Sorry, Sodaiho, I meant to put this in the above comment. Didn't mean to ignore you.

No one is coercing you,

---Sodaiho

Give it time. I worked for a while as a supervisor for a cleaning company in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and almost the entire crew was Spanish-speaking. So much so that, to facilitate things a little better, the Project Manager was a Mexican kid who, though very nice and a hard worker, was a little over his head. And he always had trouble understanding those of us who spoke English as our first language. It's coming. Most schools nowadays, as I understand, at least, require at least one year of foreign language class for graduation. I'd call that coercion.

but it might help to break down cultural barriers and increase understanding if we attempted to learn some of the language of our neighbors.

---Sodaiho

Okay.....if I want to go there, I'll learn their language, as I indicated somewhere above. I still say that, if they want to come here AND LIVE, they should have to learn our language, instead of making me hand-signal my way through checking out their order or telling them where the restroom is. As I also said somewhere above, that would only be courteous.

What the hell is so wrong with all this? I mean, according to Chak's own figures, over 82% of Americans speak English. Yet, he debates my point, too. Majority rule used to mean something in this country, you know?

"Your" country is an interesting choice of words, suggesting that immigrants are not as "American" as you.

---Sodaiho

Yes, they ARE less American than I am, because this is MY country; they're coming here to live from somewhere else. THEY'RE country, where they speak some other language. I was born and bred here. Were they?
No...they want to come here and enjoy the benefits of MY country. The same benefits that are my birthright, guaranteed by the sweat and blood of MY ancestors who worked to create and warred and defend those rights, because I was born into them. In MY country.

Since you do not have the numbers and have not camped out yourself at recruiting stations (assuming you live in a predominately Muslim neighborhood) how can you say this? As it turns out, "loyal American WASPS seem to be having the same difficulty getting to the recruiting stations.

I can say this because it's true. The Muslims who say they hate the Fundamentalists are just sitting by and letting them take the spotlight, representing all of Islam, instead of standing up and saying "no...we're not all like that". It's true that "WASPs" aren't exactly thronging the streets, either, but then, the Muslims have a God to fanatically defend, an ideal, rather than a country, which should mean more to them, overall. After all, it's pretty much all they have. But that's just my opinion.

In another sense, let me ask this, why would an Iraqi immigrant who has (to go with your scenario) fled Iraq for refuge here in the US deliberately put himself back in Iraq where he would very likely be high on the hit list of insurgents?

---Sodaiho

Because he left Iraq in the hands of a tyrant he hated, and possibly left family there, as well. Family he'd like to see enjoy the same freedoms he's enjoyed here in America, and so he should go there to defend them against the insurgents and aid in the establishment of those freedoms.
Iraqi immigrants should have more fire in their bellies for Iraqi independence than anyone else. Many German immigrants signed up to fight in the world wars for just that reason. Polish exiles and immigrants in England and the States enlisted in droves to help with the liberation of Europe and, subsequently, Poland. But then, that was a different time, more clearly-defined in ideals and there was no PC.
Also, they were Christians, not Muslims.

My sense is they are doing about the same as you, earning a living and paying the taxes that enable other poor youngsters to go out there and be targets.

---Sodaiho

Listen, pal.....don't try to make me feel bad because I'm not in there thick of battle. I'd be there if I could, but I can't, for medical reasons I've defined in other article threads. That's why I defend my country here on the Web, against liberal underminers and weak-kneed wafflers like you.

For this comment alone, you've shown me that you're not worth my time in defining my reasons for you. You've also shown me that you're probably running out of steam, because you're getting personal.

As to the cartoon quip, I didn't see a lot of American immigrants protesting this, a few perhaps, but most of those protests were in Europe and the Middle East.

---Sodaiho

Granted, but that doesn't change the fact that if so many Muslims are truly outraged by the attrocities and violent, sick extremes of Fundamentalism, they should all be protesting against it and its purveyors, with just the same pitched fervor.

Be well.

---Sodaiho

You, too. God Bless you and have a Happy Easter.

they're coming here to live from somewhere else

So did your ancestors, didn't they?

they're coming here to live from somewhere else So did your ancestors, didn't they?

Yes but at the time there were no laws pertaining to "how" it needed to be done. There are NOW and they're breaking them! If I were to break the same laws by going the other way..."into Mexico", I'd end up in a federali prison damn quick. So why should it be wrong to do the same to them?

Come on, Chak...... you're ususally better than this.

OK, I'll try and do better.
I don't want to comment now on the situation in the United States, a country that I have never visited and have no immediate plans to do so. We're lucky that we speak English, the new global language. I'm luckier than you, having just been appointed a professor of English at a leading Asian university.

My travels have shown me that we sometimes take this luck for granted. The stereotype of the American tourist (and sometimes British tourist) in a foreign country dealing with a waiter's incomprehension, by repeating their request in English, but shouting this time, is a cliche, but one that I have witnessed enough times to know the truth at the heart of it. Having the luck to speak the only language that (seems to) matter, we are notoriously bad at bothering with a second language.

Now, in my professional role as a language teacher I can tell you that some languages are harder to learn than others, but all foreign languages take years of study to master. The mistake that a lot of people are making here is to assume that the Mexican waiter who cannot understand your order is making no effort to learn English. In fact, this is highly unlikely; if true, it would be monumentally stupid. The most likely explanation is that the immigrant is somewhere on that great "English as a Foreign Language" learning curve - beginner, elementary, pre-intermediate, intermediate, upper-intermediate, advanced, proficiency. Getting through all that takes a lot of years, even for the most linguistically gifted. It may even take more than one generation. If English speakers (for all kinds of reasons) were not so notoriously bad at learning other languages, this would be obvious, but I think some of you really believe that everyone can learn English in a single semester of night school. Maybe a little civility and patience is all that is needed.

Why would the founding fathers have chosen French? They were English colonies. The fact that they all spoke English doesn't prove they meant for it to be a national language, any more than your average curling team intendes to be monotone.

We can be like the piddly cultural supremacists in France and Canada if you want, passing laws to make sure that no one "corrupts" our precious non-culture with other people's cultures. We'll be just as lame and inconsequential eventually as they are.

** A Mexican comes to the United States, knowing they know no English, accepting the difficulties involved as a matter of course. We call him stupid.

** An American knows full well that a growing number of people in the US speak English *at best* as a second language, and know that they will very likely have to deal with them on a regular basis. Out of cultural obstinance, self-imposed ignorance, or just laziness we refuse to get the tools we need to communicate. We call ourselves morally right.

It's the same thing. Both people know that they are going to have situations where knowing something other than their home language is necessary, and both decide not to undertake educating themselves in a way that benefits them. What happens to segments of the population that don't have the tools to compete?

Both the Mexican and the American deny themselves, one out of hardship, the other out of obstinance, and both will take a back seat to people who can communicate however they like. Adapt, or die. We told that to the American Indian children when we beat their language and culture out of them. We tell that to Mexicans when they come here.

How are you going to feel when the majority of the population looks at you and says that? When you run a farm and you can't hire people to work with you because you are too ignorant or stubborn to learn their language? The guy down the road takes a course a few hours a week and can out manage you.

Adapt or die is just something the majority says to the minority. We've had 200 years of shoving it down other people's throats. We can be like France and become irrelavant with immigrants marching in the street, or we can embrace change and embrace enriching ourselves and let our culture honestly reflect our democratic composition.

How are you going to feel when the majority of the population looks at you and says that? When you run a farm and you can't hire people to work with you because you are too ignorant or stubborn to learn their language? The guy down the road takes a course a few hours a week and can out manage you.

This is already happening in Florida. I met a man today that is moving to my state because his part of Florida (Miami) is being taken over by the Spanish Culture. He and his mother who is now quite elderly says it's very difficult to converse with people down there. They said it's been on the ballot down there to change the language from English to Spanish many times but has yet to be successful. It's only a matter of time they said.

As I see the Muslims streaming into this country by the masses as well as into the European countries and having babies at a faster rate than either the Americans or the Europeans, do we just roll over and say ok the Arabic language is now the new "worldwide" language in all countries including our own?

I heard on the radio the other day that in the next 50 years the Muslims will represent 50% of the European population going by the birth rate and influx into the country.

I can see this happening quite easily. I believe it will happen. So I think we should all start teaching our children Arabic. So when they hire us, we can communicate with them.

"This is already happening in Florida. I met a man today that is moving to my state because his part of Florida (Miami) is being taken over by the Spanish Culture.

Listen to yourself. "Taking over" as if people speaking their own language in their own neighborhoods is a sin. You wouldn't think that way if a bunch of whitebread Americans moved into those neighborhoods, "diluteing" latino culture. Face it, it isn't us and them, it is just us. You choose not to communicate. Your friend chooses not to. That's your right, but it is also your right to deny yourself of many other advantages. Enjoy the results.

"As I see the Muslims streaming into this country by the masses as well as into the European countries and having babies at a faster rate than either the Americans or the Europeans, do we just roll over and say ok the Arabic language is now the new "worldwide" language in all countries including our own? "

Do we tell them they can't move here? Do we seize their kids the way we did the American Indians and beat them when they speak their native language? Do we pass idiotic laws saying that United States citizens aren't allowed to speak whatever language they want?

You spit the idea that latin folks might actually have the nerve to democratically impose their language on everyone else, yet, that's exactly what you are suggesting we do. Because we were there first? Sorry, we weren't. We just destroyed their culture, too, because we believed, as we do now, that we had the right to tell them how to speak.

"I heard on the radio the other day that in the next 50 years the Muslims will represent 50% of the European population going by the birth rate and influx into the country.

I can see this happening quite easily. I believe it will happen. So I think we should all start teaching our children Arabic. So when they hire us, we can communicate with them. "[/quote[

I doubt you do, and you'll be just as defiantly self-righteous later when your kids can't speak the common language enough to get a job. Once they are the biggest population, won't your rules apply to them, and they'll be morally just in imposing their language on you, and forcing you not to speak your own?

As I see the Muslims streaming into this country by the masses as well as into the European countries and having babies at a faster rate than either the Americans or the Europeans, do we just roll over and say ok the Arabic language is now the new "worldwide" language in all countries including our own?

Oh no, not the Muslims! I know you're making a joke here at Baker's expense, but there's no way that Arabic could be a major world language. For one thing it has as many variants as Latin, and each is as more/less incomprehensible to each other as border French is to Stuttgardt German, but also not that many people speak it. Spanish is likely to take a role as a second language in the US within the next few centuries, but no matter how many people become Muslims or Mexicans English is likely to hold the prestige position in the linguistic strata.

Explaining the role of prestige languages in multilingual communities is probably a little overly indepth for this kind of forum, but trust me on this: English is likely to be top dog in the US for the indefinite term. It's the language of business, political power and technology. Hardly anything prestigious is expressed in lesser dialects of English, let alone Spanish, so you've got nothing to worry about if you're afraid for English.

If you're simply afraid you'll have to learn another language, don't worry - I'm sure there'll be some podunk town where you'll be able to live in fearful ignorance of change.

p.s...

they either need to fix the way the broken quote tags are handled, or fix the edit function so that when we flub them up we can fix them. Sorry about the bumbled quote in #52, but I get an error when I try to fix it.

Listen to yourself. "Taking over" as if people speaking their own language in their own neighborhoods is a sin. You wouldn't think that way if a bunch of whitebread Americans moved into those neighborhoods, "diluteing" latino culture. Face it, it isn't us and them, it is just us. You choose not to communicate. Your friend chooses not to. That's your right, but it is also your right to deny yourself of many other advantages. Enjoy the results.

I'm trying very hard not to get ignorant on this subject. But I'll say this one more time....this is America! Make an effort to learn our lingo or leave! If the situation was reversed, using the Miami couple as an example. And if this was happening in Cuba, how long do you think the yankee invaders would get to stay? Fidel would have them thrown out on their ear in a hurry. As would Mexico. It's all well and good to stick up for someone who can't / doesn't want to speak our language. But put the shoe on the other foot before you speak about it. I be willing to bet "any" amount of money that they would not appreciate it. So why should we?

I'm luckier than you, having just been appointed a professor of English at a leading Asian university.

Congratulations Chak!  You will do well.

"I'm trying very hard not to get ignorant on this subject. But I'll say this one more time....this is America! Make an effort to learn our lingo or leave!"

Are you? I agree it is America, but they should do that just because you say so? Who's going to make them? You? I guess you'll need an interpreter to tell them, huh?

"And if this was happening in Cuba, how long do you think the yankee invaders would get to stay? Fidel would have them thrown out on their ear in a hurry."

Ah, Fidel. Good example to pattern one's behavior after.

"But put the shoe on the other foot before you speak about it. I be willing to bet "any" amount of money that they would not appreciate it. So why should we?"

I don't want their shoes on my foot. Last I heard our system was more fair, more free than theirs. You can hop on the boat, or stand there and wave bye, Dr. Guy, but you can't for a moment pretend that what you DON'T know makes you more viable.

You just don't have the ability to turn what you are saying about Mexicans around on yourself. Neither does KFC. The argument is "Why SHOULD I learn their language?" Duh. Because the fact is people who know it are better equipped.

"Why SHOULD I learn their language?" Duh. Because the fact is people who know it are better equipped.

That's why, as a youngster growing up in Germany, we learned German (whether pidgen, formal or some cross between the two) - to be able to communicate with the locals more effectively. As as been pointed out repeatedly, some picked up the language a little easier than others. Now, years later, I'm still little past the "pointy-talky" stage. But you know what happened? When the locals saw the ATTEMPT to speak in their language - that small gesture of respect for them - it opened many doors.

I have no problems with people whose native language is Spanish (or Korean or German, etc) speaking that to others who speak the language. When they make the attempt, no matter how broken, to speak to me in English, my estimation of them goes up. Between my limited Spanish and their limited English (and occasionally other languages thrown in for fun/entertainment) we can understand each other.

Having said that, I think it's deliberately obtuse (and/or lazy) for us to assume that everyone else has to learn English. Why? Why should everyone else have to learn something to be able to communicate with me? If I want to be able to make my point, I should be the one to bear the burden of learning to communicate.

God help the poor soul that gets stuck talking to me in Spanish when I'm drunk enough to confuse it with French and start spouting off in a mixture of the two ...

*hic* dohn-day-estaaaaah... mon car keys, mon-soor... *hic*

Wow finally I can reply. JU has prevented me from posted for couple of days...

Anyway...

Baker, you're right about Indians. We simply took over and out-bred them. (And disease we bought didn't help them too...)

Maybe we would end up speaking Spanish in USA here. Maybe not. If you try to hold back the tide by locking USA into frozen state, thats exactly what you will get, USA that will never ever change while other countries keeps up the evolution. IE: technology advances.