the people's party posts:

In honesty, I have not responded to your comments about "replacement/supersession" theology becasue that would involve my bringing up the Church and KFC is intolerant and keeps deleting my comments.  

Which is Catholicism and you keep deleting anything I say about it. 5 deletes so far from my count.

nope.  I never saw the reply Lula. 

I only deleted you four times and I told you when I did so. 

Because I don't want this to be about proselytizing of  the RCC.  Keep it scriptural and you will be fine.  Back up your statements with scripture not with RCC tradition.   When you start giving us Catechism and RCC theology I don't want to hear that and I've asked you not to expand on it.    A small comment here and there would be fine, but you know Lula you can't do that. 

kfc posts:

Oh c'mon! I don't have an aversion to v. 24 or any passage in Scripture for that matter. As you, I    all of Scripture.

What you are doing is isolating one verse and forcing it to support the ideas of Dispensational/Messianic/Political Zionism.  That Old Testament Scriptural prophecy refers to the modern state of Isreal that was created by the godless UN in 1948-67 is just a fanciful idea.

And as long as you remain thinking it's physical land, you'll not understand the correct meaning of v. 24. That's because the verses that follow it cannot be dismissed.

25 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments and to keep my judgments and do them.

Regarding what happened to those Jews that gathered from every country in Jerusalem as per Acts 2....All those Jews were baptized into the New Isreal; they are INTO THEIR OWN LAND...only it's not physical land...it's the spritual kingdom of God..the New Isreal. They were baptized into the New and Eternal Covenant.

Verses 42-46 tells us as a result of their Baptism in Christ, they were adopted into His new and everlasting kingdom. The OT prophets prophecied that God of Heaven would set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed...one that would absorb all the other kingdoms and itself last forever. It happened and these Jews were baptized into it and persevered in the doctrine of the Apostles.  

41 They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: many wonders also and signs were done by the apostles in Jerusalem, and there was great fear in all. 44 And all they that believed, were together, and had all things common. 45 Their possessions and goods they sold, and divided them to all, according as every one had need.

46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart; 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord increased daily together such as should be saved.

Acts 2:  not about the physical land that they went back to ..It's a spiritual kingdom into which the Jews of Acts 2 were gathtered into ...and are presently being gathered into....  the remant will also gather into the kingdom in the endtimes. It won't be all the Jews in the modern state of Isreal....Jews won't be saved by circumcision, by their DNA or by the physical land in which they gather together.

When you told of the deletions...it was two. Following those, you deleted one in which I responded to Whisper2 and you on infant baptism and now, this one in which I addressed your list of the Chruch doctors and asked if you know what Chiliaism is.

And so that explains why you deleted my post describing Protestant oral tradition! ??

So you can flower your comments with slams, digs, accusations and calumnies against the CC, but refuse me the opportunity to defend against those. Mighty big-hearted of you, KFC. ....not.

lula posts:

kfc posts:

OK..here is what St.Paul said about oral Tradition, (did you get that? Tradition with a capital "T" as opposed to traditions of men with a small "t",  which Christ was opposed to.

First, we know that Jesus taught His teachings to the Apostles and they in turn, were sent out to teach all that Jesus had taught them to all nations until the end of the world St.Matt. 28:19. The Apostles went out and taught others Divine teachings by speaking to them ...that's where the oral comes in.

Second, since the Holy Bible wasn't composed at the time of Jesus and His sending out the Apostles and disciples to teach all nations, as per St.Matt. 28:19, we know the Bible, God's written Word, was not/could not be the only source of teaching faith.

Secondly, if a Divine teaching is passed on orally to others, then the listener has to "hear" the Divine teaching, right?

Now to prove my point of Apostolic oral tradition, I'll do as you said...go to the Gospels...

St.Paul expressly teaches that Christians must believe not only what he wrote, but also what he preached (since he was preaching Divine teachings...those are known as Apostolic oral Tradition).

 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word (oral), or by our epistle." (written). 2Thess. 2:14.

"Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast HEARD of me in faith, and in the love which is in Jesus Christ. keep the good thing committed to thy trust by the Holy Ghost." 2Tim. 1: 13-14.

And this next one shows that Christians were to learn Christ's Divine teachings not from their private interpretation of the Holy Bible, but from a permanent Apostolate, which is clear from the fact (see Acts) that the APostles appointed successors to themselves, and ordered them in turn to appoint others to carry on their work in the mission given by CHrist. StMatt. 28:19.  

"The things which thou hast HEARD of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also."  2Tim2:2.

These Divine teachings orally handed down by the Apostles (Apostolic oral Traditions) have been preserved in the CC by a continuous succession from St.Peter down.

Rolling my eyes....

Scripture itself explains The difference between Divine Tradition handed down by the oral teachings of the Apostles and the traditions of men which Jesus was rebuking.

lula posts:

From Scripture, it's easy to see that God revealed 2 sources of Christian teachings and faith....His oral Word and His written Word.

Why oh why did the Protestant forefather's reject God's oral Word....Sacred Apostolic Tradition?  The reason is they had to... in order to promote and hand down by Protestant oral tradition their own teachings, namely, the Bible alone, "Sola Scriptura" as the only rule of faith. Neither one is found or supported in God's written Word. KFc, Sola Scriptura and Sola Scriptura were invented and orally taught by the Protestant forefathers and handed down over the centuries to other Protestant teachers by Protestant oral tradition.

First, are you saying that Scriptures are not enough?

Do you know what Psalm 119 concerns itself with? It concerns itself with an individual heeding to the word of G-D. Scriptures says that G-D's word is a lamp to all the heed it. Psalm 119:105 'Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.'  Every 'young man' is exxpected to heed to G-D's word: Psalm 119:9 'How can a young man keep his way pure?  By keeping Your word.

Jesus said 'If you continue in MY WORD, then you are my disciples and shall know the truth' John 8:31-32.  He didn't say that we should get it from an organizaton but from HIS word.  G-D gave us Scripture and every word of it proceeds form the mouth of G-D (Deut 8:3)

"Sanctify them through your truth for your word is truth." John 17:17.

The CC talks about 'tradition' standing equal along side the word of G-D.  Your are correct that Scripture says much about 'tradition.  In the New Testament, the words 'traditions' and 'tradition' occur 14 times.  There are eight references (Matthew 15:2-3,6 Mark 7:3,5,8,9,13) in which Jesus makes statements about traditions, which are derogatory. In Colossians 2:8 and Galatians 1:14, Paul makes 5 references, which are derogatory.  Peter also has one reference (1 Peter 1:18) which is derogatory.  There are only three favorable references left concerning tradition.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees concerning their traditions: Mark 7:7-8 'They worship ME in vain, teaching as doctrines the cmmands of men (Isaiah 29:13).'  What the Pharisees did was elevate their tradition above Scripture.  Jesus reason for condemning the Pharisees was due to the fact that their traditions were leding people down a path of destruction.  You can see this discourse in Matthew 23:15,33. You can see in Matthew 15:3 Pharisees were questioning Jesus pertaining to the fact HIS disciples were trangressing their traditions but Jesus answered them with question (which is actually a very Jewish thing to do 'Why do you break G-D's commandment because of your tradition?'

Colossians 2:8 is very clear about this 'Be warned that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world and based on Jesus.'

Pharisees were perverting the word of G-D and rendering it ineffective through their tradition. You can see this in Matthew 15:1-9.  The 3 favorable Scriptures about tradition are 1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6.

In closing, whatever was taught orally was eventually written down. Paul indicates this by presenting to them what he taught orally in 1 Corinthians 11:23 'For I have received of the L-RD that which also I delivered to you,' this can be seen in 1 Thess 2:5 'You remember, that, when I was with you, I told you these things?'

In 2 Thess 3:6 Paul is WRITING and elaborating on what he had told them previously.  This was written down from what they were previously told.

Acts 17:11 'These people were more noble and open minded than those in Thessalonica, since they welcomed the message with eagerness and examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.'

I want to do the noble thing. Jesus also said that 'If a man loves me, HE will keep my words: and my Father will love him...'  G-D's word shall not pass away.  It doesn't talk about oral teaching or tradition not passing away BUT G-D's word shall not pass.

If Scripture isn't the final authority then how does it stop by just putting a few things next to it.  The Qu'ran is a revelation of god so is the book of Mormon.  We should put them up their and the list I'm sure could go on.

no I don't think so because I answered you remember?  I said hear me clear there is NO such thing as Oral Protestant Tradition and I commented on how you say that in one breath but in another accuse the Protestants as being very fractured; all over the place so how can we have Oral Tradition?  You're just spouting words when you say such a thing. 

You just quoted it above in #756.  So how could I delete it?  Or was there ANOTHER one?  You do have a tendency to repeat yourself quite a bit. 

I remember doing three at once, not two and then I did one more.  One had alot to do with the RCC's seven sacraments (not biblical but tradition)  and another bash at Luther.  That's all I can tell you.  That last one was long winded,pro RCC and anti Protestant.  So I deleted it.  But I'm telling you not more than 4.  So don't know what the 5th one was. 

Obviously you've written a ton here so that's a very small percentage.  Some others were borderline.  I detest deleting comments Lula but I have clearly outlined more than once to you not to do this so leaves me no choice. 

TO People's Party

AWESOME REPLY.  Thanks for taking the time to outline like that. 

tHE pEOPLE'SpARTY POSTS:

What I said is that Scripture is clearly not the only source of Christian faith.

and explained how I know that this way:

Almighty God revealed 2 deposits of faith, His written Word, Sacred Scripture and His oral Word, Apostolic Tradition.

Yes, exactly. And I couldn't agree more the teachings of the Psalm. God's Word is Divine truth and the fullness of Divine truth was given by God in His Oral and Written Word. 

In order to understand the importance of Divine oral tradition you should go back to Deut. 18:15-19 and give it a good read. Verse 19 certainly proves the written Word isn't all there is in teaching God's Divine truths.

 "The Lord God will raise to thee a PROPHET of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: Him thou shalt hear: 16 As thou desirest of the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the assembly was gathered together, and saidst: Let me not hear anymore the voice of the Lord My God,....17 And the Lord said to me: They have spoken all things well. 18 I will raise them up a prophet out of their midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all taht I have command him. 19 And he that will not hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be the revenger."

thepeople'sparty posts:

This passage of St.John 8 doesn't make your point. Since Jesus did not write one word, He couldn't have meant "if you continue in my (written) Word.

What Jesus was telling them is if you persevere in the true faith, and in the observance of my words, you shall be my disciples indeed. The object of this lesson was that it's not sufficient to believe, that they must also do what His words command them to do....He spoke to the Apostles and disciples and they in turn spoke to others what Christ spoke to them...the Divine truth was handed down by oral Tradition.

As to your second sentence, Christ did not leave us as orphans. Yes, Christ established a living organization upon St.Peter and the Apostles and gave a certain primacy to the teaching authority of His Chruch and its proclamation in His name. (It's all there in Scripture KFC.) For example, in St.Matt. 28:19 we see Our Lord commissioning the Apostles the express mission to baptize and teach in His name making disciples of all nations until the end of the world...Now that's quite a mission! We read in Scripture that Christ appointed His Apostles and it stands to reason that since His apostles wouldn't live until the end of the world, they had to appoint their successors to continue Christ's mission.  Read the Book of Acts.

We read in St.Mark 16:15, that the Apostles are commanded to go and preach to all the world. And in St.Luke 10:16, we see that whoever hears the 72, hears our Lord.

These facts are most telling...as no where do we see our Lord commissioning His apostles to teach His Divine Truth and evangelize the world by writing in His name. The emphasis is always on His oral Word, on preaching the Gospel, not on printing and distributing it.

Besides that, the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura grossly avoids the fact that the Chruch came way, way before the Bible and not the other way around. It was the Chruch in effect who wrote the Bible...it was the Chruch's Apostolic oral Tradition from which the canons of the Holy Bible were decided.   

Divine Truth was by preaching the Word. Furthermore, the Bible calls the Chruch and not the Holy Bible, "the pillar and Ground of Truth." 1Tim. 3:15.

The People's party posts:

So we are discovering that the Holy Bible itself indicates that in addition to the written Word, We are to accept Oral Tradition and note that I write Tradition with a captial "T" because there is a difference.

St.Paul both commends and commands the keeping of oral tradition. And once one properly and correctly understands what Apostolic oral tradition is, then one can understand why the CC holds Sacred (Divine oral Word) Tradition standing equal along Sacred (Divine written Word) Scripture. In 1Cor. 11:1-2, we read, "Be ye followers of me, as I am also of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my teachings as I have delivered them to you. (Here St.Paul has obviously commending the keeping of oral Tradition here ....orally handing down Christ's teachings is Aposotlic oral Tradition.)

furthermore, here St.Paul extols the believers for having done so, ("I praise you..."). Explicit in this passage is also the fact that the integrity of this Apostolic oral Tradition has been clearly maintained, just as Our Lord promised it would be, through safeguarding of the Holy Spirit. St.John 16:13.

The Bible itself can't get any clearer for supporting Sacred Oral Tradition in 2Thess. 2:14-15 where Christians are actually commanded to "stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned"...THe Greek word is krateite, translated means "hold" "to be strong", mighty and prevail". This language is emphatic and demonstrates the importance of holding these Apostolic oral Traditions.

These passages are significant becasue they show the existence of living traditions within the Apostolic teaching as well as tells us unequivically that Christians are firmly grounded in the one Faith of Christ by adhering to Apostolic oral Traditions, and it clearly states that these Traditions that are to be kept are both oral and written.  

So, as far as I'm concerned Catholics, in holding to Sacred Tradition, are following Scripture to a "T". Which brings me to ask that since the Holy Bible distinctly state that oral Traditions --authentic and Apostolic in origin, are to be "held" as a (one o f two) valid component of keeping the one true Faith of Christ, by what reasoning or excuse do Protestants dismiss them?

Perhaps someone can tell us by what authority do they reject a clear-cut injunction of St.Paul?

No so...Read the last passage of the last Gospel.... St.John 21:25 sums it up quite nicely...

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain books that should be written."   

lula posts: [quote]You say that the modern physical state of Isreal is the fulfillment of Ezekiel 36:24-28 while I say Ezekiel has already been fulfilled...that was done immediately following the First Christian Pentecost and gave Scripture as proof-text.

You say salvation is about the modern state of Isreal encompassing all Jews and I say salvation is about a remnant of Jews. Then (as per Acts 2, today and in the future, a "remnant" of Jews shall receive Christ and be saved.

KFC POSTS:

ok, *sigh* let me go in another direction with this. You're trying to make pieces fit that don't fit. It's because you don't understand the Jew. To understand the Jew is to understand what's going on. To understand the Jew is to understand History.[/quote]

Re: the highlighted....since you are unfairly intolerant of my views, I have decided to respond to this by writing my own forum.

I haven't decided yet whether or not I'll delete some of your comments should you choose to give any.

no, This is taking much liberty Lula.  In fact it's an outright wrangling of the scriptures.  Very important...what is the subject matter?  Notice it's concerning public worship of women right?  Notice the very next word that links your V 1-2?  It's the word.."but."  This has NOTHING to do with what you're saying and all to do with a written letter the Corinthians wrote to him (see 7:1). 

The basic problem in this church did not concern doctrine but morals, not theology but life-style.  They believed the cardinal truths about God's nature and owrk but they did not live godly lives.  And so Paul praises them for their strengths before he begins to highlight their weaknesses-in this case their misunderstanding of male-female roles. 

There's nothing wrong with traditions as long as they don't contradict scripture.   Traditions (paradosis) is used in a negative way in the NT when it refers to man made ideas or practices that try and supercede the word of God. 

there is NO such thing in scripture as Sacred Oral Tradition.  These traditions here are all the teachings Paul had shared with the Thessalonians and they would NOT contradict the written word. 

One, for example can be found in the verse directly above these two you just quoted.  Check out v13...."...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth." 

You say predestination or election is untrue because of your tradition but here once again we see God does indeed elect. 

now that's just nasty... but that's a good idea if you want to expand on your RCC theology.  What does that have to do with knowing the history of the Jews?   I am not intolerant of your views.  I just set a mandate to you quite a while back and you refuse to abide by it.  I let alot go Lula but you have a tendency to push and you've done alot of pushing here.  I only took, like I said liberty to delete you on 4 occasions because it was just too much RCC dogma.  One was quite lengthy and there was NO new material in there.  Just more of the same RCC stuff you keep saying over and over. 

you keep bringing this up. This HAS NOTHING to do with your oral tradition.  This is just saying what we have written is all we need.  Notice it says "other things Jesus did."   It doesn't say "other things Jesus said."   This has nothing to do with the Oral Traditions that the RCC puts forward. 

BINGO!

ooh, I'm gleeful knowing we are getting closer on our understanding the difference between Sacred Tradition and traditions of men that Christ rebuked.  Keep in mind the difference is the same thing as the Holy Bible (a book) is God's Word in human language and any other book is man's word in human language.

Scripture itself reveals that it is not the only or sole source of Truth.  The two sources of faith and authentic Christian doctrine are found in the authentic unwritten Word and in the written Word. Catholics intend, as a source of Christian truth, that Sacred or Divine Tradition, which is the collection of doctrines taught by Christ and the Apostles, but which were not explicitly written in the NT.

lula posts:

kfc posts:

St.Paul said to Timothy, "The things you have heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who will be fit to teach others also." 2 Tim.2:2. This is Apostolic oral Tradition, the handing down of the teachings of the Christian Faith, morals, doctrines, etc. The early ecclesiastical writers recorded the teachings of these "faithful men" and those teachings are an authentic source of the revelation of Christ to be transmitted to posterity to the end of time. These Traditions have been especially safeguarded by the Holy Spirit just as Christ said they would be.

"Traditions of men" what sometimes Christ called "their law" or "your law" have nothing to do with this Divine Traditon.