are forgetting our history with God, how he protected, spared and strengthened us thru the hard times. I think about the Revolutionary War and how simple farmers beat the powerful British. They gave credit to God back then. Do we do that anymore? We are getting proud and arrogant, just like Israel did. They thought they were big stuff with God on their side until they went into captivity for their own sinfulness. They were more than a bit shocked. Afterall they were God's people. We're going the same route.

After God chooses, it's up to us to produce the fruit so to speak. As we (the branches) stay close to Christ (the vine) and receive the nourishment we need to flourish fruit happens. That fruit is a testiment to God. The glory is all his. Paul, even in jail, spoke of unspeakable joy he had. It's almost unbelieveable to read this. Where did it come from? He said it came from the fruit he was seeing in the church. This fruit would never have happened if they were not connected to the life source.

While God abandoning us as a Nation is troubling we know he's in control, and those that are his he will never abandon. There's always a remnant called by his name. We have plenty of promises and examples to encourage us. But it should never stop us from crying out to God for mercy on this great nation.

I lived near Macarthur's church in L.A. and never belonged myself, I ministered along side many who did consistently go there. I do know he preaches salvation by grace.

Even if Macarthur was preaching to already Christians he is still calling people to " hear the word of the Lord and obey" and then God will bless the land. That is not grace. There are many out there that have accepted salvation by grace + something else to get to santification + something else to get God's blessing in my life. It can be very subtle but there it is. Here is what I mean.

Churches that preach grace are often hooked on moralism. Why do we live by moralism when we preach grace? It is because we think we can trust God to save our souls from hell by grace, but we can’t trust God to save this world through grace. When it comes to operating in the world we all default back to "works" and how "works"operates. Now a part of that is understandable, if you read Jonathan Edwards check out his preaching on common virtue and true virtue.

Common virtue is part of common grace and it is a "works" way of restraining evil in this world. Pride, fear, guilt, greed all are employed to keep things from being as bad here as they might. What happens, however, when we employ these things in the church as tools for trying to build the church and advance God’s kingdom? Believing in grace at church means NOT appealing to fear, pride, or greed in the church in order to achieve short term compliance and morality. THAT is something we don’t hear much about.

Churches are experts and building institutions and ministries by feeding the sin underneath the sin (read my above post on what Luther said in "Treatise Concerning Good Works") In many ways churches out of lack of faith (because it requires faith to believe that grace and gratitude will do it’s work) charge forward attempting to achieve good things by works not motivated or energized by gratitude or joy but out of guilt, fear and pride. Moralism itself is a subtle way short-cutting the gospel and a stealth way of idolatrous self-salvation. "If we can’t be good at least we can look good because it is too scary to really admit how faithless we really are." Or "If we can at least get society to behave a little bit nicer, God will give us good things and our country will be in His favor."

Part of this is subtle redefinition of "salvation" from God bringing shalom to a fallen world reduces "salvation" to souls avoiding the fires of hell. I do not deny that one of the things the gospel brings is escape from the punishment of sin, but that is by no means the entirety of it. Understanding "salvation" exclusively or primarily as hell avoidance is like understanding eating as starvation avoidance. God spreads for us a rich banquet in how many places in Scripture which is over and over again an image of "salvation".

The truth is that we SAY we believe in grace and have faith that God will save us through grace, but when "save" has subtly been redefined and reduced to mere hell avoidance. I can trust Jesus to save my soul when I actually have very little real fear of hell and I don’t live in a context (unlike most of human history) where I feel any real sense that I will die anytime soon anyway. What kind of faith is required for this? Not much.

But what if I really believed that God was redeeming, reclaiming and restoring not just souls but the whole world and the chief means of this he was employing was grace and gratitude not moralism, guilt, political clout or money? What if I had to confess that people in my church would be changed and motivated by this stuff to live God honoring lives, to serve sacrificially, to give generously, to do all these things apart from my usual bag of tricks of fear, guilt and pride? That I would in fact lead a church where we assumed it would run on grace, not works. Now THAT takes faith.

Often we Christians complain about employing business practices in the church that this is cultural contamination yet the moralistic practices employed for centuries in churches to achieve moral compliance have seldom been tagged as being a stealthy way of sneaking the old idol of works righteousness back into the fold, usually for lousy reasons. Why? Because we have no faith. Because we don’t actually believe that 1. God is the chief agent of the salvation of the world (not merely souls) 2. We don’t even believe he’s able to do any fixing up of people’s lives in the church nor care for the church by these means. We want to faithlessly run to the end of making people look good and comply with a moral system out of guilt and fear rather than trusting that the fruit of gratitude will be far truer and sweeter even if it takes more time to mature. In short, we’re impatient and afraid.

A really good read on this is Dallas Willard's book The Divine Conspiracy. He gives a great breakdown on this and how this all fits into the salvation history of the Bible and the Kingdom of God that Jesus calls those to enter.

KFC POSTS: It doesn't mean we still don't sin. We have just left our sin nature behind. I've never heard the term 'sin nature' before this. What you've said seems to contradict one another. Does it mean we sin with impunity?

What I mean by sin nature is our old nature. Before we come to Christ we have the old nature. It's easy to stay in our sins, it's comfortable. We're not bothered. But once we come to Christ, we have a new nature. Paul says we are now new creatures. It's not so comfortable anymore to sin. It doesn't mean we don't. It just means we sorrow over it and we're not ruled by it. We don't habitually sin knowing the price that was paid. Those times you thought you could get away with something is long gone. It nags at you until you make it right. Remember Jesus said, you don't put new wine in old wineskins? That's what he's talking about. The old wineskins would not be suitable for this new wine. New wine needs new wineskins. So when we come to Christ, he puts his spirit into us, now we have a new nature. He's not going to put his HS into our old self. 2 Cor 5:17

I'm looking at Romans 5...say v12 on. We see there that sin is not plural but singular. It's speaking of our sin nature. It's not the little itty bitty sins that are going to keep us out of heaven. It's the flesh...it's our sin nature we inherited from Adam. Just like Adam represented us into sin, and we are ALL connected to Adam, Christ represents us for ALL those that believe in him. That's why scripture keeps using the term "Christ in us" or "Christ in You" or "those in Christ."

we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are born sinners.

Notice Paul says this in v12:

Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned."

notice it's past tense. When Adam sinned, we all did. Paul wrote this 2,000 years ago. He was speaking of all of us.

The guilt of sin is removed by death of Christ.

"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ by whom we have now received the atonement." v11

Since I'm here.....notice this in v8-10.

But God commendeth his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son much more being reconciled we shall be saved by his life.

Notice who did the work. Look at the pronouns. It was all HIM. It's not us. Our first response? Obedience out of love. Our first action? Baptism.

You see this repeatedly all over the place and even in the OT when it comes to Israel. God, says stuff like "I took you out of Egypt. I carried you on eagles wings. I cleansed you. I brought you to myself,etc. All they had to do was obey. They didn't choose to do that. So they were carried away into captivity and then wandered with no home of their own until 1948. God is getting ready to do a great work on Israel and I'm hoping we're around to see it.

KFC,

You said,

In the case of the two nations, Israel and America. I believe God chose both for a purpose to further his glory to shed light to the other nations by following him. I've said before I believe our country was set up for the express purpose of protecting Israel. Without us Israel would no longer be here and look how young we are.

This is a pretty massive theological statement here. You also are stating that it is pretty clear what God is doing in the world and you have figured this all out.

America is here to protect Israel? How did God protect Israel in the O.T.? Granted He did in many different ways, but it was always Him that did it. It was always very clear that it was God that was fighting...not Israel. See Joshua (march around and blow some horns), Gideon (A few hundred guys fighting thousands) and even when Moses had to hold up the rod in his arms.

So if we do not protect Israel, then God will remove His hand from us and we will loose the blessings that we had back in the good old days in the start of this country? (as long as you were not a slave or a native American) America is not and never was God's people. This is works righteousness...bargaining with God. Has God made a convenant with America like He did at Sinai?

And what about the church? Where in anything written in the NT do you get a "Holy Nation" outside of the church? Colossians, Ephesians, Corinthians. We are resident aliens but our citizenship is in heaven.

You know the British thought the same as well as the Germans for the last hundred years or so. They believed they were God's holy instrument. Christ said, "On this rock I will build my church"...not a country.

KFC,

The other thing you should do is look at the word "nations" as translated in the English texts. In Greek and other languages it comes across roughly as "ethne" or ethnic group. It does not come across as our modern concept of the "nation state." It is not translated as a political nation or group, rather a "nation" is an ethnic group or people group.

Lula, Lula,

I agree with you... Colossians 3:3 "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." This is our assurance, blessed assurance. When God looks at me He sees Christ.

No I understand what you're saying Ignat. This is my personal belief based on what I read in prophecy. it's not spelled out per se in scripture. In fact we don't see America at all mentioned.

But we do know God did use other nations to both protect Israel and punish her in the past. God even said he did. At one point he said Assyria was his whipping stick against Israel.

Above I mentioned to Lula the judgments God used in Israel's history and these judgments were meted out by the other nations.

America is here to protect Israel? How did God protect Israel in the O.T.? Granted He did in many different ways, but it was always Him that did it. It was always very clear that it was God that was fighting...not Israel. See Joshua (march around and blow some horns), Gideon (A few hundred guys fighting thousands) and even when Moses had to hold up the rod in his arms.

It's always him that ultimately does it. When they all went into Egypt as 70 but came out as 600,000 men strong was all God too, but he used Egypt as the Nation behind that. They kept them, even in bondage. But while doing so they "waxed" strong and mighty....all under God's protection using Egypt doing so. When Judah (Southern Kingdom) went into Babylon into captivity, it was God who did this. He even said so and warned them. The Northern Kingdom (Israel) went into captivity to Syria. He still used the nations to do his work for him.

I'm not alone with this thought you know. Many who study prophecy have come to this conclusion. When you see us not mentioned it makes me believe somehow we're either going to be crippled non existent as a nation anymore. I don't know that, but it seems as tho we're not a force in the end time fight by looking at what scripture says.

We do know, that "all the nations" are going into Israel to invade it. Where are we? We do know that other nations have been wanting to do this for quite some time, but have been stopped because of our protection. This is fact. So while I can't back it up with scripture (therefore opinion) it's not hard to see this, especially when you see what is about to happen to Israel.

hahahah I just got finished taking a final on all this OT prophecy and history so it's all fresh in my mind. Ezekiel and Daniel and Zechariah were the last books to finish me up.

The other thing you should do is look at the word "nations" as translated in the English texts

Thanks, I'll do that. I always appreciate HW.....

Unless, like Phelps, you believed everyone who will be damned is already damned, whether or not we are God's children wouldn't be decided until we die. Every human walking the earth would potentially be a child of God, and you know as well as anyone that the very worst of the worst can end up being one.

You are taking the Old Testament view of people being heathens and not God's "people", and applying it to something that someone can decide to do at any moment of their lives. Does God task us with abandoning people, or does He advise us to be longsuffering? Allowing people to die to preserve your "name" is hardly what Paul would call "shaking the dust off your feet".

Again, simply look at how we are supposed to live and treat people, and explain why God is praised for doing what we would be condemned for. A Christian who stood idly by and did not help people suffering a tragedy just because they don't worship God wouldn't be a Christian in anyone's definition. How can we sit around and worship a God who supposedly doesn't behave in a Christ-like way?

It's blaspheme, plain and simple, devised by bad people to validate their evils through association by God.



Matthew 6:

5. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Don't even get me started on on a National Day of Prayer. You realize, of course, that the policy signed by Reagan to create the specific day calls on people of ALL religions. You are defending a bill that does exactly what you consider to be anathema, promoting a "We won't judge your beliefs, just pray to whatever God you worship and that'll be okay" attitude.

Reagan said:

"On our National Day of Prayer, then, we join together as people of many faiths to petition God to show us His mercy and His love, to heal our weariness and uphold our hope, that we might live ever mindful of His justice and thankful for His blessing."

"I call upon the citizens of this great nation to gather together on that day in homes and places of worship to pray, each after his or her own manner, for unity of hearts of all mankind."

I'm surprised you'd support us promoting any worship, no matter how it was undertaken. You rarely espouse anything official that places Islam, Hinduism, etc., on the same level with worshiping the Christian God. Is this a change of heart, or did you just not know the history?

Isn't this exactly what you're saying is destroying the nation? The facade of righteousness and the denial of the "true" God? Seems to me your national day of prayer would be a symptom of that.

As for the "Task Force", you don't want to get me started on Dobson's bunch.

KFC,

You said,

We do know, that "all the nations" are going into Israel to invade it. Where are we? We do know that other nations have been wanting to do this for quite some time, but have been stopped because of our protection. This is fact.

This is the protection that we earned because we protected Israel? We earned this favor from God and now we are in danger of losing this protection because of our behavior?

America needs to repent not of our sins but of our righteous behavior...the righteousness that we thing saves us.

How can you claim to take the Old Testament literally and then pretend that always supporting the Israeli leadership is a sound practice?

Did you know, KFC, that there is a a group made up of Israeli government officials that celebrate the King David Hotel bombing every year? That there is a plaque lauding the attack there? A terrorist attack against British citizens that killed dozens, BY future leaders of Israel?

ALWAYS siding with Israel is definitely not biblical, and in probably half the Bible you would have been going AGAINST God. You, yourself believe that their times in captivity, the plagues, etc., were because they supposedly sinned against God. Those who chose never to oppose Israel would end up calling evil good and heading off with them into captivity a good portion of the time.

Granted, again, I don't believe that. I don't believe God would toss their whole nation to the Babylonians, or the Persians, etc., because of the acts of some of their people or their leaders. You do, though, and so when people claim supporting Israel is supporting God I have to wonder if you are really thinking about it.

You believe with certainty that eventually being on their side will be the right thing, but are you willing to be on their side when they are wrong the rest of the time, just so you don't miss it?

IGNAT POSTS:



Ignat, this is nothing other than Luther’s false notion of righteousness in his own made up system of salvation. He brazenly contradicts what God requires of us as told in Scripture and therefore must be rejected.

A few more of Luther’s erroneous proclamations and doctrines are: Original Sin thoroughly corrupted human nature; therefore no man is free to do what he wills. Whatever he does whether good or bad, it’ s not his own doing, but God’s . “Faith alone” includes a full pardon of sin, past present and future and an unconditional release from its penalties. To secure his salvation then, man needs only to confidently believe that he is saved. Luther said that good works, fasting, almsgiving, and self denial are futile.


Quoting Luther, the second line, “God imputes it to us apart from our works — in other words, it is passive righteousness…”

Protestantism conforms exactly to Luther’s system of salvation which he developed after reading Romans 1:17, “The just man liveth by faith.” By a process of reasoning peculiar to himself, he construed the word “faith” in this text to mean an assurance of “personal salvation” and ‘justification” to mean not an infusion of justice into the heart of the person justified, but a mere external imputation of it. This is taking St. Paul’s teaching too far to the extreme.

His novel doctrine erroneously dispenses with every other virtue enjoined in Scripture and secures the believer’s salvation through “faith without works” of Romans 3:28, a text, btw, that he falsified by adding the word, “alone”. Protestant oral tradition has handed down Luther’s teaching that we have only to believe in Him, take hold of His merits and put them on like a cloak. (external imputation). If we do that, we shall be saved and considered just by the righteousness of Christ. Luther said that all men have to do is remain passive. To attempt to do anything for himself for this salvation would be presumption defined as “an unfounded expectation of gaining salvation or the means of obtaining it; an exaggerated reliance of means of salvation which are contrary to or other than those willed by God.” The system of salvation taught by Luther’s new religion conforms exactly to this definition.

So, this can be summed up by saying that one Scriptural verse, Romans 1:17, distorted by Martin Luther, who some call the “Great Reformer”, with the assistance of the falsified Romans 3:28, became the foundation of Protestantism. The conclusions he drew from them are well familiar by now. “No other sin exists in the world save unbelief. All others are mere trifles. All sins shall be forgiven if we only believe in Christ.” If men “accept Christ as their personal Savior”, His justice will be imputed to them and their salvation is assured, and this WITHOUT COMPUNCTION, CONTRITION, OR PENANCE. Salvation requires one thing only: to believe one is saved.

Ignat, this is not what our Lord Jesus or St.Paul taught. St.Augustine said that “He who created you without your cooperation will not save you without your cooperation.”

what does Romans 1:17 mean? What is St.Paul teaching?

Romans 1:16-17. “ For I am not ashamed of the Gospel; for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and to the Greek. 17 For the righteousness (justice) of God is revealed therein, from faith unto faith; as it is written, he who through faith is righteous shall live.” (this comes from Habakkuk 2:4).

V.17, the expression “righteousness of God” is the same as “justice of God” refers to the state of righteousness or justice in which a person is placed when God gives him the free gift of grace. It’s called the righteousness of God because man cannot attain it through his own efforts. The fact that ‘righteousness’ comes from God does not mean that it is something external to man for “righteousness” does not mean that we are merely called “righteous” but that we are really righteous in God’s eyes. Finally, St.Augustine teaches the only formal cause is ‘justice of God” , not the justice by which He Himself is Just, but the justice by which He makes us just namely the righteousness we have as a gift from Him and by which we are renewed in the Spirit. And not only are we considered just, we ARE TRULY just.

“From faith unto faith”, Scripture tends to use this phrase to indicate an on-going growth. Ps. 84:8; 2Cor. 2:16; 3:18; Rom6:19. What is being spoken about here is a steady progression from the imperfect understanding of the divine truths possible in this life to the perfect understanding that is experienced in Heaven. The full meaning of the phrase can be seen from St.Paul’s statement that in the Gospel justice is made manifest: it begins and is nourished and grows through faith, until the believer at last attains eternal salvation.

The statement that “he who through faith is righteous shall live” comes from Habakkuk 2:4. Here St. Paul applies it to the position of the Christian. What the prophet meant was that those Jews who kept the Law and trusted in its promises would not succumb to when Babylonians invaded. St.Paul applies the test to the righteous of the NT. If they stay firm in their faith in the Gospel, they will continue in the life of grace and will attain the everlasting life. The faith of the good Israelites was a prefiguring of the faith of the good Christians. The just man will live by faith, which “faith is the beginning of man’s salvation, the foundation and source of all justification, “without which it is impossible to please God.” Heb. 11:6 and to be counted as His sons.

St.Paul’s statement can also be understood as meaning that he who through faith is just will live. This puts the emphasis on the fact that faith is the beginning of the process of justification, and that a person who is justified will attain salvation.

IGNAT POSTS:

Amen. The Good News is all about Almighty God's salvation plan of moving His Church closer and closer to Him in this life (ongoing sanctification; our trying to become perfect as He is perfect ) so we'll be with Him in the next.

We earned this favor from God and now we are in danger of losing this protection because of our behavior?

Well I believe God raised us up....we didn't do it ourselves. God put his desire into the hearts and minds of the people way back in the early days of the Pilgrims. From there although not perfect they sought to seek the will of God and included him in their everyday life.

What I see happening today is a plan of God. He's moving the nations in a direction that will culminate in a great battle against Israel. The book of Ezekiel is very good here.

There he commission Ezekiel to warn the people even tho they would not listen. Ezekiel was to be the watchman for Israel. He acted out dramas as to what was going to happen to Israel. He said this in chap 5 when he acted out yet another drama.

"And you son of man take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barbers razor and cause it to pass upon your head and upon thy beard then take the balances to weigh and divide the hair. You shall burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled and you shall take a third part and smite about it with a knife and a third part you shall scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword afterr them."

He burns, cuts and scatters them. We then see in Chap 10 that the glory of God (protection) departs from the east gate of the city. He "leaves them alone" like we have been discussing here. We then see in the very next chapter he says this:

"....I will even gather you from the people and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered and I will give you the land of Israel."

This promise was not to be until 1948 and is still going on today. Going ahead we read:

"For I will take you from among the heathen and gather you out of all countries and will bring you into your own land. " 36:24
"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant wherein your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell therein even they and their children and their children's children for ever..... " 37:25

God once again delivers them out of their predicament after a long period of time out of love for them.

We then read Zechariah who was also preaching at the same time period. He said:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle ......then shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as when he fought in the day of battle and his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives...."Zech 14.

Where are we? God has a plan that is spiriling towards this day and it's my belief that when the time is right the nations are going in against Israel but until God allows it it's just not going to happen. I believe that's where we come into play. Look how instrumental we were during WWII against Hitler's regime. What would have happened if America was not born yet?

I believe Hitler was the direct forerunner to the AC but the time wasn't right. But because of what happened it led to the Jews returning to their homeland bringing us yet closer to these end time results spoken of by Ezekiel and Zechariah.