kfc posts: 776

Sigh! re: the highlighted...Once more you show you don't understand of Sacred Tradition.

Here, Christ is establishing Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is Christ's teachings to the Apostles and they in turn to their legitimate successors who are Catholic priests and bishops as per the Book of Acts.  

How is Christ establishing Sacred Tradition here? What was Christ doing everytime He said, "It is written"?  He, as One having authority, was teaching the true meaning of Scripture. He was showing the Scriptures do not interpret themselves. He would respond to the Scribes and Pharisees by using Scripture precisely becasue they tried to trip Him up by using Scripture. Here, Our Lord demonstrated how they had wrong interpretations and so He corrected them by properly interpreting Scripture.

Christ's actions here do not at all argue that Scripture should be sola, or an authority in itself and the only authority. on the contrary, whenever Christ refers His hearers to the Scriptures, He also provides His infallible authoratitative interpretation of them demonstrating that Scriptures don't interpret themselves which is a sub teaching of Sola Scriptura.

Christ was the first Teaching Authority and Christ gave His teaching authority to the Chruch just before He sent them to teach and baptize in His name all nations until the end of the world. St.Matt. 28:19... The immediate rule of faith is the teaching authority of the Church...and authority to teach and interpret both Scripture and Tradition as St.Matt. 18: 17-18 shows.

No, you don't understand.  The religious leaders ADDED to the scriptures.  Has nothing to do with interpretation.  Case in point:

When the paralytic in John 5 was healed by Jesus the leaders had a hissy fit because Jesus and this lame man went against THEIR addition to the law.  They had 39 additions surrounding what you could and could not do on the Sabbath.  But when you go back to Ex 20 the only command was to work six days and rest on the seventh.  That's it.  No work on the Sabbath.  Period.   But here in John we read they were claiming this man broke the Sabbath.  Who was working?  The man for carrying his mat?  Yes according to them.   Jesus went right to the law and showed them their errors when this happend time and time again.   In a case like this he showed the Pharisees how they could circumcize (cut away) on the Sabbath (8th day after birth) and not break Moses law so why couldn't you heal on the Sabbath to make man whole?  They had no answer.  He answered and said to them that Sabbath was made for man (scriptural) and not man for the Sabbath (tradition). 

It had nothing to do with interpretation.  They were making up their own rules and laws and mixing them with the written word. 

The leaders had their own rules.  Just like the RCC do.  Many of their traditions have no basis in scripture.  So they are EXACTLY like the Pharisees.  They have ADDED to them. 

Sacred tradition is NOT biblical Lula.  Sola scriptura is VERY biblical.  Christ NEVER established tradition instead preaching AGAINST it many times.  He always went to the scriptures AGAINST the religious leaders.  Today the RCC are those leaders. 

End of story.  Let's move on.  You don't accept it.  That's fine.  Let's agree to disagree. 

You keep saying that it came around with Luther (even though I have shown through several 1st century church fathers thats not true). 

I can play that dumb game as well and say 'your incorrect doctrine came about during the council of Trent in the 16th century' its only been around since then.

Luther only brought it (scripture authority) back into light.  If you take a look at the 1st century church fathers you'll see clearly what they believed.  It wasn't Jesus' interpretation; it was how it was/is to be.

I'm still curious what traditions were Paul referring to in Timothy.  Obviously you being so enlighten (just like the gnostic and those sun worshippers) could enlighten us with what taditions he was referring to exactly?

The tactic that you are using was well recorded because the gnostics tried the same exact thing.  Saying we have these traditions and these help us accurately interpret scripture.

I hope you put the book of mormon, the quran, and the book of mithraism next to that book of traditions as well because that's the other problem/door your opening when you get on the path your on.

KFC, you're a bigger person than myself.

You know what? I agree with you.

They did make it up. Those were (and are) man-made additions to the law.

While the Torah does list dozens of activities specifically forbidden on the Sabbath it also speaks in a context.

(And oddly enough, while the Torah speaks of six days of work and one day of rest, many otherwise observant Jews in Jerusalem close their shops Friday at noon and do not follow the law of working six days and instead work less than 5 and a half.)

HA!  I remember that. It really messed with you when all you wanted was a good shwarma for lunch or you wanted to go to Peanuts to get some good hummus. 

The Irish Pub usually stayed opened beyond noon

I don't know if you know this Leauki (I'm not sure if they still do this or did it at them all), but in Sam Boucki (I'm not sure what the hebrew name of this pastry store chain is for I know it was different name than what the english was.  It was on Yafo right before Elisar street in Jerusalem.  It was the biggest pastry store in that area).  THey would always give extreme discounts on everything on Friday morning.  I remember there was this really really good looking girl working there (can't remember her name nor does it matter) she would always give me a ton of free stuff.  Not just to eat while standing there but also she would fill up the bag completely with pastry goodness!

While we're on this topic.  Leauki, have you been to the Bulgarian soup place (again I can't remember the Hebrew but I think in English it might have been translated The Soup Kitchen (I think). No, not the ones for the homeless) in Jerusalem? Its a small store on I think (I'm probably wrong though) on Yoel Moshe.  They always try to cram people in there and there's never enough room.  Some of the tables have checkers/chess boards printed directly on them.  That place had the best soup I have ever had.  If my memory serves me correctly all they served was soup and beverage.Do you know the place I'm talking about?  Also on top of the mountain of olives that chicken store has the best fries ever.  This is coming from a person who loves fries (or as you guys call them 'chips') and lives in the States.

I miss being there :'-<.

P.S. One more thing.  Leauki were you in Jerusalem when those Bears of Peace were there? Do you know what I'm talking about?  Statues of Bears from every single country around the world.  Trying promote world peace.  My friends and I use to call them the Bears of Intolerance. If not I'm not going to continue with this story because it would just be pointless. 

I once managed to replace a lost mobile phone on a Friday afternoon in Jerusalem! Fellow students assured me that this was widely considered an impossible feat.

And speaking of feet, it was tiresome.

Problem in Jerusalem is that there are so many religious people there that the only restaurants open on Shabbes are really unkosher places (that sell bacon with everything) around Ben Yehuda street.

A really good looking girl? Damn, I missed her.

Girls in Israel are so pretty, the thought of a really good looking one is almost too much for me.

I don't know the place (I am more a Haifa local) but will look for it now!

(The homeless soup kitchen is quite famous too. A friend of mine met his wife there when both volunteered.)

Ok, that place I know, I am sure.

But I don't like chips.

The great thing about Israel is that almost all food places are fairly excellent. You cannot easily go wrong.

I too.

We should organise a meet-up in Jerusalem for next year or so. You and I and Taltamir and the sort of thing. KFC could come too and perhaps squeeze a meeting into a holiday seeing-of-the-holy-sites thingy.

I didn't see them. It's sort of pointless. The world doesn't have to tell Israel about peace. Israel has been waiting for the Arabs to stop fighting since the Arabs first attacked the Jews.

If some bears want peace they should simply tell people to stop shouting "death to the Jews" and to refrain from attacking Jews. That would solve the problem with Israel "over-reacting" to attacks too.

Good finally, we know a similar place! The chicken I was not too impressed with (heck it was KFC like.  Obviously the restuarant not the individual here on JU).

The next statement about chips/fries caused great outraged and shock in myself.    Your statement must be the most unbiblical statement, ever. EVER! :->

I agree with your statement about the food being fairly excellent. Getting together would be cool, if the L-RD wills it.

Also while you're up on JU can you check this out: https://forums.joeuser.com/363496  Its my resume. You seem to know people.

I'm actually hoping to go with Marv Rosenthal in April.  He has been going 2-3 times a year now for 40 years.  He's in his 70's now so I want to go before he gets too old to do this anymore.  He knows Israel like the back of his hand.  I've never been to Israel and would love to have the experience. 

Our Lord Jesus Christ taught the one Christian faith to the Apostles, including St.Paul...they in turn handed down the one faith to others by way of both oral traditions and by letter. According to St.Matt. 18:19, Jesus sent them to teach the one Christian faith to the whole world until the end of time. Sacred Tradition began with Christ teaching His faith to the Apostles and they in turn handing down the full deposit of Faith, both written and unwritten (oral) to others they ordained or appointed as fit to teach. Sacred Tradition is a living, ongoing Divine authoritative teaching of the one Christian faith down through the ages that on Christ's promise will continue to the end of the world.  

Your and KFC's denial of the Divine authority of Sacred Tradition as a source of the one Christian Faith in defense of Luther's doctrine of Sola Scriptura would be amusing if it were not so misleading and dangerous.

TPP posts:

Anyone can find writings from the Church Fathers that affirm Sacred Scripture is inspired of God and an authoritative deposit of faith. The Church grants that!  To prove Sola Scriptura, your task would be to show the Chruch Fathers were committed to Sacred Scripture wholly and alone as the sole deposit of faith apart from the larger Sacred Tradition and ongoing community of memory (As St.Paul commanded "steadfastly holding on") of which it is part. That has not been done by you or anybody for that matter.

 To assert that the Chruch Fathers entertained views of Sola Scriptura (that the Bible and the Bible alone is the sole rule of the one Christian faith) is ridiculous.

In fact, the larger context of the Father's corpus of writings reveal a pattern that is anything but Protestant and cannot possibly have been derived from Sola Scriptura. The whole of the Chruch Father's wriitings breathes explicit Catholicism whether its the primacy, the Holy Eucharist, Mariology, to canons (rules) received from the Apostles, through oral Tradition.

St.Luke speaks of Sacred Tradition as "preaching in CHrist's name to all nations." This Apostolate was not for the Apostles alone, but for their successors, who were always to be received as Christ Himself ...10:16.

The teaching of Christ's  one Christian faith is to be learned not from the Bible alone, but from a divine, infallible teaching body until the end of the world. And this is clearly set forth by St.Paul....

"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe Him on whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they be sent? ........FAITH THEN COMETH BY HEARING....But I say, Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the whole world."

That men were to learn the one Christian faith not from the Bible alone or by the private interpretation of it, but from this permanent teaching Apostolate (called the Magisterium of His Chruch), is clear from the fact that the Apostles appointed successors to themselves and ordered them in turn to appoint others to carry on their work. All this is found in the Book of Acts.

This is where the commands to steadfaastly hold to the traditions of St.Paul to the Thessalonians and to Timothy comes in.

TPP posts:

If you really want to learn the answer to  your question, read the Book of Acts.

Apostolicity of ministry implies authority to teach, to rule and to sanctify, which has been handed down by the Apostles.

No individual has the right to associate himself with the Apostles...he must be 'sent" or "commissioned" with Divine Authority.

"How shall they preach" asks St.Paul, "unless they be sent"?

As early as the second century we find the Chruch Fathers, Syrian Hegisippus and Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, maintaining that the source and standard of the one Christian Faith, is the Apostolic Sacred Tradition handed down in an unbroken succession of Bishops. 

"But it would be too long to enumerate here the series of all the Churches; it suffices to point out the Apostolic Tradition, the teaching that has come down to us by episcopal succession, ...the greatest and most ancient of all, known, everywhere, and founded in Rome by the two glorious Apostles, Paul and Peter." Adv. Her. iii., 3; cf. Eusebuis, Hist. Eccles. iv., 8.    

KFC POSTS:

As far as I'm concerned, my post 806 is the end of the story. I understand that you don't accept it for you've made that very plain.

I'll be in Israel in April, I am sure.

Make it for the week of Independence Day?

Your line of thinking is totally a Catch-22.  You support your beliefs on tradition with the words of people like these Church Fathers, but at the same time you only believe their words are authoratative because your tradition declares them so.  God certainly didn't see fit to put their words in His Bible.

It sure made me sick of arguing with you.

"Not true," you're probably going to say.  "They got this, this, and this right, see in the Bible?  It's not all tradition like you say."  Yeah, you're right, but you should know that the most insidious lie is 95% true.

What day is that?  I can tell you the dates of Marv's trip.  It's April 15-25 but the cost is going to be somewhere in the vicinity of 10K for us both to go.  So that could be a problem.  Not because we don't have it but because my husband feels it's not a good use of God's money.  So we'll see.  Marv and his wife said they'd like to see me go. 

good point.  There is no Apostolic succession in the bible so she has to get it from somewhere.  That means she's taking the word of man over the word of God which totally contradicts Scripture.