The denial of black holes seems to lie in the myth that everything must be seen to be real.  That kind of stomps all over the fact that man has more than one sense, and other senses can be used to determine the presence or absence of something.  Black Holes are very real.  That we cannot see them does not make them fantasy.  We cannot see air either, but we can feel it when it blows, smell it when it stinks and even taste it if it is dirty enough.

Sight is an important sense.  But it is not the only one.

you are correct.  But in science, theory is a very big notion.  There are precious few "facts" in science".  If something has advanced to the theory level, that would be taken as fact to most lay people.  AGW is not even a theory and you see the hysterical rantings of its proponents.  It is merely a flawed hypothesis.

Be careful when denigrating a scientific theory.  For in scientific theory, you exist, but not in fact.

"Despite all the evidence"? And now I'm accused of altering the evidence? C'mon! My point is what substantial evidence? There is none.

Again I offer this:

As far as I can tell, scientists gave a mathematical calculaton a name, Black Hole.  So, Black holes exist on paper, but do they in reality? They point to the universe where radiational activity occurs and declare that they are black holes.   

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DrG posts:

Your point is well made and well taken.

Maybe you don't, but many do.  Christ set up the church (body of believers) for a purpose.  He gave his life for the church.  We are to somehow organize ourselves to stay together.  I understand that many organizations have gone astray but there are still good bible believing churches out there.  Church isn't about explaining anything it's about coming together as a corporate body to worship God.  

The Word of God is very clear that different people have different gifts.  The church body is likened to a physical body.  We are not made up physically of all arms or all legs.  It's the same as the church.  Not all are preachers or teachers.  Not all are gifted with discernment.  There are many gifts to make a church work effectively.  Some have the gift of compassion, some teaching, some preaching, some helps, etc.  If everyone in the church had just compassion or helps they wouldn't be able to discern what was truth and what was not effectively but they would be a lovely group of people to be around. 

The whole reason for the church is to work together as a body as they worship God and edifty each other.  The stronger body parts help the weaker parts but all the parts are necessary to make a whole.  I've been gifted as a teacher.  Many do not understand the scriptures so I help them.  Maybe you don't need help because you understand it so perfectly but many are illiterate (especially today) when it comes to biblical teachings.  I've met young people who never even heard of Abraham, or Noah, or Adam or even understand what Christmas is all about. 

me too. 

Lula you keep asking the same question.  I never ever said that we need to jump on another planet.  I specificially said while his premise is the same (the earth is finate) his solution is different (we need to look for alternative planets to inhabit) because we believe God has everything under his control and that's why he's told us these things MUST happen first. 

Scripture as I gave you is saying the earth is groaning, the time is drawing near for its demise and that's where we are in agreement with Hawking.  Hawking is backing up scripture but in a secular scientific way.  That's all. 

 Jesus made it clear there is an end of the age coming and he gave us the signs in Matt 24.  Increasing wars, diseases, earthquakes, pestilences and death, will be the beginning.  Not to mention lots of deception and falling away of the spiritual.  He also said the love of many will grow cold.   He called this time birthpangs and I believe that's where we are today.  

It's like I keep saying both sides (secular/science and biblical) have the same evidence we just have different interpretations on what the evidence means. 

I'm starting to think you're coming out of the RCC B.T. and if so, you're preaching to the choir here.  First of all I don't believe in a hierarchy in the church.  Like I said we are a body working together.  Is the leg better than an arm?  Is the brain better than the heart? 

"For the body is not one member but many.  If the foot shall say Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body, is it therefore not of the body?  And if the ear shall say, because I am not the eye I am not of the body, is it therefore not of the body?  If the whole body were an eye where would be the hearing?  If the whole were hearing where were the smelling?  But God set the members every one of them in the body as it has pleased him...and the eye cannot say to the hand I have no need of you nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.  No, much more those members of the body which seem to be more feeble are necessary.  And those members of the body which we think to be less honourable (bowels?) upon thse we bestow more abundant honor and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness."  1 Cor 12

It's the same with the members of a church.  A Pastor is to shepherd his flock, but NOT to lord it over them and act high and mighty.  If so, time to find a new church or organization.  Jesus is the head of the church and he gave his life for it.  He served the church.  He did not proudly prance around as better than the lowly people under him.  He got on their level, became one of them.  He was a nobody who came from two nobodies even though in reality he was a very big somebody.   That's why he said "the first shall become last and the last first." 

Actually Basmas there is nothing in the book about black holes for or against.  Lula just doesn't believe in the black hole theory evidently.  Don't blame the book. 

Lula:  Here's an article on black holes from Answers In Genesis which, as you know, is Christian backed and they are defending the black hole theory. 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n1/black-holes-evidence

In fact they said:

Black holes are real phenomena in our universe. These massive objects produce such a strong gravitational pull that not even light can escape. 

Da Vinici was a Christian.  I'm fairly certain by reading some of his philosophy was a fairly devote one at that. 

How is doing unto others part of the law of nature.  Also, as Doc pointed out many wars were fought that weren't 'religious' backed.

If you did do away with Religion there would still be war.  Because wars are generally not fought over religion but land, resources, and occasional power hungry individual.

Whether you want to admit it or not there are universal truths.  A right angle is 90 degree angle.  In China, its still 90 degrees.  In the Artic circle its still 90 degrees.  I could say that a right angle is 83 degrees or could give you a bet that my right angle is bigger than yours (if you didn't take my bet then you're a lepton because you would win) but that doesn't matter because its 90 degrees no matter what anyone says or hard someone tries to say otherwise.    Even if there were some people that never heard of a right angle it still would be 90 degrees. 

That's Truth, Truth has and will always be.  You can say that all religions are the same which isn't true for they each believe in something different.  They may have some similarities, but for the most part are different.

Shakespeare lived in the late 1500s, so on scheme of things not too long ago. In all of his popularity and he was very popular when he was alive, we still lost several of his plays even a few that were performed at the time we lost.  The Dead Seas Scrolls shows that the Tanckh has been accurately kept.  Even from a historical aspect, its good.  For a nation to show all of its screw ups in its history especially nations in that same period was unheard of.

BoobzTwo posts:

First, by religion I mean that act of justice by which we render to God both privately as individuals, and publicly as social beings, the honor, worship, gratitude and obedience due Him, and in the way prescribed by Him. 

On the other page someone provided a handy dandy chart of the world religions. A comparative study proves that only one of those listed (Christianity) is Divinely-revealed true religion, while all the rest, however lofty their teachings, prove to be humanly invented religions.

True Christian faith cannot lead one into error. The reason is becasue there is only one truth. We prove that God has said a thing and believe becasue He has said it. Doubt could be possible only could God be deceived or deceive mankind. But He could not. He knows all things and is Truth itself. Also He has given abundant external signs to confirm His revelation. True Christianity is certainly right and knows better because God is right and knows better.

Almighty God gives each one of us sufficient intelligence and reason to be able to believe what He has revealed.

Believe it or not, accept it or not, all good comes from God. Every one of us is capable of doing good work. To do good or right  implies that good or right ought to be done. Ought supposes some kind of law. And all law derives its force from some kind of a lawgiver.

Now consider this. To do good pushes us back to doing good for the sake of the Supreme Author of all good and right. No one can do good or do right if he ignores God for without God he cannot prove that what he thinks to be good or right is good or right or has any binding force at all.

Thanks KFC, I don't fault anyone for their beliefs, I just don't care to proselytized to. That doesn't mean people can't discuss it openly. At the very least everyone should recognize the good things the church (and synagogue or mosque) does for their communities. The government seems to be trying to supplant this work, but who knows the communities better? As for the personal aspect, we are all headed for the truth. I'm glad there are folks out there to pray for the rest of us, it can't hurt.

Lula, you know I do understand why some would find globalization attractive, everyone living in harmony, is sounds good. Call me a pessimist, I just feel aspects of this trend will be abused. Once the US is just like the rest of the world, who is the white knight when something goes wrong? Who looks to the Congo (not knocking the Congo, just an example) for leadership, bravery in the face of tyranny?

Don't get me started on the UN.... there's your irrefutable proof about "black holes" at least as far as money that could be better spent is concerned! Just one more bureaucracy to skim the donated funding off the top.

KFC,

Thanks for post 65.

I'll not belabor the point any longer except to say that I agree with your post 54 which imo contradicts some of your statments in the original article. 

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KFC posts:

I have no problem whatsoever with understanding the Black Hole as theory. Unfortunately, with Hawking and others, scientists now call Black holes real phenomena in our universe. My question remains unanswered....Are they really real?

Do you know that Hawking believes that at the heart of Black Holes are singularities and went on to calculate the entire universe could have sprung from a Black hole singularity. This singularity is called the Big Bang cosmic origin and expansion of the universe and all that's in it. Yep...he's selling stellar evolution... and I'm not buying it. Why? Becasue I believe the Holy Bible. In fact,  to believe this turns Our Creator and Lord Jesus Christ into a liar for He said that Adam and Eve were there "from the beginning of the creation" in St.Mark 10:6, referring to the account in Genesis 1:26-27 not several billion years after the beginning of creation. 

The Black hole fits stellar evolution so well that it pushes God so far out that He is eliminated altogether. So, if this is the sense in which we are to understand Black holes as real phenomena, I'd say to Basmas that the Good Book does indeed have something against black holes.

Nitro Cruiser posts:

This is very profound.

And this is not only smart but very nice to say. 

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Yeah. The problem is while the Globalists will promise every one living in harmony, they won't deliver on it.

Remember that many find Socialism and Marxism attractive too.

Ha...I know you understand when you say this!

There is a master plan to rule the world and this is no conspiracy theory!!!

A good read (490 pages) on this is called "Hope of the Wicked" by Ted Flynn. He gives these statements of fact presented by the "greats" of this world.

"It is the sacred principles enshrined in the UN Charter to which the AMerican people will henchforth pledge their allegiance." Pres. George Bush addressing the UN General Assembly 2/1/92.

"This regionalization is in keeping with the Tri-Lateral Plan which calls for a gradual convergence of East and West, ultimately leading toward the goal of one world government. National sovereignty is no longe a viable concept." Zbigniew Brzezinski, National Secretary to Pres. Jimmy Carter. 

"Nationhood as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty wasn't such a great idea after all." Strobe Talbot, former deputy, Sec. of State and Bill Clinton's Oxford roomate. in Time, July 1992.

I believe them. They are deadly serious.

you got that right and I'll put you on "the list." 

Here is a simply answer for you.  Yes they are really real.  They exist in this universe at the this time in the same way that you exist. 

Your existence to me is as real as the black holes, |I have never seen you, touched you, smelt you or heard you.  I have seen a lot of evidence that you exist and your existence follows on from the most likely explanation of all the evidence.  There remains the possibility that your posts have all happened by chance and you are just programming errors in the board or that I have misunderstood the evidence - the same applies to each and every person on this board that you have had no contact with outside these boards however that explanation is rather unlikely to say the least.  That is the same way as black holes.