I suppose Adam and Eve had this paradise before they screwed up sans the jewel encrusted pyramids that angels are all so fond of. Angels love gemstones, you know.

Will people that go to Heaven have free will in it, too? What happens when one of them screws up?

And don't say no one will screw up because Satan won't be there to instigate it. That puts the blame squarely on Satan's shoulders and indicates a serious (understatement) mis-punishment.

So...

If Heaven goers have free will in Heaven
Then (They are just as likely to screw up as Adam and Eve did) OR (The whole thing is Satan's fault to begin with, and the wrong parties are being punished for it)
Else (Heaven is full of robots)

Why would you be sorrowful if all you have explained is true?

Because you miss them now. When my closest relative or friend dies even if I know they are going to heaven because they have a relationship with Jesus, it doesn't stop me from mourning them here and now. Death is separation. I mean don't you cry when you put your loved one on a plane sometimes especially if you're not going to see him/her for a long time? You know you'll see them down the road but you still cry right?

Tears, anguish, grief and sorrow make no sense at all. Funerals would be a place of celebration and joy.

Well hopefully it does now. I have seen the celebration and joy you speak of even with the tears at Christian funerals. I've been to both Christian and non-Christian funerals and there is a big difference among the people at these funerals. Grief at both, yes, but an unspeakable joy and a knowing we'll someday be united with our Christian brothers and sisters in eternity. I have witnessed despair, fear and a thirst for knowledge about the afterlife at the funerals of unbelievers.

I suppose Adam and Eve had this paradise before they screwed up sans the jewel encrusted pyramids that angels are all so fond of. Angels love gemstones, you know.

I don't know. I guess we'll never know at least this side of eternity.

Will people that go to Heaven have free will in it, too? What happens when one of them screws up?

I imagine but I haven't been there yet remember. Nobody is going to screw up. It also says in Rev 21:27:

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie; but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

God says the former things are passed away and things will be new.

And don't say no one will screw up because Satan won't be there to instigate it. That puts the blame squarely on Satan's shoulders and indicates a serious (understatement) mis-punishment.

no Satan's demise is very clearly outlined in, not only Genesis but also Revelation.

"and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." 20:10

Remember Jesus said that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. It was NEVER said to be prepared for mankind. But those that follow Satan now will also find their place with him and his demons in the end.

There will be no robots in heaven. From what I can see, we are all going to receive glorified bodies (like Christ) and with these new heavenly bodies we won't have the fleshly desires we have in this life. God said all things will be new. So not only will we go back to perfection as God's creation, we now will have the knowledge to go along with it and we will know NOT to go back there.

Doesn't that make sense?

Doesn't that make sense?

Not really, sorry

What makes sense to me is a God makes things the right way in the first place. In fact, I still can't reconcile a perfect being with punishment. My logic tree still says "IF there is a God, THEN everything must be perfect just how it is" and I don't mean "Yeah, it's perfect that bad people are gonna get it in the neck in the end...Hahahahaha oh how they'll pay while I'm rolling around in diamonds!" On the contrary, I mean that there must be some purpose served by these "bad" people - a purpose this God totally expects, and in fact designed into the whole deal. The concept of "evil" is a matter of our limited human perception which makes some acts extremely repugnant to us due to our fear of them. A God which punishes "evil" is just a wish on the part of humans who cannot understand why bad things happen to good people i.e. who cannot understand God. They then project on to this God what *they* would do to the evil ones. Send them to hell for not making the grade, of course.

I have tried over the years to see it other ways. I say my brain won't let me. Or that my faith in the unsurpassed goodness of a creator (should one exist) won't let me. You would say it is Satan. It's Satan that gives me the ability to imagine a God that is infinitely more forgiving than the Christian god.

Fascinating idea, that one.

Maybe it is selfish on our part.  But you know as well as I do that we are emotional creatures.  We do cry when separation occurs.  Children cry when they are separated from their mothers even if only for a few moments.  Husbands and wives do cry when they put their loved ones on a plane. Heck people cry when their loved one is going off to surgery no matter how risky.  People cry when their neighbors move away.  It happens.  So why does it surprise you (it shouldn't) that people cry at funerals even knowing they are in a better place? 

Well I'll admit I've never gone to a Buddhist funeral so I really can't comment on that.  I can only vouch for those I've been to and heard of personally and that is the difference between a believer's funeral and a non-believer's funeral. 

I understand but for many they still grieve when separated no matter the time involved.  Everyone is different but I would venture the majority feels some sort of sorrow of despair when a loved one departs for especially an extended period of time.   For some in the service they never get "used to it."  Others do quite well and see it as a fact of life and get on with it.  Again, everyone is different.  It's the same at funerals.  Some cry and grieve hard and some look at it from a logical POV in that they will be reunited someday.  But even for them there is some sadness involved. 

Yes, I believe Satan has blinded the world to what he's doing and he's replaced the truth with lies.  There is none more forgiving nor more patient than God.  He's a God of more than second chances.  The problem Ock is the fact that you feel he should give you another chance after this life right?  I mean after you die, and then you "see" it firsthand you'd expect that he's going to give you yet another chance to be all forgiving?  How about being held accountable for your actions? 

Yes, that and your will NOT to believe.  It doesn't matter what I say or what I show you, you desire NOT to believe it.   That's ok.  I actually understand more than you know.  I do know that right thinking precedes right living and that everything starts with a thought.  I was where you were (sort of) once upon a time and it was God changing my way of thinking that started me on the road I'm on now.  I've heard people say not only to me but to others that it doesn't really matter what they say (or I say), they will never believe it to be true.  That's a willful ignorance.  Only God can change hearts and minds toward Him.  Not me nor anybody. 

Well how about a Judge making a rightesous judgment?  Does that help?  Could you not reconcile a nice likeable judge putting somebody on death row?  Could it be the way you're thinking of it?  Could it be the way your "brain" is taking you?  

Well one thing you realize when you come to God honestly Ock is the fact that our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his.  We don't see the whole parade at once.  We only see what's in front of our face pretty much.  So it's a good thing it's not up to us eh?  How righteous would our judgment be?

and I'm not really surprised.  But you asked and I answered. 

I haven't read every single reply, because, heh, there are so many and I am on my way out.

I did read the first several though.

I don't have a problem with what heaven is made out of. God says he loves us, is willing to die for us. I believe earth is beautiful, every part of it, and an amazing creation. Gold, silver, gem stones, are part of this amazing creation that God made for us because He loves us so well.

Who says all things of value on earth, all things pretty and nice, will be worthless in heaven?

Why would God go to so much trouble to make the earth so awesome, just to throw out all the great ideas when preparing our place in heaven?

I don't think the gems will be worth anything monetarily, their worth will be in their beauty, in the fact Jesus prepared them for our visual pleasure.

If diamonds became as abundant as salt today.....the lack of value would only be in our human monetary system....their beauty would remain.

I love the idea KFC of exploring infinite planets and stars. When I think about it, that makes a certain kind of sense. After all why did God make all those billions of stars? He coulda just put a wet blanket in our heavens, but instead chose to create places, stars, suns.

I think we will have work to do in heaven, much like Adam did in Eden. God doesn't do loads of relaxation. He took one day to rest out of seven. I believe we will be working, doing something productive in heaven. I don't think it will be a retirement, sit around and visit kind of place all the time....but who knows.

Part of the wonder of heaven (for me) is not knowing. But if I use earth as any indication of God's intentions toward heaven....it will be magnificent!

Are you suggesting I am not?

There you go assuming again.  I actually will TO believe, but the ideas are so incredibly juvenile, I can't.  I would have to ascribe mental retardation to God to believe the shit you shovel.  Sorry for the colorful metaphor, but I couldn't think of a better way to put it.  I mean no offense.

That makes sense in a closed system where the actions of a renegade can affect the lives of others.  It does not make sense in an afterlife where the system is infinite.

Clearly my judgment would be more forgiving than your God's.  Were I of infinite wisdom and love, I would remediate the misguided so that they could join their loved ones in Gem City.  I believe most wrong doing is not done for the sake of the wrong doing but is instead the result of many influences native to this world.  Poverty, poor upbringing, etc...So is it righteous to decide to help the misguided sheep find their way after death?  I think so, because most of them never asked for the hand they got dealt.  I'm sure that your desire for those that aren't "of the body" to suffer for eternity will cause you to disagree.

A thought occurred after I posted that, and I don't know how to edit posts in this new system.

What happened to turning the other cheek?  Does God not turn the other cheek?  Right now, he seems a bit like an "eye for an eye" God as you describe him.  That's an understatement.  He isn't even that fair.  He's more of an "eternal pain for an eye" as you describe him.

And another thought.  What would you feel like if you got to heaven and it turned out that God had taken in Charles Manson and Hitler with all their warts?  Would you be mad because you had worked so hard for your salvation only to find that the rif raf got in, too?  Would you think it unfair?  *I* would think "Now THAT is forgiveness...this guy is really very nice!"

 

You're speaking about the law of nonresistance.  If you look at that verse you quoted to in context (Matt 5:38-42) you'd see the whole principle is to be willing to suffer loss for another.  I'm going to say without a doubt God did do this when he put his son on the cross.  Take a look at the scene of the cross.  Didn't Jesus more than turn his cheek when he said just before he died at his enemie's hands.... "father forgive them for they know not what they do?" 

But God is many things.  He's a righteous God.  He's a merciful God.  He's a loving God.  But he's also a God of Justice.  His justice will be satisfied after all is done.  So you will not be able to say honestly in front of God that he didn't give you enough chances.  He'll make sure you see your life flash before your eyes and you'll instantly recognize all those people, places and events in your life that should have led you to him, but instead you CHOSE to take another route. 

I never said he was fair.  Ever.  If he was fair, then we'd ALL deserve to go to hell.  But in his mercy and grace he died to give us another chance.  If he were fair his son would have never died in our stead.

 John 3:16 says, that God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever BELIEVED in him shall never perish but have eternal life.  So there is the forgiving God you speak so unkindly about.  Here is the God who most definitely turned the other cheek....for some.  Not for all.  But he gave us the opportunity to do so and I, for one took ahold of that and haven't looked back. 

First of all......No, I'm going to be so grateful.  I'm not going to have time or energy to be mad.  I'll be too busy singing and rejoicing.   Second of all, it's not my call.  It's not my say who gets to enter into God's house just like it's not my say who you invite into your home.  Right? 

Thrid, I do not work for my salvation and just shows me you do not understand the whole salvation message.  We do not work to get into heaven.  We simply believe that Jesus did the work for us and live our lives accordingly.  Belief is the only requirement.  Our works are a result of our gratefulness. 

"For by Grace are you saved through faith and that NOT of yourselves; it is the gift of God.  NOT by works, lest any man should boast." 

But I understand your background (mine also) and works based salvation was stressed.  It's very common among religions to make sure their people are working for their salvation.  I don't buy it because the bible doesn't teach it.  There is no such thing that we need to work out way to eternal life, biblically speaking that is. 

 

 

  

Notice the personal pronouns in what you just wrote in this above paragraph.  It's all about you, and your thoughts and ideas.  That's what it's all about Ock.  That's what the whole of spiritual warfare is all about right from the Garden.  Look at how Satan lured Eve.  It was all about her and what she could achieve outside of God.  He was appealing to her pride. 

Do me a favor....get your bible and read Isaiah 14 and notice the same mentality of Satan as you showed me here.  Specifically in v12-23.  Notice the "I wills" 

If you compare Satan to Jesus you'd notice Satan was all about me, myself and I (with a very big Capital) and Jesus was all about doing his "father's will."  Even in the Garden (not a coincidence) he said "not my will, but yours" the night before he was to give his life up for ours.

It's all about who's spirit is inside us Ock. 

of course!  That's really what it comes down to isn't it?  Your will not God's will. 

Ok...I read it and fail to see how it applies to what I wrote. If it's evil for me to be able to imagine a more compassionate way of doling out judgment, then evil I be.

And I'll happily go to hell for trying to imagine your god as greater than you imagine him. Hopefully he'll at least be flattered as he sends me to my eternal doom.



If you believe in free will, then it is necessary that it be the only will you have. If there's a God, and he wills something, I wouldn't ever be so stupid as to think I could change or stop it. But it doesn't mean "don't think" or "don't question" to me. For me (opinion) not thinking because the thoughts I should have are already laid out and not questioning because there is no question unanswered that has any value is an affront to any deity that gave me a brain. If I was given a brain by some intelligent designer, I am going to go out on a big limb and assume it wasn't to keep my skull from collapsing.

Funny such insight and wisdom could come from South Park.

 

hey, well at least you read it.  Now meditate a bit on it.  Think about it. 

Now think about this.  There are many names for God as he has many characteristics.  The name that is used here in this scripture is Elyon and means "the strongest; strong one."  Basically this is saying that Satan is coveting God's strength.  Another name for God is "El Shaddai" and means "breasted one."  It basically speaks to the maternal comfort that God gives to his people.  Satan is not interested in being the El Shaddai but the Elyon God.  His pride demands nothing less. 

well you may say that now and sound big Ock but you won't be laughing on the other side of eternity.  There's nothing funny about Hell.  Nothing.  In fact, I think I'll do a summary of hell like  I did here on heaven and it willl be just for you.  I mean I know you want to be informed to the fullest so how about you know exactly what you're in for?  I know. I know.  You don't believe in hell right?  

then why not use it as it was intended........

 

Because sometimes you do. That's all, it felt like a bait.

I don't have an answer, I haven't been there, I haven't spent years studying different scriptures trying to figure it out. It's not really important to me what everything is made of in Heaven. I just know it'll be awesome. I do, however, think that it is figurative, because, like Isaiah, John uses a lot of figurative language and metaphors in the Book of Revelation. How do you tell what's a metaphor and what is literal?

I guess we'll find out sooner or later!

What if you're not turned on by shiny rocks? I mean they're fun and all...but true beauty for me lies in the natural world...organic stuff, living stuff, things that change and move and thrive. Could we get log cabins in the woods if we prefer rather than a shiny city?

~Zoo