The Bible is a product of man, my dear. Not of God.

Sorta true . . . it was written by man, God himself did not physically produce it.

The Bible did not fall magically from the clouds.

Last time I checked, very true.

Man created it as a historical record of tumultuous times, and it has evolved through countless translations, additions, and revisions.

So many translations that we really have no idea what the original record might have said.

History has never had a definitive version of the book.

Sad, but very, very true. Thus the confusion still inherent in translation and interpretation.

There. I did my assignment. Now you can give me your bad grade.

Hi, KFC. I am wondering if your teacher has covered the Sadducees, Pharisees and the Essenes as a pre-cursor to the Gnostic traditions.

Paul defined himself as a Pharisee (see Acts 23:6 where Paul said ""My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees." The Pharisees or "detached" ones, were a sect of Jews that existed during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE to 70 CE) that opposed the Sadducees or priestly class of Jews. The roots of Christianity, Rabbinical Judaism and Gnosticism all can be found in the writings and philosophy of the Pharisees.

They were separated from the Sadducees by class, wealth and religious belief. There are many differences, but during the time of the Babylonian exile, they had accepted the idea of an after-life, a concept that was foreign to Judaism before that time. This idea, coupled with the concept that anyone could achieve priestly status by learning ("A learned mamzer takes precedence over an ignorant High Priest" where mamzer means an outcast child, was one of their sayings.) made them heretics.

So, you see, we are all philosophically descended from heretics. Even the most traditional of us.

You should also take into account that the way that you worship Christ would probably have gotten you attacked in the 4th Century.

What makes the Gnostic Gospels so interesting (dangerous to some) is that there were at least 72 Gospels. In the 4th Century of the Common Era (what you might refer to as Anno Domini) someone threw out 68 of them and kept 4. Who is to say that the Gospel of Mary is not correct? She says that Jesus did not rise from the dead, but his ghost came to her. Or the Gospel of James, brother of Jesus? One wonders why these books were considered so dangerous that they were ordered destroyed, yet were found in modern times in a manner that might be considered "miraculous."

Since many of the Gnostics were persecuted and even killed for their beliefs, wouldn't one consider them martyrs?

This past weekend, I attended a lecture by Adolfo Reitman, curator of The Shrine of the Book, where the Dead Sea scrolls are kept. I also got out "The War of The Jews" by Josephus, although I haven't started reading that. I recommend reading about the scrolls at Link as well as The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagel.

There. I did my assignment. Now you can give me your bad grade.

hahahah, well SC you definitely get an A+ in "smart alec".........

but let's see......hmmmm you're not a TOTAL loss but you still have a ways to go.....keep studying.......

Hi, KFC. I am wondering if your teacher has covered the Sadducees, Pharisees and the Essenes as a pre-cursor to the Gnostic traditions

Hi Larry, I am the teacher. I know that Paul was a Pharisee but distanced himself from them after his conversion. He spent the rest of his life with the ones he had been persecuting as a Pharisee of the Pharisees. I also know that in the book of Colossians Paul is addressing both the intellectual Gentiles and the Jewish Mystism teachers coming together

While I agree with you on the diff between the two groups and know the Sadducees did not believe in the afterlife, I'm not sure where you're getting the Jews had no concept of the afterlife. David talked about the afterlife many times. Remember when his son died in infancy and he said...."I will go to him?" Job understood that his children were not gone from him. Everything he had was replaced and doubled but not his children. Job also said "I will stand before you in my flesh." Job is the oldest written book in the bible. Are you looking at sources outside of scripture ......say secular Jewish writings?

You should also take into account that the way that you worship Christ would probably have gotten you attacked in the 4th Century.

Absolutely. I am very thankful I wasn't born in that time. God knew what a low tolerance for pain I have. I'd be a wus.

Who is to say that the Gospel of Mary is not correct? She says that Jesus did not rise from the dead, but his ghost came to her. Or the Gospel of James, brother of Jesus?

stay tuned. I think I'll write on this next. We do have James in our bible and this was a very scruinized book. One of the things we have to know is that the councils didn't decide what was to be accepted, they only gathered what had already been accepted for the first three centuries by the early church.

Since many of the Gnostics were persecuted and even killed for their beliefs, wouldn't one consider them martyrs?

I would agree that anyone who dies for their faith would be considered a martyr. I know the Muslims are blowing themselves up and consider themselves martyrs as well, but I dunno, they're doing it to themselves so I just call that suicide.

Thanks for the info Larry. I will check into that. I would love to hear about the lecture tho.

There is no discussion of the afterlife in the Torah, nothing comparable to Revelations. Remember that the Jews had just escaped servitude to people who had a Book of the Dead as core text.

Here is a pretty good summary of Jewish thought on the afterlife: WWW Link

The Book of Job was most probably written after the Babylonian Exile. One of the reasons that I state that pretty strongly is the use of the name "satan" which is a corruption of the Farsi (Persian) term for questioner or prosecutor. Linguistically it is improbable that the Hebrews would have borrowed a phrase from a people that they did not meet until the end of the first Diaspora. It was the Persians that would free the Jews from captivity in the land of the Babylonians. Even the though the events in Job are often placed prior to the time of Moses, documentary analysis places the writing of it much later.

Regarding the Dead Sea scrolls, 11 caves in the area around Qumran were found to have contained writings. These have been dated to span the period from about 250 BCE to 68 CE. (BCE meaning "before the common era" and CE meaning "common era" and corresponding to BC and AD.) Qumran was a school and retreat for the Essenes, an ascetic group associated with the Pharisees. As Pharisees means "detached" the Essenes were men who had removed themselves from all distractions.

They lived in the Judean Wilderness, the same area that John the Baptist and Jesus were supposed to have wandered in. But the documents never mention John or Jesus, not even in a negative way. Sermon on the Mount, however, directly refutes some of the key Essene tenets. This leads one to believe that Christianity came afterwards, after the destruction of the Second Temple in 72 CE. That makes sense since the destruction of Jerusalem is referenced in the Gospels.

The key belief that ties the Pharisees, the early Christians and the Gnostics together is the idea that man can have contact with G-d without priestly intervention. Remember that you had to be born into the priestly class (or tribe) in ancient Judea.

Gnostics were part of the Christian church until around 150 CE. Then the church began to become more formalized and the priests and bishops didn't like anyone questioning their necessity. It was only after this time that the Gnostics were regarded as heretics. (Before that time, the early Christians were too worried about their own persecutions to persecute anyone else.)

By 350 CE, after Nicea when the divinity of Jesus was decided as an official policy of the state religion of Rome, the Gnostics had to go underground.

There is no discussion of the afterlife in the Torah, nothing comparable to Revelations. Remember that the Jews had just escaped servitude to people who had a Book of the Dead as core text.

Thanks for the link.

Well since we're talking the Jews, we have to stick to the OT only and you're right, I can't think of anything in Moses' writings on the afterlife......are you talking about the book...."Ritual of the Dead?" Much is written thru the Prophets later on regarding the afterlife and hell.

The Book of Job was most probably written after the Babylonian Exile. One of the reasons that I state that pretty strongly is the use of the name "satan" which is a corruption of the Farsi (Persian) term for questioner or prosecutor. Linguistically it is improbable that the Hebrews would have borrowed a phrase from a people that they did not meet until the end of the first Diaspora. It was the Persians that would free the Jews from captivity in the land of the Babylonians. Even the though the events in Job are often placed prior to the time of Moses, documentary analysis places the writing of it much later

While I know this is a thought, think it thru first. I think the mention of Job by Ezekiel throws your date out . Remember Ezek wrote before and during the Exile and he mentions Job in Chap 14:14.

There are three basic views on the dating of Job. 1) in the patriarchal age, shortly after the events happened.....2)in the time of Solomon (950 BC) .....3)at the time of the Exile or after........ as you mentioned.

The detailed report of the speeches of Job and his friends seems to argue for the book's being written shortly after the events occurred. On the other hand, the book shares characteristics of other wisdom books which would date this during the age of Solomon. So I'd vote for #1 or 2 with a lean towards #1.

Also to root for the patriarchal age we can see the absence of references to Israelite history or biblical Law; Job’s long life of over 100 years (42:16); Job’s role as priest for his family, which was prohibited by Mosaic Law (1:5); and the measurement of Job’s wealth in terms of livestock (1:3).

Most scholars today date the book between the Solomonic and exilic eras, although Job could be the oldest book in the Old Testament. Scholars have examined the language of the book and its relationship to other biblical texts in an attempt to decide the date of composition; but the language of Job has proved inconclusive as evidence.

This leads one to believe that Christianity came afterwards, after the destruction of the Second Temple in 72 CE. That makes sense since the destruction of Jerusalem is referenced in the Gospels.

This has to be really suspect because of NERO. He was the biggest persecutor of the Christians and he died in 68 AD. Paul and Peter were already dead at his hands by then. He was highly suspected of burning Rome in July of 64 and then blamed it on the Christians. It wasn't until Constantine put a stop to the Christian burning party and that didn't occur until the 4th Century.

The book of Acts would back this up as well. It's filled with dates, times and places that have been backed up with historical documents as well as archaeology. Luke, a physician, gave great attention to detail and receives high marks for his accuracy by more than a few historians.

Gnostics were part of the Christian church until around 150 CE. Then the church began to become more formalized and the priests and bishops didn't like anyone questioning their necessity. It was only after this time that the Gnostics were regarded as heretics

I'm not sure what you mean part of the church but I know they were trying to infiltrate the church with their teachings. We can see that in Paul's letter to the Colossians, as I wrote here and John addresses this in 1 John and of course the book of Jude. I think Peter addresses some of this as well. But it's clear that while they don't name the "Gnostics" it's clear they are addressing here in the scriptures the beginning of the yet unformed doctrine which would later be termed Gnosticism. The early church fathers addressed this also in the 1st and 2nd Century and I can give you a list of books by them if you'd like.

I'd like to ask you tho....what do you think about Marcion?

By 350 CE, after Nicea when the divinity of Jesus was decided as an official policy of the state religion of Rome, the Gnostics had to go und

I don't go that far with the gnostics, so I'm unsure of where and what happened to them, but I do know the teachings have resurfaced especially with the DaVinci Code and also with the Jesus Seminar People. There was also a documentary on this a few years ago on the History Channel that has far as I can see is filled with revisionism and not historic evidence.

I'm thinking of writing more on this maybe this weekend if I can get some time.