KFC POSTS: # 69

KFC POSTS: #87

KFC POSTS #86


KFC POSTS #95 [quote]queen of heaven is not in caps in my bible either Lula. I just capped it earlier in my response to you as habit of capping a title thing. My mistake. What does that really matter anyhow?[/quote]

KFC,
First of all I accept your explanation. While I don't want to belabor this, I want to answer your question.

My reply #92 indicates why I think it matters....you are trying real hard to connect paganism with Catholicism. Here you were making the subtle connection---Catholics Mary, Queen of Heaven to the pagans false worship of the Babylonian goddess, Ishtar, whom they called "queen of heaven"....thus the insinuation that Catholics are idolators by worshipping Mary Queen of Heaven.

This seems to be a fairly accurate assessment given your comments I've cited and your #87 post.

I think now I've refuted this with my posts to Tova7.

Yes d-e-a-d. By definition....

1. no longer living; deprived of life: dead people; dead flowers; dead animals.
2. brain-dead.
3. not endowed with life; inanimate: dead stones.
4. resembling death; deathlike: a dead sleep; a dead faint.
5. bereft of sensation; numb: He was half dead with fright. My leg feels dead.
6. lacking sensitivity of feeling; insensitive: dead to the needs of others.
7. incapable of being emotionally moved; unresponsive: dead to the nuances of the music.
8. (of an emotion) no longer felt; ended; extinguished: a dead passion; dead affections.
9. no longer current or prevalent, as in effect, significance, or practice; obsolete: a dead law; a dead controversy.
10. no longer functioning, operating, or productive: a dead motor; a dead battery.
11. not moving or circulating; stagnant; stale: dead water; dead air.
12. utterly tired; exhausted: They felt dead from the six-hour trip.
13. (of a language) no longer in use as a sole means of oral communication among a people: Latin is a dead language.
14. without vitality, spirit, enthusiasm, or the like: a dead party.
15. lacking the customary activity; dull; inactive: a dead business day.
16. complete; absolute: dead silence; The plan was a dead loss.
17. sudden or abrupt, as the complete stoppage of an action: The bus came to a dead stop.
18. put out; extinguished: a dead cigarette.
19. without resilience or bounce: a dead tennis ball.
20. infertile; barren: dead land.
21. exact; precise: the dead center of a circle.
22. accurate; sure; unerring: a dead shot.
23. direct; straight: a dead line.
24. tasteless or flat, as a beverage: a dead soft drink.
25. flat rather than glossy, bright, or brilliant: The house was painted dead white.
26. without resonance; anechoic: dead sound; a dead wall surface of a recording studio.
27. not fruitful; unproductive: dead capital.
28. Law. deprived of civil rights so that one is in the state of civil death, esp. deprived of the rights of property.
29. Sports. out of play: a dead ball.
30. (of a golf ball) lying so close to the hole as to make holing on the next stroke a virtual certainty.
31. (of type or copy) having been used or rejected.
32. Electricity. a. free from any electric connection to a source of potential difference and from electric charge.
b. not having a potential different from that of the earth.

33. Metallurgy. (of steel) a. fully killed.
b. unresponsive to heat treatment.

34. (of the mouth of a horse) no longer sensitive to the pressure of a bit.
35. noting any rope in a tackle that does not pass over a pulley or is not rove through a block.
–noun 36. the period of greatest darkness, coldness, etc.: the dead of night; the dead of winter.
37. the dead, dead persons collectively: Prayers were recited for the dead.
–adverb 38. absolutely; completely: dead right; dead tired.
39. with sudden and total stoppage of motion, action, or the like: He stopped dead.
40. directly; exactly; straight: The island lay dead ahead.
—Idioms41. dead in the water, completely inactive or inoperable; no longer in action or under consideration: Our plans to expand the business have been dead in the water for the past two months.
42. dead to rights, in the very act of committing a crime, offense, or mistake; red-handed.

They are DEAD to us the corporeal world unless of course you think you're a MEDIUM? Mediums invoke the spirits and what does God say about them, hmmmm?

What do you think the difference is between someone who talks to a dead saint and someone who talks to their dead cousin? Nadda.

They are DEAD-Lula. We are not to commune with the DEAD. (Mediums, witch craft, necromancy are all addressed in the Bible and you know it.) They did not die and rise again...they have yet to rise in their corporeal bodies. Jesus did rise again, he actually does have "ears to hear."

Are their souls with Christ? Sure, but they are not reachable by the LIVING...and even if they were we are commanded not to commune with the DEAD. I don't know what your definition of dead is..

Actually not talking about idolatry at all, but with invoking the dead with prayer.

A big no no scripturally.

Well at least you got the ASS-U-MPTION part right. heh

Prove this Lula. Prove it WITH SCRIPTURE. Enoch and Elijah were "taken" by God and were no more...the Bible is very specific about the details of people God takes to heaven their bodies. So it will be about taking Mary without corruption...oh wait, its NOT THERE.

I guess though if you want to commune with the dead, the best way to do it and not be called pagan, is to give them ears and make sure they are still living...but if they're living why not call them on the phone? That's right THEY'RE DEAD...no longer corporeal, no longer able to be reached by the living..dead to this world.

No you haven't. Just so we're clear....quoting Catholic dogma until you're blue in the face doesn't lend any credibility to your case because it is lies to me. Lies. Big fat ones, with harry warts on their dead invoking noses.  

I am sure God just loooooves when people think they need "Additions to" anything having to do with him.

On a simple level lets look at this invoking the dead to get a living God to hear us, help us, whatever.

How back biting is it to talk with other people to try and convince another to do something you want?

For example, If I want you to help me with my garden. Wouldn't it be a total lack of respect and character on my part to go to your neighbor, your mama, your sister, and ask them to "intercede" on my behalf? Wouldn't you be a bit offended that I didn't come straight to you and only you and allow you in your wisdom to make your own decision?

How much more God must be offended to know there are people who do not trust Him to hear them, or to act in their best interest on HIS very own.

He went through all the trouble of coming here, being tortured, and dying a horrible death so we could have direct access to Him, no middle man...and yet some still cling to the middle man as if asking His mama will endear us to him..

Do you even see how ridiculous that is? Good grief, God tells us to take our problems DIRECTLY to the source when we have it with another believer..and we are just human. But you believe invoking the dead (something we know he HATES) is gonna endear Him to your prayer....

Come on...makes no sense.

Which is why I am NOT Catholic.

I am here on earth where God has placed me, in this time. Why do I need to invoke the dead when I have direct dial straight to the creator?

He died for that phone line and I for one am not going to dishonor the sacrifice by adding a bunch of dead humans into the mix.

How did David worship Lula? He offered songs and he danced before the Lord.

How did David pray Lula? In fact how did CHRIST pray?

Your assertions are way off base.

You know why Protestants protested? Because once people started reading the Bible for themselves. They saw all the extra stuff the Catholic Church was trying to pawn off as "inspired." It was a heavy yoke that Christ never meant for his people to carry.

Look at the OT, how the rabbis took the commandments of God and just kept adding to them...so that even plucking grain from its stem on the sabbath was considered a sin.

That is what the Catholic Church does...they ADD to what God did, what He wants, twisting it to suit their needs at the time. It's argued they did it for power in the early church, but I don't really care WHY...in the here and now its a yoke most people won't carry because they can see it for what it is, which is not the truth.

Tova posts:

My definition of dead is the same as yours. But try to think beyond the dead physical body in the grave for that's only where the dust remains until our soul is reunited with the body  at the General Resurrection at the end of the world, followed by the Final Judgment.   

Let's talk about life...and what we know from Genesis 1:26. "Let us make man in our image and likeness"....Tova7, this image of God in man is not in the body, but in the soul, which is a spiritual substance.

Now go on to 2:7 and God's creation of man..."And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth; and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul."

We die, that is, lose our life,  when God removes his breath from our living soul. Our physical body corrupts, but our eternal and immortal soul lives on...

Death is the dissolution of the union between the soul and the body which must happen to every human being at the end of his life.  "And...it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment," says St.Paul in Hebrews 9:27. As soon as the soul is separated from the body, its fate is decided by God...the Particular Judgment.

Some go to Heaven, some to Hell....

Those souls which are in Heaven are Saints....very much alive, not dead at all, and so when we pray to the Saints, we are praying to someone who is gloriously alive..We are not communing with the dead when we pray to Saints in Heaven.

 

 

 

 

 

LULA POSTS:

TOVA POSTS:

Then go back and read post # 119 about two thirds of the way down.

You will see that these biblical passages refute the Protestant contention that those who have died and gone to Heaven lack all consciousness and are unaware of us and our troubles until the Resurrection.

Refute 1St.Peter4:6, St. Luke 16:19-31; St.Matt.17:2-3; Hebrews 11:4; 12:1; Job 5:1 if you disagree that they all constitute proof of the living presence of the Saints and their active interest, through the will of GOd in our affairs.

Perhaps you can get KFC to help refute 2Machabees 15:11-16.

These examples in the Bible which some Protestants claim to believe in its totality solidly and squarely root the Catholic belief in the Communion of the Saints and their intercession on our behalf.

Please consider that the Protestant scorn for praying to Saints and placing no value on sanctity may be nothing more than the inevitable result of following the Reformers dogma handed down by Protestant oral tradition--that saints are no different than earthly "believers". The Protestant claim is that "We are all saints". You've been deprived by the Reformers that sanctity as an ideal and Saints are models to imitate. Protestants have no idea what sanctity is. They can't fully appreciate the heroism required to achieve holiness, and the accompanying reality, that this is the only heroism in the end that is worth emulating.

Besides, salvation according to the Reformers was easier.

 

 

 

  

 

Lula posts:

TOVA7 posts:

This is mean-spirited Tova7.

 

TOVA7 posts:

Our Blessed Mother was blessed among woman becasue she was specially chosen by God, but Scripture tells us she was more, much more than an ordinary woman.

God sent Angel Gabriel to announce to the virgin Mary that she was chosen to bewcome the mother of God the Son. St.Luke 1:28 has it that the Angel upon greeting her said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.."

Do you think ordinary woman are full of grace? What does full mean to you? and then what does "full of grace" mean? Understand that and you'll never say that the Blessed VIrgin Mary is an ordinary woman again.  in God's creation, she is His masterpiece.

To Catholics, our Blessed Mother is certainly above other woman, so much so that she is considered worthy of special devotion, not of worship, latria, but of honor, hyperdulia. Her status accounts for the attention paid to her. Protestants tend to diminish her status to show she's ordinary..just like other woman.

 

  

Lula posts:

TOVA7 posts:

Enoch and Elias (Elijah) did not die before being taken into Heaven.

The Catholic position is that after our  Blessed Mother completed her earthly life, she died....and was assumed by God body and soul into the glory of Heaven. In short, her body was not allowed to corrupt; it was not allowed to remain in the tomb.

True there are no express Scriptural proofs for this doctrine. However, the  possiblility of bodily assumption before the General Resurrection is not excluded by 1Cor.15:23 and it is even suggested by St.Matt.27:52-53...."and the graves were opened and many bodies arose out of them, bodies of holy men gone to their rest; who after His rising again, left their graves and went into the holy city, where they were seen by many."

As an aside, note I highlighted "were seen". Does that tell you anything about "life" in Heaven?

  Back to proof of the Blessed Virgin's Assumption body and soul into Heaven.....

We know that after the Crucxifixation the Blessed Virgin Mary was cared for by St.John. And early Christian writings for the Chruch Doctors and Fathers say she went to live at Ephesus with him. From these writings, we learn that when she died her body was placed in a temporary tomb. We also know that the bodies and relics of Saints were highly prized and zealously guarded Yet, here with Mary, certainly the most privileged of Saints, certainly the most saintly, no record of her bodily remains anywhere and no bones were ever found.

 

 

Jesus taught us how to pray...he said...."Our Father which art in heaven." He NEVER EVER wants us to talk to the dead. There is very strict prohibition against this in scripture.

Spiritism, witches, mediums and necromancers (those who communicate with the dead) are NOT approved in Scripture. In fact, a number of stern passages warn against any involvement with or practice of these satanic arts (paganism). Deut 18:9-12 includes these practices in a list of nine abominations that stand in opposition to revelation from God thru his prophets. Lev 19:26,31 and 20:6,27 also sternly caution against consulting a medium, a sorceress or anyone who practices divination. This was so strong that God said anyone involved in this were to be put to death, and the community was not to tolerate them.

So I know you are going to say you don't exactly do this Lula...but it's pretty close to the fire. You are speaking/praying to the dead. They are NOT aware of what's going on down here according to scripture so why would you pray to them? They are like false idols that the pagans would pray to. They are dead to us. They cannot answer your prayers. Believe me they are not even concerned with what's going on down here. They are in the presence of God. All else pales in comparison.

tova posts #126

Well, TOVA7, your lecture to me is rich....rich in irony...

It is a prime example of Protestant inchoherance. How many times I've heard of the sick and suffering traveling long distances to reach the places where Protestant stage "healing services" in the belief that they need the intervention of those who preside at those gatherings (can you say middle man?)

No one else but these "healers" will do...why then Tova7 do they not go directly to God?

These "healers" make a point of assuring their admirers that they themselves are not doing the healing, that God is. What then is their role? According to you, it's MIDDLE MAN, Tova7.

If the miracle workers are not serving as a middle man between the person who wants the healing and God, what are they doing there?