“the word of God is believed when God regenerates the heart. The testimony of the spirit is superior to reason.”

Like in the movie Polar Express where only those who believe can here the bell ring.

There are numerous examples showing that people can convince themselves of just about anything. With their belief being just as real to them as even the most devout Christian’s belief.

This is the biggest caveat I have with religion. If someone can believe in something that is wrong, just as strongly as a Christian’s belief, that means that Christian’s could be wrong too.

One of these days I'm going to read that Bible...shame everyone ruins the plot before you get a chance to find out yourself, though.

~Zoo

If someone can believe in something that is wrong, just as strongly as a Christian’s belief, that means that Christian’s could be wrong too.

God hides the truth from the wise and intelligent and gives it to babes. Look at the Apostles. None were elite, none were scribes, none were preachers, none were even that intelligent ....KFC

Belief is certainly something more than just being convinced by a reasonable evidence. But saying God reveals the truth about His existence only to the weak and the dumb makes Him unjust unless of course He has a reason to do that. That reason is the refusal of some to accept the evidence of His existence as He presented it in His Magnificent Creations, The universe and whatever in it.

Reason is the firm base of any belief system otherwise the first quote above becomes very true.

Once the base is established, the journey to believe begins and how far you go depends on how much you search and learn. The highest degree of belief is that attained by those "Who Know" not by the weak and the dumb.

Belief based on mere feelings and intuition is OK but this is the lowest degree of belief and if not enlightened by reason and knowledge can lead to fanaticism and misrepresentation of the Religion and of God.

The natural man runs from the truth which exposes his sin .... KFC.

This is the real reason that most non believers don’t admit the validity of the evidence they see. It is a huge and heavy responsibility to admit His existence, because once one does, one must listen .... and what HE says is not for the weak or the dumb, it is a heavy responsibility indeed. Many prefer to avoid that and it is more acceptable, to their own mind, to deny the evidence than to admit it then refuse to listen.

This is the real reason that most non believers don’t admit the validity of the evidence they see. It is a huge and heavy responsibility to admit His existence, because once one does, one must listen .... and what HE says is not for the weak or the dumb, it is a heavy responsibility indeed. Many prefer to avoid that and it is more acceptable, to their own mind, to deny the evidence than to admit it then refuse to listen.

Perhaps that is true for some people, but I think that it is extremely unfair to say that most people don't believe in God because of some kind of guilt or willful ignorance. There are a lot of people who simply look out and don't see all that much evidence for God's existance.

I have a tremendous amount of respect and regard for your faith, KFC. and this was an extremely well thought out profession of that faith. i agree with a lot of what you have to say. i do take exception with one "theme " that seems to resonate here...the notion that intellect and God are incompatible. to me, that's kind of a cop out. the idea that intellect and knowledge somehow "cloud" one's vision kind of sets up in advance any logical explanations offered for various religious stances or biblical history/writings. the old "that's man's logic, not God's" just doesn' t wash with me. i could give my reasons, but i have a feeling we'd go back to the previous quoted words. plus we've spoken at length on this before and agree on much, so it's probably not nec. to repeat everything, lol...


also, the description of the apostle as "a lowly tax collector" is a bit inaccurate. yes, he was a tax collector, but in those days, where the government ruled with a lil more of an iron fist than we americans are used to, was a position of power, and was hardly "lowly."

I can see where you're coming from, KFC, but I personally have a really hard time accepting feeling over reason. The biggest thing, for me, is that I don't know how you can, in general, trust any given feeling to be a representation of truth rather than simply a normal feeling. Like stubbyfinger said, there are people out there that strongly believe a lot of things that I think you and I would both agree are unlikely to be true. How can you be sure that your feelings are true and theirs aren't?

There are a lot of people who simply look out and don't see all that much evidence for God's existance.

to "simply look" with no thinking or appreciaition of the magic of what they see is just looking. it is the desire to know and understand that derives the mind to start thinking about what you looking at.

you are correct, a lot of people dont have that desire. they just exist and go on existing and enjoy His bounties without a thought about where all that came from.

One of these days I'm going to read that Bible

Hey, why wait? There's no time like the present. You may never have another chance. Take the 21 day test. Read thoughtfully one chapter a day of John. Then get back to me...I'd be interested in what you have to say.

But saying God reveals the truth about His existence only to the weak and the dumb makes Him unjust unless of course He has a reason to do that

Well I think it's clear in scripture that the strong and powerful don't need God. They have themselves to depend on. When we are weak then we are strong because we depend on the author of strength.

It is a huge and heavy responsibility to admit His existence, because once one does, one must listen .... and what HE says is not for the weak or the dumb, it is a heavy responsibility indeed. Many prefer to avoid that and it is more acceptable, to their own mind, to deny the evidence than to admit it then refuse to listen.

Well some don't want to change their ways....granted. But they have no idea what they're missing but they are missing something. Others believe they are beyond help. They've been so bad they are not worthy or so they feel. But that's a lie from the pit of hell. God takes all that come to him and nothing will separate the believer from him. Nothing. He also said that his yoke is easy, his burden light. Many have the false belief that if they come to God there's all sorts of do's and don'ts...rules and regulations to follow. More lies from the pit of hell. Many are quite surprised at how light they feel when they leave it all at the cross and walk forward to begin a new life. It's exhilarating. That's why new Christians can be a big pain in the neck......for unbelievers because they are so excited they want to share what they've just experienced.

There are a lot of people who simply look out and don't see all that much evidence for God's existance.

Well God says, look outside. Look at creation. You may not visibly see me but you see evidence of me. You see my fingerprints. Actually scripture says "All have gone astray. All have fallen short of the glory of God." That's ALL. None of us are righteous. None of us can enter heaven on our own accord. We're fooling ourselves if we think we can earn or buy our way. We can never be good enough. How do we measure that? Even if we can do this wouldn't it be unfair for God not to tell us how to do so?

I have a tremendous amount of respect and regard for your faith, KFC. and this was an extremely well thought out profession of that faith. i agree with a lot of what you have to say. i do take exception with one "theme " that seems to resonate here...the notion that intellect and God are incompatible. to me, that's kind of a cop out. the idea that intellect and knowledge somehow "cloud" one's vision kind of sets up in advance any logical explanations offered for various religious stances or biblical history/writings. the old "that's man's logic, not God's" just doesn' t wash with me

Thanks SConn. I'm not saying that the intellect and God are incompatible per se. I'm saying that God doesn't choose us because of our intellect or we don't find him because of how smart we are. It goes beyond that. It's more of a heart issue. I think it's clear in scripture it wasn't the intellectuals that were "getting it." I mean some of them did.....like Nicodemus and Paul. Paul was extremely intelligent. But again are you familiar with Paul's conversion? He was knocked off his horse so to speak. For the most part those chosen were those we would not have....the weak, (Gideon) the brash (Peter), one with no confidence (Moses) a prostitute (Rahab), a young boy (David) Naaman (a leper) etc.

Their are many "intellectuals" that have believed and followed Christ. Go back and read the writings of many of our founding fathers and some of the most scientific and gifted minds of past eras and you'll see that they came to God in spite of their knowledge.

But for many intellectuals like the Harvard types....lol....they rely on their own minds, not the mind of God.

also, the description of the apostle as "a lowly tax collector" is a bit inaccurate. yes, he was a tax collector, but in those days, where the government ruled with a lil more of an iron fist than we americans are used to, was a position of power, and was hardly "lowly."

Among his own people he was. A tax collector worked for the Romans and was thought to be a traitor among his own. Matthew was a Jew yet worked for the hated Roman government who was taxing the Jews heavily. He probably was paid well so in that case no he wasn't lowly...only among his own was he considered a rat.

I can see where you're coming from, KFC, but I personally have a really hard time accepting feeling over reason. The biggest thing, for me, is that I don't know how you can, in general, trust any given feeling to be a representation of truth rather than simply a normal feeling.

I absolutely agree with you here. This is very true. We can't rely on our feelings. Sometimes our feelings can be guides and can be useful but other times our feelings are irrational. They cannot always be trusted.

When I feel what I believe is the HS's leading. I check it out. I test it. I measure it to what he's revealed to us already thru scripture and logic and reason do come into play. If I believe that God is telling me to move for instance, I pray about it, I read scripture and I keep my eyes wide open. When things start to happen I can actually see the hand of God working in my life. It's amazing. Things fall in to place easily. Sometimes it's a matter of waiting on God. I'm actually in that mode right now.

How can you be sure that your feelings are true and theirs aren't?

That's a great question. Again, it's because I don't base my belief on feelings. If I did, they would change as I changed. What I felt at 20 I don't feel at 40. What I feel at 40 I will not feel at 60.

Peter said: "The word of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached to you. "

lol good BS, it was cliche, but it still amused me

but it still amused me

ha, as long as you're amused. That's a good thing right?

"There is an answer as to why human reason and logic cannot get you there"

Indeed there is. The answer is, because it isn't true.

what if you're wrong?