Our Conscience as our guide to heaven?
Published on January 31, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
If we had a roomful of people...wait we do....right here in JU. Okay right here on JU it's hard to get even two of us completely on the same page regarding what good is, forget about how we can make it to heaven. How can that be if God has given us a conscience to follow? Wouldn't he place the same things in there for us all?

In Stanley's book on being good he put in a story about an anthropologist who spent time in New Guinea with a tribe that celebrated betrayal. The ability to win the confidence of someone in order to later betray him was viewed as a virtue. When the story of Jesus was told, members of the tribe stood up and clapped when the story got to the part about Judas betraying Jesus. They thought Judas was the hero. That was their mindset. Betrayal was good.

There is no true consensus of conscience amoung us. We go by what "feels" good to us. I think we should all adopt my personal value system and act accordingly. Isn't that what we think? But yet, we keep seeing others who insist on doing things they "feel" is right. They are not listening to us.

A problem with trusting in our own internal sense of right and wrong as a divine compass is that our compass keeps changing. What I was dogmatic about when I was younger doesn't matter much to me now some twenty years later. Getting drunk, living with the opposite sex, cheating on taxes that I could rationalize about, wouldn't have bothered me like it does today. What does this mean? I thought I was good back then. I wasn't as bad as most. According to the world I was pretty squeaky clean.

It means we change. Our morals, values and ethics change over the years. So which standard does God use? Does he use our adolecent standard? Our single not married standard? Our married and now think differently standard? Our now have children and can understand things much differently standard? How come God hasn't told us which standard he's using?

Ok, this is about the time somebody throws the 10 commandments my way and says...this is it. The problem is, there is no connection with the 10 commandments and heaven. Nada. Zilch. Check it out yourself. There is no promise of heaven attached to these commandments. In fact, a big Jewish elite group...the Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife at all!!

Nowhere can we find these commandments guarantee eternal life. Too bad for all those that depend on these do's and don'ts to get them past the pearly gates. They are going to be disappointed big time. So what was their purpose then?

They were to provide a social and civil way of life for the nation of Israel in much the same way as we have laws that govern our society. They needed laws to live by as we do now. When they left Egypt they had no rules or system of government. So God gave them a set of rules to live by but nowhere did he promise heaven for those who kept the law. Nowhere did he threaten hell for those who didn't. He expected they wouldn't be able to keep these laws so that's why he set up the sacrificial system.

They got off track many times and God sent warnings via the prophets. They chose to ignore God more than once but even then God never threatened hell on them or abandoned them for that matter. They had consequences that would come into play but never the promise of heaven or hell mentioned during any of these times.

The NT comes right out and give us what the OT implies. "There is none righteous, not even one.........Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law; rather through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:10, 20.

So there you have it, no one can reach heaven by being good. That pretty much sums it up. Good people are not going to heaven because they are......... well....just good people.

Later....taking the test.








Comments
on Jan 31, 2007
"It means we change. Our morals, values and ethics change over the years."


So does the Bible's version of God. Yesterday you invade other nations and kill every man, woman, child, and goat because they worship other Gods, tomorrow you look to the beam in your own eye. Yesterday you sacrifice animals to a vengeful God that delights in blood sacrifice, and tomorrow He offers His Son and that'll do stave off the bloodthirsty pangs for eternity.

In between you have lots of excuses. Lots of guesswork and doctrinal gambling on prophesy and scripture to excuse not doing the things we became civilized enough not to stomach any more. Yet, here we are, still trying to excuse barbarism simply because we also can't stomach the idea that our religion was ever wrong.

Those same issues with culture and ideals comes into play with religion, as well. Oddly in the Christian tradition was apparently lucky enough to hit it 100% of the time. Or God cared about us enough to give us the truth, while not bothering to give it to those tribesman you are talking about.
on Jan 31, 2007
well Baker, there's one thing I'm not ever gonna change........and that is YOUR mind.

You kind of remind me of Thomas lately. You know the doubter? He doubted his beliefs and believed his doubts. But later he made the the best declaration of God than any other including the brash and bold outspoken Peter........

there's still hope for you yet........I for one will never give up on you.

as far as the tribesmen? He sent missionaries to them. I wonder if they listened. If so, their lives were forever changed.

on Jan 31, 2007
I appreciate your faith, even thought I don't believe it is well placed. I have faith in you, too, that eventually you'll reject all the man-made, political nonsense that has been injected into your religion over the last few thousand years.

As far as the tribesmen? What about the thousand or more years they lived in their ignorance before the missionaries were sent? Like the question about Jesus not writing anything, why would God trust mortal, sinful men with the souls of His children? Why not see to it that we all got the message on time?
on Jan 31, 2007

Very well done KFC.

I really loved this and want to print it out for my uncle (um, when I get my printer back up and working)because we were JUST HAVING this conversation on Saturday.  He needs assurance, but thinks the deal is "too good to be true."

 

on Jan 31, 2007
Why not see to it that we all got the message on time?


He did. That's why he sent his Holy Spirit. God is never late and is always on time.

What about the thousand or more years they lived in their ignorance before the missionaries were sent?


first off we may have no idea who God has sent there. Christ came 2000 years ago, so the message was alive 1000 years ago. Second, God says even if they are not told by man they have nature that speaks of God. He said..."for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead so they are without excuse." Romans 1:20.

So basically the things that are made (creation) reveal to all men the eternal power and Godhead of the true God so that the rejection of this truth makes a man without excuse before God.

He needs assurance, but thinks the deal is "too good to be true."


the deal? Meaning it's not about how much we do, or know?

Thanks Tova.

on Feb 01, 2007
"He did. That's why he sent his Holy Spirit. God is never late and is always on time."


No offense, but WITH that privilege Western religion hasn't even decided on the intricacies of doctrine. You really think that that the birds and flowers can just speak of God to the point that natives that have never heard of Jesus can understand your concept of salvation? No offense, but a lot of people with book-in-hand, billions over the years, haven't been able to come to the same conclusion as you with a preacher in the pulpit.

It seems that nature isn't doing its job, even with the help of the literature. I'm not seeing much evidence of the fact that it would be possible sans the cultural tradition or at least a good tutor.
on Feb 01, 2007
well Baker, there's one thing I'm not ever gonna change........and that is YOUR mind.

You kind of remind me of Thomas lately. You know the doubter? He doubted his beliefs and believed his doubts. But later he made the the best declaration of God than any other including the brash and bold outspoken Peter........

there's still hope for you yet........I for one will never give up on you.

as far as the tribesmen? He sent missionaries to them. I wonder if they listened. If so, their lives were forever changed.


Give up, in him finding God your way?


That's what I get annoyed with, even though I believe in God, there are some folks (not saying you KFC) that believe that their way is the only way. What if, there was more than just one way?

I guess to some, another persons way (what they choose), isn't the right way.

Oh well...


God is never late and is always on time.


Whose time? His time, or Our time? Like what i remember hearing once, "What is time to God?"

on Feb 01, 2007
Give up, in him finding God your way?


Well, it's not MY way. It's HIS way. Just don't shoot me ok?

What if, there was more than just one way?


am I supposed to answer this? Christ did say HE was the only way. So again...don't shoot me ok?

Whose time? His time, or Our time? Like what i remember hearing once, "What is time to God?"


hahahah I guess HIS time. We're on HIS schedule. Ya, it's not like God is checking his watch and checking it twice now is it?
on Feb 01, 2007
Give up, in him finding God your way?


Well, it's not MY way. It's HIS way. Just don't shoot me ok?

What if, there was more than just one way?


am I supposed to answer this? Christ did say HE was the only way. So again...don't shoot me ok?


Oh no, I won't. No worries there, i understand that you're just a messanger. I guess i didn't watch my wording. I didn't necessarily mean it as in literally "your" way.

If you want to answer them, go right ahead. I promise I won't shoot. *holsters his weapon* (Just joking...ya know...)

hahahah I guess HIS time. We're on HIS schedule. Ya, it's not like God is checking his watch and checking it twice now is it?


lol I've always wondered...what time is *he* on? Perhaps he is...who knows.

Peace, ~L
on Feb 02, 2007
"God is never late and always on time"

Tell the people of Darfur that.