Tova...or SC

I don't have a My Account in the forums at all.  There is nothing at the top but just a blank brown space.  Is that where it's supposed to be?

I do have "Account" at the top of my main blog at the top but when I click on that it's just my personal info like name and birthday with no watchlist at all.  I can'f find anywhere where it says watchlist.   

I saw "replies" once like a week or so ago but haven't seen it since.  That feature is a must really because you forget what articles you blogged on to keep up with the conversation but now I can't find the reply button anymore.   So I'm sure I'm awol on a few. 

So am I missing some pieces of this puzzle? 

T....maybe you might want to shoot me an email? 

Okay, this is from the forums, not the main JU page, so click on the link on the main JU page that says "Joe User Forums". Along the top, you'll see a similar list to mine. (If for some reason you're not logged in, just enter the same info for main JU in the boxes). When you're logged in, you'll have a row along the top just like mine. The little protozoa looking thing (that's my mouse cursor, thank you CursorFX and the Stardock kids) is right under "Personal Messages". Just click that, and it will open up your inbox.

Hope that helps!

Yes, it did help.....in case you don't see this on another posting...you've got mail....

it was a log in problem and now I'm set.

  

For some reason the forums aren't being logged in from when you log in on the main page, so almost every time you open up the forums for the first time after dumping your cookies or clearing your history you'll have to log in.

I know it's on Brad's shortlist of things that need fixing, so I gather it'll be fixed sooner rather than later.

An update on the California ruling:

Parents are now reacting and have said they have been taken off guard about this and will not comply.  That would mean they would have to move out of state. 

One mom was quoted in a news article I read saying she was shocked it could happen so quickly and that with a snap of the fingers her fundamental right to teach her own children is  taken away. 

One nine year old when he heard about this story likened this ruling to the same as the "bad man in Germany" not remembering his name. 

Yes, Adolf Hitler also banned Home Schooling in 1938.  Do we want to go there? 

 

 

First off, your source was suspect, so i went and checked this out somewhere else.

Secondly, is it really constitutional? Does it really state in the constitution that parents are allowed to teach their children what they want? From what I've read and studied it isn't, and therefore it cannot be a constitutional right. However, I'll have to ask a friend who's in law school because he is better versed in this type of thing.

For me, it makes sense to have kids schooled up to a point, and i honestly think that should be up to 12th grade. There is a certain expectation that those who go out into a work place should have a decent education, and to rob them of that isn't fair to them. Not just that, but some children change their minds on what they want to go into college for/do after high school. Why rob them of knowledge that could open them up to a career/field that they enjoy?

And I agree with the comment about teaching just the bible. This could (note *could*) easily be used to claim that parents have the right to teach their children whatever they want.

Thirdly, it's sad that the constitution is being used these days as nothing more than a way to get a person(s) way. It's even sadder that many don't truly understand it. I'm not about to say i understand it completely, but im more than willing to learn, when there are some who are not.

Who said life is (or should be) fair? It isn't, and it shouldn't be.

You know I'm pretty liberal, but as far as this goes, this is unacceptable. (And I'm not the kind of cat that'll be home schooling my little ones.) But people should have the opportunity to educate those children how they want.

How I look at it? If their education sucks, good. Less competition for me because my education ROCKS.

Life isn't fair. It won't be, it can't be, and we shouldn't try to make it so.

Does it state in the constitution that the government is going to teach the children?

But there is this funny little clause about freedom of religion that IS in the constitution. And this other funny little amendment that clearly states "The powers not delegated...." Funny how that works. I dont seem to recall a later amendment delegating that power to the feds or states.

All states set standards for Home schooling, and that is fine. Forbidding it is clearly not one of the powers "delegated" to any states or the feds. Especially since at the time of the creation of the Constitution, most children WERE home schooled (the concept of Public education began later and was strictly a local option as COMMUNITIES got together to create COMMUNITY schools.)

Is the esteemed gentleman also aware that during the later part of the 50s and early 60s, some localities did not offer public education? And that there was nothing the feds could or did do about that?

Suspect?  How?  You didn't say. 

And?  Of course you can check this out because it's all over the place.  There's nothing suspect about it. 

Parents allowed?  Give me a break!  So let's have the government schools teach our kids whatever?  So when these kids are told to "tell" on their parents that's ok with you?  That's what happened in Nazi Germany.   

Let me guess.  You don't have kids right?  If not, I'd like to talk with you one minute after your child is born. 

Really?  And what % of kids that are homeschooled change their minds in comparison to kids who are NOT homeschooled?  Any figures out there?  Besides that....who says that Homeschooled parents are robbing their kids of knowledge? 

Ok, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.  But what about those whose opinions are otherwise?  Do you force them to take your opinion on? 

I think you don't understand at all. 

Really?  That's what you think homeschool moms are doing?  I think not.  There are many reasons why parents homeschool.  Many.  I've never heard it was to get their way and/or to fight the constitution and I've known many homeschooled families over the years.  The most frequent reason out there is they want their kids to have a biblical worldview and not to be influenced by what the world wants to teach them.  They want their kids not to be influenced but to be an influence to society. 

of course they should.  It's their childrend, not the government's.  This right is as old as the hills. 

well from what I know about Homeschoolers in general is that the Colleges are quick to enroll them for many reasons.  They find these kids are quick starters, independent learners and very disciplined. 

Besides all that not all kids are so inclined to learn the way the school teaches.  There are many successful people walking around out here that got lost in the system, some either failing or dropping out totally.  For the most part, they survived and I know many that did very well with their lives as productive citizens.  Maybe had they been homeschooled it would have been better for them? 

Exactly.  Life is not fair.  It's just the way it is. 

Homeschooling was the norm.  The Government Schools are here for our convenience and should never be mandated.  If parents wish to homeschool we should encourage them to do so.  No one is going to take care of my child like I am. 

Probably he is NOT aware. 

 

 

 

 

Silent Poet posts:

Throughout the years I've had to opt out my children from what I call objectionable education. At the top of the form that I drew up I cite Federal Public Law 96-88, TItle I, Section 101 which reads in part, "...parents have the primary responsibility for the education of their children, and states, localitites, and private institutuions have the primary responsibility for supporting that parental role."

The US Constitution does not provide for a federal role in education. It reserves that authority for the states. Yet, time and time again, we have seen the federal government usurp their authority and this is costing taxpayers billions of dollars. So education is not a Constitutional issue....it reverts to the states.

I did some digging and learned that in 2005, the House passed by 320-91 a resolution introduced by Rep. Tim Murphy of Pennsylvania. It indicates that Congressman are starting to understand that we cannot live under the unconstitutional notion that whatever some judge rules is 'the law of the land'. Teh resolution stated such decisions as

Meyer v. Nebraska 1923, where the Supreme Court (SC) recognized that the liberty granted by the 14th Amendment encompasses "the power of parents to control the education of their children'.

In Pierce v. Society of Sisters 1925, emphasized that "the child is not the mere creature of the state; those who mnurture him and direct his destiny have the right, coupled with the high duty to recognize and prepare him for additional oblligations.";

In Wisconsin v. Yoder 1972, the SC acknowledged that "This primary role of the parents in the upbringing of their children is now established beyond debate as an enduring American tradition....The duty to prepare the child for "additional obligations" referred to the Court in Pierce must be read to include the inculcation of moral standards, religious beliefs, and elements of good citizenship";

In Troxel v. Granville 2000, the plurality of the SC stated, "it cannot now be doubted that he Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment protects the fundamental right of parents to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children.

The rights of parents ought to be strengthened whereever possible as the family is the cornerstone of society, the fundamental right of the parents to educate their children goes without saying....it's also firmly grounded in our Constitutions and traditions.

DRGUY POSTS:

Here's a high five to you, Doc for noting this important point.

The ridiculousness of this deplorable decision made upon California families is that the federal government, some state government as well as some federal and state judges HAVE overstepped their delegated powers! and problem is way too many of "we, the people", haven't a clue....it's not like they are teaching civics anymore! and people are so busy going about living their lives, they don't even know what's happening to them as their freedoms get taken away little by little.

KFC POSTS:

From what I can tell, it's the homeschoolers who are taking all the first place awards in spelling, history, writing and math bees....and are the same ones getting the highest SAT scores, etc.



Ditto here.



Yes. It was John Dewey, the highly celebrated American educatior and philosopher, who applied the values of humanism to the system of government schools. Dewey admitted that Humanism is a "philosophical, religious, and moral point of view." During the 30 and 40s he preached the doctrine that belief in God, was an "encumbrance" for which we should liberate ourselves. He wrote, "Children must be conditioned , through gradual indoctrination, to reject the processes transmitted by their parents and churches, so they may be prepared for the new world social order." By the time the 60s and 70s rolled in, the secular humanists had gained control of our public educational system and so that a new, more open "value free" attitude could be instilled in the minds of our youth. In order to be successful, they knew they had to overcome and wean the students of all the "old fashioned", "repressive", "moralistic values" acquired at home and church. The principles of secular humanism were to be applied to our school's curriculum by using the teaching techniques such as "values clarification", "situation ethics", "role playing", etc.

This is when homeschooling made a dramatic come-back and has been surging ever since.

Off topic, but may i ask what you consider the "family"?



Yes i've heard/read about it.



I've read that too, but then there are horror stories concerning homeschoolers or there are those like some friends of mine who were pretty much screwed when they home schooled.

Like ive always said, my concern is for the children, period.



Sure life isn't fair, I realize that perfectly well, but does that mean that in all areas it should stay that way? Hell no, and especially not in education. My opinion isn't really about fair, it is about the children - period. They're who i have in mind.




Never said it did, what I'm talking about is that the decision was obviously based on the previous ruling, because it does not state anywhere that homoeschooling is a right. And your argument is a bit odd, because:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." ~10th Amendment

So, let me ask you this. If they're given the right, then why is it taken away in court cases? To me it's contrary to the constitution.

Also, to me it makes sense to public educate them. There are a lot of factors involved besides just what they are taught. I know, i was home schooled. Some examples are lack of social skills, shyness, personality problems, insecurities, and other things. And I am not saying give your child a moral compass according to what you desire, or to not instill you religious beliefs.

Also, and maybe I'm off on what "religion" clause you implied, but isnt that merely for the free excersize thereof? How does education, something that is as far as i know, a civic service, equate with religion?



Only reason I checked it is because the site you got it from seemed fairly biased, and I've long since learned from a debacle of mine a while back, to check multiple sources when something is posted. So, it's nothing against you/nothing personal.



I believe in a federal standard, which would include:

Reading/Writing/Math: Self explained.

History/Geography: Actual fact based history, because history can teach a lot, and not just knowledge, but wisdom and more.

A foreign langauge: The world is becoming less vast, and learning one can really help a child. It helped me, now if only i could retain it.



First off, that comment of mine was referencing something off topic. I wasn't just implying the possibility of homeschoolers using it for that way, but also when other people use it for their so called constitutional rights, which don't exist.

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with being influenced by society. There are good and bad, but isn't also about how the child grows? By homeschooling them there's the possibility of

Sadly, if the parent is afraid of being influenced by society, then it sounds like maybe
(*maybe*) they don't feel that their influence on their child is on par. It sounds like maybe they feel like if they let their child be influenced by society (which, mind you, is not such a horror) that their influence is going to be overran by society's. It sounds like maybe they're afraid of that. It's as if, "Oh my goodness, if my child view's just one second of some rapper glorifying whores, he's gonna go to hell." (More or less...)

If it is based on fear, and an irrational thing.



I already said, "I'm not about to say i understand it completely, but im more than willing to learn..." I would like to add, that yes, perhaps I dont understand it correctly, but as I stated, I am willing to learn. I'm not about to say im brilliant, i am far from it.

I'm learning and growing



I respect other opinions, but opinions don't always equate to logic or what is good for a child/society, and they are not always sensible. Opinions are as they are, opinions.

(And yes I am falliable, and more than willing to change my view on something if I see enough/something to change it.)

I will agree with you 99% here. The 1% is a minor quibble, in that...what freedms. I mean there are those who shout that one thing or another is a freedm, but it actually isn't.

But yes, most people just live life.

The thing i fear though, is the homeschooled child whose parents indoctrinate them with a wild and fanatial religious fever, and totally send them down a path that is illogical and unwise, leaving them unready for real life.

Again, the children are what's important to me here.

(And KFC, this is coming from a person who does believe in the supreme being, your God. )

lula posts:



Well since you told KFC that you believe in the Supreme Being, God, I'll answer this way.

God created families as one man and one woman united in marriage for life with children either by birth or adoption. Throughout Scripture God speaks to us in terms of family. We are His children, He is our Father. God created the family to be the basis of society. It's the original cell of social life. The family is the natural society.

According to the catechism of the Catholic Chruch the duties of parents #2222, Parents must regard their children as children of God and respect them as human persons. Showing themselves obedient to the will of the Father in Heaven they educate their children to fulfill God's law.

2223, Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children, They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelty, and disinterested service to one another is the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self mastery--the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the "material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones". Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children.

2229 As those first responsible for the education of their children, parents have the right to choose a school for them which corresponds to their own convictions. This right is fundamental. As far as possible parents have the duty of choosing schools that will best help them in their task as Christian educators. Public authorities have the duty of guaranteeing this parental right and of ensuring the concrete conditions for its exercise.

Yet, over the last 40 or so years, our society has consistently and purposefully attempted to change the meaning of family. Traditional marriage has suffered tremendously from the effects no fault divorce, cohabitation, and now legalization of "same-sex marriage".

Here in the case we are discussing we see various powers of the state and federal government have devalued parenthood, as they take more authority in this issue of education.