A Marriage Made In Paradise
Published on May 14, 2010 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion

Last weekend I was asked to speak at a woman's luncheon for Mother's Day.  When I inquired as to what they wished for a subject matter they left it up to me.  So I thought about it for a day or so.  Then I came up with Eve.  Why not?  Afterall she was the mother of us all.  Since I've never heard a Mother's Day Sermon on this topic I decided I'd tackle it myself.   

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.  Even so, the message gets clouded by the cultures.  In the Eastern culture we know that women are surpressed.  In the Western culture women are aggressive and domineering more than ever.  During the days of Christ the Jews kept their women as subservient.  I heard that that it's written about the Torah that it would be better to burn it than to teach it to women! 

But what does the bible say about woman's role in society?  What is their purpose?  Jesus did much to elevate women during His time on earth and they loved Him.  It was to a woman He first announced He was the Messiah.  It was to women He first revealed Himself as risen from the dead.  He delivered at least one woman from unjust justice. 

Women were used mightily by God.  I think of Rahab who God used to save two spies facing sure death as a result if caught.  I think of Miriam who was a prophetess and ministered alongside her brother Moses.  Deborah was a judge and leader who was chosen to deliver God's people during the terrible days of the Judges.  Esther helped save her people, the Jews, from sure extermination and Lydia was a business woman who was instrumental in starting a first century church out of her home. 

So we come to Eve.  We know very little of this first lady.  We do know she was God's final creative work in the first week.  She was also a companion for Adam.  But there's more. 

Everything started out well in the garden although it didn't end that way thanks to Eve and her husband.  Eve led her husband into direct violation of God's revealed will to them.  So they were banished from Paradise.  She is a very human portraid of falling into sin but also of picking up the faith afterwards. 

She was created for a unique role in creation.  She was to minister to Adam and with Adam being his help-mate.  She was designed to complete him as well as assist him.  We read this in Genesis 1:26-28:

"And God said Let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.  And God blessed them and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 

Did you see the word "them?"  This was for both of them. A job for two.  These things were too great for them to do alone.  We see a few things about God's purposes for mankind here. 

1.  To be like Him; to reflect God's image in creation.  It took both of them to do this.  We think of God as a He and that pronoun is used but it takes both man and woman to accurately reflect God's image.  We think of God as mighty, powerful, just, logical, strong, etc. but He's also depicted in scripture as loving, tenderhearted, merciful, gracious etc.  We see both male and female characteristics in Him. 

2.  They were to rule over creation.  They were given authority over all the earth.  Together.

3.  They were to reproduce; be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.  Together.

So zooming in on Eve let's look at why she was created.  What is her purpose for being created?  Gen 2:18-22:

"And the Lord said It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper for him.  And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them and whatsoever Adam called every living creature that was the name.  And Adam gave names to all cattle and to the fowl of the air and to every beast of the field but for Adam there was not found a helper for him.  And the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh.  And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman and brought her to the man." 

1.  Adam was not complete by himself.

2.  It was not good.  Even in Paradise something was not good.  Seven times, it was mentioned in the first chapter after God created, God said that "it was good" until we get here to 2:18 which says "it was not good." 

3.  Man was completed with need.  He was created incomplete.  He was made complete with Eve. 

4.  She was to be a helper suitable for him. 

Looking a bit further we can see some principles for the marriage relationship right here that brought this first couple together in Holy Matrimony. 

Genesis 2:23-24

"And Adam said this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man.  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh."

We see that God brought Eve to Adam.  It wasn't Adam's job to find a mate which makes me wonder looking around today at all the broken marriages.  How many consulted God in the choosing of their mate?   What would it have been like if they did?  God know more than we do so why don't we ask Him first?  

Unlike the animals she was like him.  She was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.  She was perfect for him.  The relationship necessitated him to leave his mother and father.  Obviously this was meant for future generations because these two were a special first couple with no parents.  This marriage required cleaving and the Hebrew word implies "to be joined by commitment."   Marriage is a commitment not a feeling or an emotion.  We need to stick it out, stay together and work things out as much as possible with us. 

Marriage results in being one together.  This one flesh points to the physical body but in principle also includes all that a person is; mind, emotions, will etc.  One cares for the other as one would care for oneself. 

And marriage results in nakedness without shame.  They had no shame.  They were naked and it was good.  This, again, goes beyond the physical.  We need to be open and up front with each other.  There should be no hiding, no secrets from each other. 

So everything started out well.  Until Eve was tempted.  Then everything changed.  She entered into a discussion with a serpent.  Is it no wonder women and snakes don't get along today?  We'll start there next time.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Comments (Page 3)
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on Jun 04, 2010

Mary had been conceived through the Holy Spirit and both based on Scripture (of which I provided the passages.)

Mary was NOT conceived thru the Holy Spirit. Not biblical in the least. Otherwise you'd show me. Christ was the ONLY one conceived this way and to say otherwise is to teach heresy.

oops my mistake.....Typing too fast I guess.....Christ was conceived through the Holy Spirit.

..........................

KFC posts:

Mary WAS NOT the mother of God. She was mother of the very human baby Jesus. That's putting Mary in a place where she was not intended to be.

Mary was indeed the Mother of God and from all eternity was intended to be the Mother of God, so it's hardly putting her in a place where she was not intended to be when calling her by that title. God intended it as such, so you'll have to take it up with Him.

Then you yoke yourself with Arian and Nestorius

no that's not it at all. They denied his deity. I'm not denying his deity.

 

The Arianism heresy in 336 denied that Jesus is God and it's quite clear that you do the same here.  

In 431, Nestorianism taught exactly what you wrote above. They taught that the BLessed Virgin Mary is not the Mother of God but only of the human man, Christ.

Both these heresies have been condemned by the Church and that's how I know for sure they aren't true.

 

on Jun 04, 2010

you disagree becasue those exact words aren't found in Scripture!

no I disagree because the principle is NOT found in scripture.

Your comment is interesting and good to know.  Of the Blessed Virgin Mary as to her spousal relationship as per "conceived through the Holy Spirit", of her being always "full of grace" and as being the Mother of God, not only are these Scriptural but the principal behind the doctrine is found there as well. You just object becasue it's the CC that developed the doctrine and for that reason alone you bristle and discard the teaching.    

 

on Jun 04, 2010

It's a twisting of scripture to make it fit your theolgy that Mary was somewhat divine herself. She wasn't.

Another false accusation.

This is just grasping at straws on your part.  

I have no such theology and no where can you point that I claim such an erroneous thing as Mary was Divine or somewhat Divine. 

And furthermore, there is no Catholic theology that Mary was Divine or somewhat Divine.

 

 

 

on Jun 04, 2010

And furthermore, there is no Catholic theology that Mary was Divine or somewhat Divine.

of course there is and I've got the chapter and verse from the Vatican to prove so.   You can go to the Vatican's website and it says so right there.  I have this: 

Octobri Mense

Encylical of Pope Leo XIII

On The Rosary

Item 4

(5) with equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.  (6) Thus as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no man goes to Christ but by His Mother"

Item 13

"saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through MaryThrough her may all the faithful strive to obtain from her Divine Son.."

Sep 22, 1891

Now compare this to what the bible ACTUALLY says:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."  1 Timothy 2:5

"And whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you shall ask anything in my name, I will do it."  John 14:13-14

"After this manner therefore pray "our Father which art in heaven, hallowed by your name...."  Matthew 6:9

 

 Besides all that I have a friend who grew up Catholic (and has since left the RCC) but her old RCC bible in the back under Mary's name says "co-redeemer." 

 

 

 

 

 

on Jun 05, 2010

That's why it's biblical to say that Mary was the mother of the human baby Jesus, NOT the mother of God.

Still persisting with this denial.

Moses foretold that the Messias (the Christ) would come from the seed of "the woman" Gen 3:15. And Isaias 7:14 said he would be 'the Emmanuel, God with us." "God the Mighty 9:6, and so therefore "the woman" would be the Mother of God.

You won't call the Blessed Virgin the Mother of God, but Saint Elizabeth did....Go back to St. Luke 1:35, 43..."....and the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the HOLY which shall be born.....

and then the Blessed Virgin Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth...and upon hearing Mary, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost  and asked v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?"

 

 

 

 

on Jun 05, 2010

St.Luke 1:28, Gabriel greeted Mary by saying "Hail Full of grace, the Lord is with thee".

Catholics believe that she was always "full of grace" ...this was a special grace God gave her at the moment she was conceived.

 

kfc posts:

The wording in the Greek is "charitoo" which means endowed with grace and means highly favored. She was blessed "among" women not "above" women. The angel spoke to Daniel in much the same way in Daniel 10:19 calling him greatly beloved.

In Greek, "full of grace" would be pleres charitos which is used for St. Stephen in Acts 6:8.  However, the "full of grace" used by St.Luke to describe the Blessed Virgin Mary is "kecharitomene". You can see the "charito" in it, but it has a different meaning. "Kecharitomene" means much more both theologically and philologically. "Kecharitomene" means a transformation of the subject; a perfection of the subject, not just to look upon or be regarded with favor.

The newer translations have verse 28 as "Rejoice oh highly favored daughter" or something close to that.  "Charitos" here gives the impression that the favor bestowed on Mary was indistinguishable from other women like you have mentioned who were also favored by God.

Anyway, kecharitomene indicates a perfection of grace, not only intensively but extensively and this is a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God. 

 

on Jun 06, 2010

sooooo no answer to post #34?  Are you skipping it?  No rebuttal? 

v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?"

very good come back Lula.  Really.  But the "Lord" that you speak of is not all in caps.  Let me explain.

There are many names for God.  There is Elohim, Adonai, El Roi, El Elyon, YHWH, etc and many compound names as well.

To help us know which is in view the translators built into their translation a hint.  I know the KJV does this but I checked your DR and it doesn't do it so you can't see any distinction.  For example in the Shema (Deut 6:4) my translation says:

"Hear O Israel, The LORD, (Jehovah) our God (Elohim) is one LORD (Jehovah)." 

Moses was telling the people their God was Jehovah.  A specific God while other Elohims were pagan gods (Elohim) 

When you see in some translations:

GOD (all caps) it is YHWH or what we say is Jehovah

LORD (all caps) is another way to say Jehovah

God (lowercase) is Elohim and is a generic form of God.  You can have pagan gods and it's Elohim as well.  What's interesting is that when it says Elohim concerning pagan gods it's always plural but when it says Elohim concerning the true God its translated singular.  Like "In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth."

Lord (lowercase as you quoted with Elizabeth) is Adonai and means master, owner and the word in Greek is "kurios."  The word Lord is used many times in the NT.  Many called Jesus Lord but they were not calling him GOD or God. 

Now Elizabeth as well as Mary had no idea that Jesus was God.  They were not told that only that he would be the one they had been waiting for.  Remember the Jews had waited for the one like Moses who would come to set them free.  Nobody got the fact that he was God until after the resurrection.  Remember Thomas saying "my Lord and my God?"  He finally got it.  Mary pondered things in her heart it said.  She didn't quite understand exactly the full meaning of who her child really was until the crucifixtion.  

Even in the first few centuries and even today many question the deity of Christ.  Was he really God?  Was he a teacher?  Even Peter stood up and said "you are the Christ the son of the Living God."   Peter didn't call him God there either. 

Despite the teaching of the RCC nowhere in the NT does Mary receive the title "mother of God."  God is eternal.  Mary was not.  God was never conceived or born but has always existed.  Mary was the mother of the human Jesus, not his eternal divine nature. 

Mary is not the mother of God or the queen of heaven.  She plays no role in the redemption of mankind nor does she intercede for them or hear their prayers.

She is an example to all believers of how to respond obediently, worshipfully and joyfully to the word of God.  That's where her true greatness lies. 

Like Noah Mary had "found favor in the eyes of the Lord" (Gen 6:8).  God had sovereignly chosen to use her to help carry out his purpose.  It was not her merit or worthiness but Gpod's grace which like all His ways is quite beyond our human understanding. 

One of the RCC's largest errors is the turning of this self-proclaimed humble slave of God into the exalted queen of heaven.  Such worship of Mary which would have appalled and horrified her, is nothing less than idolatry. 

Catholicism's elevation of Mary finds no support in Scripture and the concept of the queen of heaven in the OT is in connection with ancient pagan religion. 

To worship Mary as the queen of heaven is to mix paganism with truth and to blaspheme the true King of heaven. 

Another thought.  God is not only one person of the trinity. So to say that Mary is the mother of God makes no sense.  Jesus is God, yes, but to say that God is Jesus is incorrect.  God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Mary gave birth to the second person of the trinity who took on flesh.  Mary could not be the mother of God because she is not eternal.  She was not before Jesus.   He always is and was. 

 

 

 

on Jun 06, 2010

However, the "full of grace" used by St.Luke to describe the Blessed Virgin Mary is "kecharitomene". 

The newer translations have verse 28 as "Rejoice oh highly favored daughter" or something close to that. "Charitos" here gives the impression that the favor bestowed on Mary was indistinguishable from other women like you have mentioned who were also favored by God.

"thou that art highly favored" is indeed one word in the Greek and is "kecharitomene" which is the perfect passive participle of the verb "charitoo" (also in Eph 1:6) where it's translated "make us accepted." 

The base of this verb is the noun "charis" which is translated grace.  It also means favor. 

so "favored one" or "you who are higly favored" will fit. 

Remember Grace is unmerited favor.  It's used here for Mary but also for all believers Eph 1:6 (the only other occurrence of the verb in the NT). 

She is highly favored because she is the recipient of God's grace. 

Some say (like you) that Luke implies that a cetain grace has been found in Mary's character.  Maybe so but the parallel in Eph 1:6 shows that the grace in view here is that which is given all believers apart from any merit of their own.  Because of this she then says "My spirit rejoices in God my Savior." 

 

 

 

on Jun 08, 2010

 lula posts:

Eve was, in a natural sense, according to the flesh, the mother of all the living and the Blessed Mother Mary was so in a supernatural sense the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

kfc posts:

you can back this up with scripture?

 14

Where does it say that Mary is the mother of all the spiritual?

I showed you exactly where it says Eve was the mother of all living (Gen 3:20). So far you haven't proven your end of things.

As you read this, keep in mind the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Eve is the mother of all the living in a physical, natural sense, according to flesh and blood. Eve disobeyed God's will and brought death to mankind. But God in His Mercy and Goodness promised a Redeemer. Through her full belief, faith and cooperation with God's will, Mary brought Life into the world that through His merits we might have new life of grace.

Spiritual motherhood is as real and profound as is the motherhood by nature. The Blessed Virgin's spiritual motherhood is rooted in the New Covenant  of Grace.  

To be a mother pertains directly to life. As Eve was the mother of the living, so Mary was the Mother of the Redeemed. Those who have life in Christ through their baptism also have His mother as their own. Jesus is conceived by the Holy SPirit in the Virgin Mary's womb and from His conception, Christ's humanity is filled with the Holy Spirit without measure. It's from His fullness that we have received grace upon grace. St.John 3:34; 1:16; Col. 1:18.

St.Like 1: 28 tells us that the Virgin Mary is "full of grace." Then Gabriel says to her, "the Lord is with you." At this moment of the Annunciation, the Lord God the Father is with her moreso than with any other human person....He's taking shape within her,  fills her soul, and in her womb.  

By His virginal conception Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the the new life of all God's children adopted in the Holy Spirit through Divine Faith. V. 34, She asks "How can this be?" She's told how and although she doesn't fully understand, by her faith she gave her fiat, "....Let it be done unto me according to thy word."

The Virgin Mary cooperated through faith and obedience in God's salvation plan. St.Thomas Aquinas, a Father of the Church,  wrote that she uttered her "yes" in the name of all human nature and in contrast to Eve who disobeyed God, by Mary's faith and obedience, she became the new Eve, the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

The Church teaches that Jesus gave His Mother to us...St.John 19:27.


 


 

on Jun 08, 2010

lula posts:

And furthermore, there is no Catholic theology that Mary was Divine or somewhat Divine.

of course there is and I've got the chapter and verse from the Vatican to prove so. You can go to the Vatican's website and it says so right there. I have this:

Octobri Mense

Encylical of Pope Leo XIII

On The Rosary

Item 4

(5) with equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. (6) Thus as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no man goes to Christ but by His Mother"

Item 13

"saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary. Through her may all the faithful strive to obtain from her Divine Son.."

Sep 22, 1891

Now compare this to what the bible ACTUALLY says:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5

"And whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:13-14

"After this manner therefore pray "our Father which art in heaven, hallowed by your name...." Matthew 6:9

Besides all that I have a friend who grew up Catholic (and has since left the RCC) but her old RCC bible in the back under Mary's name says "co-redeemer."

sooooo no answer to post #34? Are you skipping it? No rebuttal?

 Pope Leo XIII's Encyclical on the Holy Rosary doesn't/ isn't teaching that the Blessed Virgin Mary is Divine or somewhat Divine. Period. At the end of the prayer, we ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to "pray of us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

You offer 1Tim. 2:5 and St.John 14: 13-14 as your proof texts that it is not legitimate from a Biblical POV to hold the Mother of Christ to be a mediatior....that it denies the teaching of 1Timothy 2:5. But you are entirely disregarding the preceeding 4 verses, 2:1-4, where St.Paul instructs Christians to pray for one another, meaning it can't interfere with Christ's Mediatiorship.

"I urge that prayers, supplicatons, petitions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone....This is good and pleasing to God our Savior."  We know from reading the Apocalypse 5:8 this exhortation to pray for others applies to Saints in Heaven who intercede for us by offering our prayers to God.

What Pope Leo wrote is in complete agreement with Scripture. We are all mediatiors in some respect between God and our fellow man when we pray on their behalf. This doesn't argue against CHrist being the sole Mediatior becasue our efforts are entirely dependent upon HIM. In a far more perfect way than any one else, since the Blessed Virgin Mary is full of grace she shares His mediation only in a secondary sense.

Her status as intermediary of all graces exists in a double sense. First, she gave the world its Redeemer, the Source of all graces,and in this sense she is the channel of all graces. She freely cooperated with God's plan St.Luke 1:38 at that moment of the Annunciation. Second, as our spiritual Mother, she interecedes for us in Heaven. Christ remains the ONe Mediatior and His role is not lessoned one iota becasue she is allowed to assist Him.

Why should I go to Mary for heavenly favors when I can go directly to God? Becasue she is more pure than I am and has a more personal realtionship than I do. And this is Biblical too. "The prayer of the just availeth much" says St.James 5:16. Surelly the Saints in Heaven are foremost among the just having conformed to the will of God.   

If St.Paul who wrote in Timothy thought it fitting to cry out to his fellow brethren to "help me in your prayers to God for me" why can't you or I call upon the most Blessed of Saints, the Virgin Mary for "prayers to God"?

 

 

on Jun 09, 2010

To be a mother pertains directly to life. As Eve was the mother of the living, so Mary was the Mother of the Redeemed.

You keep saying this.  I say no.  You have no backing outside your RCC.  That puts her on equal footing with God and she was a created being.  You are worshiping the created not the creator when you say such things.  I see in scripture where it says that Eve is the mother of all living and I also see where it says Jerusalem is the mother of us all but I see nothing that says Mary is.  Nothing.  Not even a hint.  I'm sure that's for a reason. 

All that you've shown me is what I've been saying and that is that she was a great example of faith, love, and obedience for the God she worshipped.  She was a humble servant and is being made to be something (by the RCC) she isn't and it takes away from her when it's done. 

the Father is with her moreso than with any other human person....He's taking shape within her, fills her soul, and in her womb.

no, it was the Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity.  Not the father, who is the first person of the Trinity.  We see many instances when the holy spirit fills believers both in the OT and the NT.  The diff here is she would bring in the Messiah thru her filling of the Holy Spirit.  The rest of us are to bring forth other gifts that God has endowed us with.  Her gift was to be the mother of the Messiah.  No one else had that job.  Only she alone.  But that doesn't make her holier than any other created human.  She just had a diff role. 

The Virgin Mary cooperated through faith and obedience in God's salvation plan. St.Thomas Aquinas, a Father of the Church, wrote that she uttered her "yes" in the name of all human nature and in contrast to Eve who disobeyed God, by Mary's faith and obedience, she became the new Eve, the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

so other's cooperated as well.  Read about Paul when Jesus approached him on the road to Damascus he said "what will you have me to do?"  Abraham, immediately got up and did what he was told to do in Ur.  So?  All this shows is they were obedient to God's word and followed him.  When Jesus said "come follow me" they left their nets and followed him.  So?  You're adding to God's word here saying that Mary's obedience made her the mother of us all.  It's not there Lula.  It's part of your Maryology you've been taught.  Mary knew the scriptures that a promised one would come.  When she heard the words she knew it was true because it was expected.  Eve didn't have the information that Mary had.  You can't make this contrast because they are two diff situations. 

The Church teaches that Jesus gave His Mother to us...St.John 19:27.

I'm glad you said the church teaches this because the bible doesn't. 

If St.Paul who wrote in Timothy thought it fitting to cry out to his fellow brethren to "help me in your prayers to God for me" why can't you or I call upon the most Blessed of Saints, the Virgin Mary for "prayers to God"?

because it's clear in scripture we aren't supposed to pray to the dead.  We've been over this many tmes before Lula showing me you just don't really want the truth.   So I'm not going to regurgitate it.  It's perfectly fine for us to pray for one another and we've been shown to do this and commanded to do this.  But we are NOT to pray to people who have died to intercede for us especially since we have Jesus as our intercessor.  Why would we need to?  Paul never said for us to pray to him when he passed on either. 

As far as the prayers of the just.  If we are true genuine Christians then we are justified.  We are justified in Him.  He justifies us thru his grace. 

You haven't shown me anywhere where we are encouraged to pray to Mary or any dead person.  You won't either because it's not there.   You may want to go back and read about Saul going to the dead for help.  It was his undoing.  It's not a good example to follow.

 

 

 

 

 

on Jun 09, 2010

To be a mother pertains directly to life. As Eve was the mother of the living, so Mary was the Mother of the Redeemed.

You keep saying this. I say no. You have no backing outside your RCC. That puts her on equal footing with God and she was a created being. You are worshiping the created not the creator when you say such things.

This is your third false accusation, but it's evident you want to judge me as such.

........................

lula posts:

St.Like 1: 28 tells us that the Virgin Mary is "full of grace." Then Gabriel says to her, "the Lord is with you." At this moment of the Annunciation, the Lord God the Father is with her moreso than with any other human person....He's taking shape within her, fills her soul, and in her womb.

no, it was the Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity. Not the father, who is the first person of the Trinity. We see many instances when the holy spirit fills believers both in the OT and the NT. The diff here is she would bring in the Messiah thru her filling of the Holy Spirit.

KFC,

Ah, good to see that you recognize the Blessed Trinity in the Annunciation and the Incarnation and  the Blessed Virgin Mary. She does have indeed a tri-relationship with the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and here it is. God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit all present with her at the Annunciation and the Incarnation.

But that doesn't make her holier than any other created human.

See where you wrote: The diff here is she would bring in the Messiah thru her filling of the Holy Spirit.

Well, what does being filled with the Holy Spirit mean? In post 39 the first thing I cautioned was to keep in mind the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That means something big here since Mary soul was filled with the Holy Spirit...filled with sanctifying grace. Her soul was filled with grace means there was no where sin could be. This filling of the HS means that she and she alone was in a state of sanctifying grace and therefore holier than the rest of humankind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on Jun 09, 2010

because it's clear in scripture we aren't supposed to pray to the dead. We've been over this many tmes before Lula showing me you just don't really want the truth.

Correct...I agree 100% we aren't to pray to the dead and Catholics do not do so when they pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary and ask her to intercede to God for us.

What's the truth? Are the Saints in Heaven dead? I'd say no...they are more alive than you and I.

You haven't shown me anywhere where we are encouraged to pray to Mary or any dead person. You won't either because it's not there.

It is there and I've already given you the Scripture.

lula wrote

We know from reading the Apocalypse 5:8 this exhortation to pray for others applies to Saints in Heaven who intercede for us by offering our prayers to God.

 

KFC posts: 

It's perfectly fine for us to pray for one another and we've been shown to do this and commanded to do this. But we are NOT to pray to people who have died to intercede for us especially since we have Jesus as our intercessor.

Do you want to debate what Apoc. 5:8 means?

 

 

on Jun 09, 2010

Do you want to debate what Apoc. 5:8 means?

why?   Are you all studied up on that from your RCC's commentaries? 

I agree 100% we aren't to pray to the dead and Catholics do not do so when they pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary and ask her to intercede to God for us.

she's dead physically Lula.  Her cares are not for this world anymore.  I'm sure she's quite busy in heaven worshipping the Father.  The earth is so far away to her now.  It's like a distant memory now.  Show me in scripture where it says Mary is to intercede for us.  I showed you where Christ was our ONLY mediator.  So how can there be another? 

What's the truth? Are the Saints in Heaven dead? I'd say no...they are more alive than you and I.

yes and no.  They are physically dead but are alive with God in spirit.  But that still doesn't give us any green light to pray to them.  Jesus was asked "teach us to pray" and he did.  What is so hard here Lula?  "Our Father which art in heaven...."  We are to petition the Father.  He's our father and as Jesus said he cares for us and listens to our prayers. 

It is there and I've already given you the Scripture.

no you haven't because there is no such thing. 

 

on Jun 09, 2010

What's the truth? Are the Saints in Heaven dead? I'd say no...they are more alive than you and I.

kfc posts:

yes and no. They are physically dead but are alive with God in spirit.

OK, this is a good start...keeping in mind that God is not God of the dead but of the living..St.Mark 12...

now it's time to read Hebrews 12:1 and Apoc. 5:8 to see just how alive and active the Saints in Heaven really are.

This "great cloud of witnesses" are helping us as we run with perseverance the race. Apoc. 5:8 tells us how.

t is there and I've already given you the Scripture.

KFC

no you haven't because there is no such thing.

Yes, KFC...it's there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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