Exodus 10:20 (NIV): But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 10:20 (KJV): But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Exodus 10:20 (New American Standard Bible): But the LORD hardened Pharoah's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go.

You may as well read through Exodus 4:21-11:10 again. So which is it?

We've been over this already many times here on JU.  Pharoah hardened his heart first about 10 times and then God hardened Pharoah's heart.  If I had my bible with me right now, I'd give you the exact scriptures, but I'm on vacation right now. 

Again, you have to know scripture to know this.  What you just read and quoted here is where God is telling Moses what will  happen ahead of time....the end result.  Keep reading and you'll see exactly what happened in context starting when Moses first went to Pharoah on the very first day. 

This is exactly right.  Some just want to use the bible to point out the supposed error when in fact the error is not with the scripture but the one trying to tear it down. 

If they would just honestly read it, they would see it for what it really is, the infallible word of God. 

I have honestly read it, and it just comes off as the story of a deity drunk with power. So why does God harden pharaohs heart? For the purpose of visiting more atrocities on people?

I'll take your "You just aren't reading it right" as a concession that you really have no counter-argument, because if you cannot give a legitimate, moral reason for these things, it obviously doesn't synch with your world view, so you just toss out the "well you aren't reading it right". I ask again - how is it just for the first born of Egypt to be killed, indiscriminately? Are the sins of the father really supposed to be visited upon their children? Should you be imprisoned or executed for something someone else did? Why does god favour a specific portion of the populace he created? Why could he not make revelations to all?

What does God have against the handicapped?

Leviticus 21:16-23: And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of they seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the hoy. Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them.

And why does he suddenly seem to become much more relaxed about this when Jesus comes by? Could it be that gods character develops? But a change in character would imply imperfect character. Whats even more amusing is that your god would willingly decieve people. But how, you ask?

2 Thessalonians 2:11-13: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

In other words, God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn us to hell, and apparently selects who he wants saved "from the beginning". It apparently makes no difference how good, kind, honest or loving we are; if God didn't chose us, we're damned anyway. These are not distortions, these are not clever rewordings. This is just what your book says.

Finally I ask again what the point of your Obama comment earlier was, and why you apparently feel we all think he'll fix everything wrong with your nation. Actually I may as well try an experiment here: I enjoy universal health care (I'm Canadian) and think that at this point in history it's a necessity for a nation to have to be considered civilized.

Not necessarily KFC, and you should know that.

NEPHILIM_x POSTS:

LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

nephilim_x posts:

Here is the answer to your question about Pharoah...

God gave Moses the Old Covenant law and told him exactly how the ancient Isrealites were to worship Him in atonement for their sins...it was by offering a sacrifice...it's all there in Lev. 4. and part of Lev.21 which you quoted above.  Moses and Aaron, the High Priest, went to Pharaoh and demanded that he let the people go into the desert to offer sacrifice and Pharaoh saying he didn't know Moses God and wouldn't be commanded by Him to do anything hardened his heart (meaning he was really stubborn) and said no he wouldn't let them go and what's worse, he ordered the Isrealites to work even harder.

Moses and Aaron asked again but Pharaoh's heart remained hardened and so God sent the plagues upon Egypt. Why?

Well, 1st----to teach Pharaoh and his people that the God of the Isrealites was also Lord over Egypt, and the one true and ALmighty God. 2---to convert the haughty king so that he would want to obey God's commandments. 3---to punish Pharaoh and his people for their unreasonable idolatry and their cruel oppression of the Isrealites after all they hadn't done anything to the Egyptians. The Egyptians worshipped the Nile as a god and now destruction was brought down upon them by means of it. Disease killed the cattle which also were objects of their worship....so they were punished by the very things through which they sinned.

4---the plagues were sent to teach the pagans that the gods whom they worshipped were in vain and powerless however earnestly they appealed to them, they coould obtain no help. 5---they were to confirm the Isrealites in their belief in the one true God and in confidence in Him who protected them.

By these plagues we see the Almighty God not only manifest His justice but also His merciful patience. He sent the 1st plague only after the miracles worked before Pharaoh had no effect. Like we said, Pharaoh stubbornly hardened his heart to them. If you did read it carefully, then you will notice that the plagues gradually succeeded each other beginning with the least and when these availed nothing, they became more and more dreadful. Moreover, they didn't follow each other day by day, but between the several plagues there was an interval of days, sometimes of weeks.

Now what are we to take from Pharaoh because with most everything in the Holy BIlble there is something to be learned for us as the Holy Bible is for all times and all people? Pharaoh is a warning example of impenitence and obduracy. God didn't warn him only outwardly, by Moses' words and the plagues....He also warned him inwardly by His grace. But Pharaoh wouldn't listen to the quiet admonitions of God nor obey the inspirations of divine grace (sometimes called the voice of conscience)  and so by rendering himself unworthy of further graces, he at last became quite hardened. once or twice he made good resolutions about letting God's people go, but as soon as the pressure of necessity was removed, he didn't keep them.

God foretold to him the last and worst plague some 14 days before it was sent, and would in His mercy have spared Pharaoh and his people this last terrible visitation. Pharaoh however, despised the warning as an empty threat, and remained hardened. He is the type of defiant sinner who won't listen to any exhortations doesn't carry out good solutions, perseveres in sin, and finally becomes hardened. 

Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

This is just one of many passages saying God was the one who hardened the heart of Pharaoh. There are three passages that say Pharaoh was the one, and one of them isn't even in Exodus; it's retrospective in Samuel. There are eleven passages, all in Exodus, that say your god did it, most of them in past tense. Sorry, but there's no way out of this.

Why does your god even care what other people worship? Doesn't it completely negate the entire point of free will if anything other than a single series of choices damns you, even if that series of choices is unavailable to you to begin with? And why does God go from casting out lepers (Numbers 5:1-4: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell. And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: As the Lord spoke unto Moses, so did the children of Israel.) to washing them once Jesus shows up?

Or will you continue to cling to the passages that say Pharaoh hardened his heart, believing it justifies everything? What about the numerous contradictions over a variety of issues, from as mundane as the number of sons Abraham had, to as crucial as how long gods anger lasts? You'll doubtlessly say there are no contradictions, or that I'm just not interpreting right, and if only it was read right I would see the truth. I say do as your bible says, and remove the plank in your eye before fussing over the speck in mine.

Wisdom 19 explains why God showed no mercy upon the Egyptians and how we as creatures created by God are to obey His commands, but like Pharaoh we have a real problem with God Authority...have you noticed that?

Worshipping God is an inalienable right and duty. Why not just let the Isrealites freely go and worship God?  Isn't that something we are dealing with right now in our lifetime? How about freely worshipping God in Communist countries of China and Cuba, N. Vietnam and Korea? How free are the Christians in the mideast to worship? Will I as a Catholic living in the USA always be able to freely worship God? Of late, I seriously wonder.

Wisdom 19 we learn that Pharaoh finally agreed to let the Isrealites go...and then, even while they were mourning the deaths of their children, he changed his mind and pursued them as fugitives...

As far as God causing the death of the first born of the Egyptians...remember we are created by God and we are His to take back to Himself when He so desires...we have no choice in the matter of when we will be called back to our Creator and these children were taken to a far better place.

To understand more read Ecclesissticus 41. Of death, of an evil and of a good name, and of children of sinners.

Your terminology is based upon a false notion of God.

God created us for Himself and God is our beginning and our end. God as a loving Father wants only the good and happiness for us and so He gave us certain guidelines in which to live our life...we have free will to choose to live our life according to these guidelines or not.

God also gave us very specific religion (acts of justice) by which we are to render only to Him honor, gratitude, and obedience. God has definite rights over us in which no one is justified in ignoring. By His First Commandment, He commanded us to adore and serve Him while on this earth to be with Him eternally in the next.   

God is All loving, All Just and All powerful. Becasue He is Love, He asks the freely given love of man and not a compelled love. Becasue He is just, He will not deprive man of the free will which is in accordance with his rational nature. Nor is this against the omnipotence of GOd for even His power does not extend to contradictory things. Man cannot be free to love and serve God  wihtout being free to reject Him and rebel against Him and His commands (laws). We can't have it both ways. Even, God if He wants men to be free cannot take from them the power to choose and do evil. If He enforces goodness, He takes away freedom. If He leaves freedom, He must permit evil, even though He forbids it. It's man's dignity that he is the master of his own destiny instead of having to develop like a tree which necessarily obeys natural law.

Mankind starting with Adam and Eve, misused their freedom and sin, brutality and death resulted. But it was impossible to give men the free gift of freedom and the dignity of being master of his own destiny without risking the permission of such failures.    

There are reasons for things...After the Fall of Adam and Eve, disease entered the world....remember here Moses time was about 1500-1450 BC...leprosy was a deadly contagious disease and God was guiding the people as to how to handle such things or else the entire population could have been wiped out....it was God teaching about "quarantine"...we've learned from it and done/do similiar things today..

In Medieval times in the 1300s, the bubonic plague, called Black Death began in China and was carried to Europe where 25 million people died. Today, infectious diseases such as diptheria, typhoid, malaria, influenze have spread around...we are currently experiencing the Swine Flu. Don't you think that when schools are shut down for a week is a type of quarantine?  

If god truly loved his creations he would not put them into a situation where their freedom is tied down because if they behave any way other than what he specifically wants they suffer forever. That's as much free will as being whipped if you do something your owner doesn't like. But then slavery is fine in the bible, so what else could be expected from your god?

Swine flu really is not a concern for first world nations due to a fantastic thing called "medical science". Of 5000 confirmed US cases, there has been 5 deaths. All of these had underlying health issues that would increase their vulnerability to many diseases, including regular flu. Remember SARS? The oh-so-dreaded super outbreak that had millions clinging to face masks and afraid to use public transport? 775 direct deaths, 60 due to other causes (going by the WHOs own numbers), in the entire world. Stop letting yourself get wrapped up in ridiculous news cycles; as long as you're in a first world nation you have access to medical care and resources that do utterly amazing things. As for bubonic plague, you know that in modern times we can handle it without problem as long as diagnosis and treatment are prompt, right? Despite our supposed sinfulness?

So anyway explain why Jesus broke quarantine if it was so vital before. Leprosy wasn't exactly a small thing in his lifetime either. And if you're seriously comparing "hey don't send your kids to school for a week" to "get them out of here and never let them come back to our society", welp. Can't say much else.

And of course as a catholic you'll be free to worship. Christianity as a whole comprises 78.4% of the USAs religious makeup, compared to 16.1% for no religion, going by Wiki. Oh my. Those oh so spooky atheists. Watch out, with our numbers we'll be flooding the gates in several hundred years. In 2006 the University of Minnesota held a nationwide poll and found that atheists were distrusted more other minority groups, including Muslims and recent immigrants, two other groups routinely shit on by the USA. We're also associated with "criminal behavior, rampant materialism and cultural elitism".

Kind of odd given that you were the one going on about shunning those who don't believe in god, and insisting your book was inherently better than others.

Oh yeah Biden is a catholic so uh keep freaking out if you want.

And for the last time, God clearly is willing to interfere with man given his repeated interventions in the old testament.

One final thing. Why would god create us specifically to worship him? A perfect god, anyway. If he creates specifically to be worshipped, it points towards a massive ego issue. Your own god says repeatedly that he is a jealous god as well. Is jealousy not a character flaw? What about the passages I brought up earlier, saying that god had already preselected who would go to heaven and who wouldn't? Why must nonbelievers, or people who simply believe the wrong religion, inherently suffer? If god created us surely he would realize that we are flawed and you cannot realistically expect someone to discard intellectual or cultural biases simply because one book among many says you must or you'll be punished.

Why is the nonbeliever who does many good things, but believes not in god, damned to torment, while the believer who does no more than obey your commandments saved? Is god genuinely so petty that if someone who would have been a saint if they were religious is an atheist, he burns them forever?

As I said before, a deity with such anger, rage and jealousy is no deity I would ever worship. Go back, reread your old testament, and explain to me why I should choose to worship a mass murderer, which is what your god is when you take the bible as literal. And if you don't take it literally, how do you pick and choose what isn't literal? Isn't that simply recognizing certain parts as atrocious and cherry picking them out as metaphor?

Again, after reading your last comments especially this one, I can only arrive at the conclusion that your questioning terminology is based upon a false notion of God. And your telling me to explain this and explain that isn't going to help one iota..for I already tried with explaining the plagues upon Pharaoh.

Then as you're unwilling to answer any questions, and also repeatedly play the "you just aren't interpreting it right" card over and over again, I'll simply have to assume that you have no valid arguments to make. All that can be concluded is that your religion, by your own admissions, preaches elitism, division and mercilessness, all justified because an intentionally flawed creation had the nerve to be flawed.

Good day, Lulapilgrim. May you live your life surrounded by people just like you.

Just asking.....are you reading this to be really open minded or are you reading this with the sole purpose to prove yourself right? 

I'm sorry but I've been away for over a week and couldn't respond. 

You're only looking at one side of this. 

Ten times it is said that Pharoah hardened HIS OWN HEART( 7:13,14,22, 8:15,19,32, 9:7, 34,35, 13:15) and then 10 times that God hardened Phaoah's heart.  (4:21, 7:3, 9:12, 10:1,20, 27, 11:10, 14:4, 8, 17)

Seven times Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God FIRST hardened it, though the prediction that God would do it preceded it all......as I already told you. 

Every single plague represented every single Egyptian God.  For example the river turning to blood was a reference to the pagan god Hapi which was the god of the Nile.  The frogs?  That was a direct reference to Heqt which was a god fashioned in the shape of a frog and another spirit of the Nile. 

all the way down to the death of the firstborn which was not only children but cattle and adults as well.  So it has nothing to do with sin being passed down to the children.  But this represented the god Osiris which was supposedly the giver of life and Pharoah was also considered this deity.

All these plagues were to show both the Hebrews and the Egyptians the power of the only real genuine God and to mock the pagan gods who were helpless and had no power at all. 

There was a plan and a purpose for all this starting with the whole reason the Hebrews were in Egypt in the first place.  You'd have to at least start with Joseph in the book of Genesis and read from there on to get a grasp of the awesome plan of God.  This is start of the Hebrew nation and how they were preserved by the Egyptians and then enslaved by them but also how they flourished and multiplied over a period of 430 years before Moses took them out under the hand of God. 

As far as the hardened hearts go.  The scriptures are clear that there is a time when after you hardened your heart so much to God that there is no point of return.  God just leaves you to your hardened hearts.  So when it says that God hardened his heart it really is to be understood that God will not soften his heart.  Because only God can transform the heart.  He says in Jeremiah and elsewhere that it is God who performs heart surgery by taking out the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh. 

 Pharoah hardened his heart so much after seeing these miracles that God in effect said....."so be it.  You hardened your heart to me these so many times after I revealed myself to you, I will not soften your heart to me now." 

I see this still so much today.  God is everywhere and his message is being brought forth by his ambassadors but people are still hardening their hearts to him.  There is nothing new under the sun.

He loves us and that's why he gave us freewill.  We are free to choose.  And we will choose to sin every time. We are not sinners because we sin.  We sin because we are born sinners.  Obviously there is no tying down.  Look at our society.  Does it look like there is any tying down?  God has let freewill go rampant and look where we've taken it.  

No matter what our choices are in this life or the next we will suffer consequences.  That's par for the course.  Do you think you can live a wicked sinful life in the eyes of God and not suffer his justice for doing so?  Everything in nature tells us that we always reap what we have sown.  It's no different with our lives now.  How we live our life determines our outcome. 

You can either choose to follow God or not.  God allows this because of his great love for mankind.  But he's also a God of Justice as he is a God of love.  Both of these attributes of his will be met. 

Because God knows that this worship is leading them down the wrong road.  God is the God of love (agape).  There is no higher form of love we can receive but from him.  We as a people don't realize really how wicked we really are nor do we realize how loving God really is.  He loves us more than we can even dare to hope. 

These other gods are dangerous to us.  They lead us away from him.  A pagan idol is anything that takes our focus off from the one true God.  God leads us in the truth and into the light.  These other false gods and idols leave us into darkness and error.  Today these idols are things such as money, drugs, fame, alcohol, entertainment.  It can even be good things like our jobs, our families, luxeries etc.  Anything that takes us away from God is considered an idol.  We were created to worship.  If we don't worship God we will worship something else. 

He does give us free will.  We have the choice to die or to live.  He says, choose life.  Most rather choose to be their own god.  The problem is we can't save ourselves even though we are duped into thinking we can.  Many will find out too late. 

Ok on the lepers.  You give Numbers 5.  I just finished reading this book.  Chapters 5 & 6 show the need for the new organized nation to be pure.  Isolation and observation were required in all suspected cases because, like sin, this disease could spread.  God knew this.  The word comes from a root that means "to strike" and strongly suggests that it may have served as an illustration of sin (Isa 1:6, Ps 51:7)  We do know that Miriam (Moses sister) was struck with leprosy after she sinned against God by spreading rumors about Moses. 

At one point in scripture we read a story about a man named Naaman who was told to dip in the river seven times to be made pure from his leprosy representing our need to go outside of ourselves to God for a cure. 

there are absolutely NO contradictions in the bible. I can say this with complete certainty and accuracy.  I've read this bible for over 40 years  and haven't found one yet.  Oh, yes there were some times especially in the beginning when I thought there might be and then I'd find the answer to it.  The problem wasn't with the bible but with me. 

So if you'd like to test me on this, go ahead.  Because I've heard every single supposed contradiction out there.  I think I can answer to your satisfaction any contradiction you might bring to the table. 

But be warned that you will find yourself challenged in the area of honesty when it comes to this sort of dialogue. 

BTW...your last comment was nothing but a typical bible hating answer and one I could have gotten rich on if I had a nickel for every time I've heard it.  It's usually what I call the atheist's statement of faith. 

The God you described is foreign to the God I worship.  God is a God of love, mercy, patience, and faithfulness among other things.  Maybe you see him this way because you are not with him?  If you go back and read Revelation 5:5 you'd see that John was told to look on the throne and see the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.  When John turned and looked he saw a lamb as if it had been slain, 5:6. 

See, when Jesus came the first time he came as a lamb, meek and gentle.  But when he comes back the second time he comes back as a Lion fierce and hungry for justice.  John saw a lamb but those who do not follow this lamb will see Jesus as a lion. 

The bible is both literal and symbolic.  You take it as literal as much as you can unless it's obviously symbolic.  Like if I said it's raining cats and dogs....that's obvious.  Same with the bible.  If it makes sense to take literal, then we are to take it literal.  If it's meant to be poetic or symbolic then the clue for the symbol must be in there somewhere.  We search until we find it.