This Will Be the Real War of Terror
Published on August 25, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
We've already covered the first five seals opened by the Lamb of God and now we're about to read of the opening of the sixth seal which is to be the most frightening yet. Opening up this seal is like the first act of an end time play revealing a very disturbing scene with more to come. First the text:

12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Why is He telling us this? It's very clear when one reads scripture that God is a God of many chances. He's not one to surprise us without giving us every chance available. Here, He's warning us. He wants us to know that there will be a day of wrath. There will be a day of judgment. The world says "no." The prevailing thought of today is the world will not end anytime soon. Certainly, a loving God will not close down this earth as we know it. There will be no final curtain call. Right?

Well if scripture is correct, this earth will end as we know it. There will be a day of judgment. We need to be motivated to tell the world there is a way out. We need to tell others there is a Savior who will save us from the wrath to come.

We see from the Epistles, mostly written by Paul, a sense of urgency. The first Christians were anxious for the day to come. They wished and waited for justice to be had in their lifetime. The desire was to be reunited with God.

So here the opening of this seal starts with an earthquake. In the latest news we've read of an earthquake in Peru and Jamaica, but this is just a small taste, a warning of what is to come. How many went into eternity without Christ after hearing the message?

Our Pastor believes the "Day of the Lord" starts here. Some say earlier, some say later. The opening of this seal initiates wrath coming from heaven, not the earth.

We know that scripture is clear that while the believer is to have tribulation in his life, wrath is only for the unbelievers. The believers will not be here. The believers will be saved from God's wrath. We read in Romans 5:9:

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Now going back to Matthew 24 as we have been doing with all these seals we see a connection here with 24:29 which says:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

Jesus gave a complete picture in Matthew as did John in Revelation and the two fit perfectly together. Here's the seals' timeline.


Beginning............................Middle.......................................End.

l______________________l____________________ l
#1,2,3,4....................................#5 .............#6

Birth Pangs.....................Persecution Wrath

So first we see nature responds with a great earthquake. This will be worldwide, not like what we are seeing today. This quake will receive the attention of the world. Every place will shake. This quake will put the insurance industry out of business. This will be an extreme world makeover like never before, and it will not be a good thing.

We see:
Sun turns black
Moon like blood
Stars fall
Sky recedes
Mountains and Islands move

We see the Sun turns black. What happens when the earth quakes? Dust, debris, gases rise blocking out the Sun. Remember Mt. St. Helens? Remember the stories of complete blackness that surrounded the whole area? It will be similar but oh so much worse than a local volcano spillover.

Sackcloth is a symbol of mourning, dark and drab and not a pleasant article of clothing by any means. Somehow the gases of the earth will even change the color of the moon to blood red.

The stars falling is likened to a shaken fig tree and reminds us of meteor showers. The earth is shaken with such force it seems as tho there will be meteorites crashing to the earth, as figs falling from the tree, as this whole thing takes place.

John also sees the earth split apart and every mountain and island moving out of it's place. Oh the fear and dread John must have felt as he took pen to scroll to capture this down in writing. His horror will never be fully known this side of eternity.

Now this must not have totally surprised John nor should it us. The prophets wrote about this. They looked ahead and saw these future events. but it was John who put it all together from start to finish. Here's a few examples in the OT.:

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord." Joel 2:30-31

The great day of the Lord is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out.That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers.“I will bring distress upon men, And they shall walk like blind men, Because they have sinned against the Lord;
Their blood shall be poured out like dust, And their flesh like refuse.”Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the Lord’s wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured. Zeph 1:14-18


The unrepentant sinful people will not be saved. They had no wish to be so. They made it quite clear. Their wealth will be useless. It cannot deliver.

God wants us to know this stuff. He wants it proclaimed from the rooftops. This world will not last forever. We are now living in the age of Grace, but this will not last forever.

Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it. For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter. Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses,
And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.: Isaiah 34:1-4


When we look at the list of who's who in V15 we have to ask ourself, "Who are greater than these?" We see:

Kings (Political
Great Men (Princes)
Rich (Economic
Commanders (Military)

And with the mighty, slave and free we've just about covered everyone that would be on the face of the earth during this time.

This will be a time of terror, fear, trembling. Notice they will try to hide themselves. Why? The guilty always hide before God. Remember Adam and Eve hiding before God after they sinned? It's interesting they will hide in the rocks. To a Christian Christ is THE ROCK. He is our Rock of Refuge. These people will know where this is coming from. There will be no "I didn't know."

There is a God. He's not happy. They will hide in caves as pure panic captures the earth. Isaiah says in 2:19-21:

They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily. In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver And his idols of gold,
Which they made, each for himself to worship, To the moles and bats,To go into the clefts of the rocks, And into the crags of the rugged rocks, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily
.

How about this from the lips of Christ himself? In Luke 23:28-31 he says:

28But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29“For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30“Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’ 31“For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?

While he was here on earth his message was fresh and green but now we are in the dry period. He's talking about now. The world says, "Nonsense, go read your book." And we do.

The word wrath is "orge" and means, "agitation of the soul, any violent emotion, anger, wrath, indignation, anger exhibited in punishment."

What we are seeing here is the lamb of God metamorphising into the Lion of Judah.

Sin has to be punished. A just God cannot leave sin unpaid. Who is able to stand? No one. Those who think they are going to stop God and are shaking their fist at Him all over the world haven't a clue who and what they are dealing with. Other scriptures that should give one pause are:

Psalm 2, 76:7, Malachi 3:2, Nahum 1:6 and Luke 21:25-26 we will end with:

25“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26“men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken








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Comments (Page 3)
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on Sep 05, 2007
If Lula's right, the Bible IS out of date. If all this stuff happened in 70 AD, the Millenial Kingdom has been over for almost 1000 years. Don't know why we're here.

How does a book foretelling a future that has not come go out of date? It's either accurate and true, or inaccurate and false. Never out of date though. The only thing that would make it out of date is if something happened after it was written that would make it wrong. Well, everything that it says happened, happened. Everything that it says will happen, it did not put a time limit on. So it may still happen. Nothing has happened to preclude it from happening, either. So it's not out of date.

Anyone who does not want to take the Bible into consideration is welcome not to.

What makes someone a realist, anyway?
on Sep 05, 2007
How can an old book, quaint though it is, foretell any events?


Actually Adnauseam this book is old, but not dead. It's alive. There are many many prophetic things that have happened. I can show you going back many prophecies that have already come to pass. I can show you how the great world powers came to be after a dream that a Babylonian King had and was interpreted by Daniel. I can show you how Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great prophesied hundereds of years before exactly as predicted.

I can show you how Israel was to become a Nation which they did in 1948. Anyone writing in the 1800's laughed at that idea. JC Ryle wrote an article in the 1800's about Israel coming into being as a nation because he was reading scripture and could see it. Many said it would never happen. The Jews were disbursed for about 2,000 years with no country. This was the greatest prophecy that came true in our lifetime. Read Ezek 37 for that one and get back to me.

I can give you page after page. The OT was full of prophecies concerning the upcoming Messiah. The Jews knew and were expecting a Messiah to come but when Jesus came they didn't accept him because he didn't fit their agenda. He wasn't the type they expected.

I would love to debate more but I doubt you would like to take a Realist head on.This realist, unfortunately is not prepared to discuss out of date texts!


you keep hanging onto that description (realist) and I've told you before I am a realist as well. So what? A realist can't believe the bible is the true word of God?

I have no problem taking a realist head on Adnauseam. I say this with a smile.....bring it on!! But it's in no way an out of date text. The words in this bible are still fresh and revelent for us today.



on Sep 05, 2007
LULA POSTS:


The four last things are Death, Judgment, Hell or Heaven.


KFC POSTS: Generally speaking yes, for all of us so far. But not all are going to die in the end times. Remember Paul when he said that some will be caught up ALIVE?


Yes, I know this. 1Thess. says, "and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together.."


LULA POSTS:

the Final Judgment which is when all the tribulation and wrath is over and done with.


KFC POSTS:

the final judgment at the end is only unbelievers. This great white throne judgment is NOT believers. They have a separate judgment. They are not put together.


Whoa! This what you say is definitly a Rapturist belief. We are going to have a battle over this one.

Everyone will face the Final Judgment. Jesus' parable about the Master rewarding His servants is a good one to illustrate this. After the final, cosmic upheaval of the world, Christ comes again for the Final Judgement of everyone which, I'm quite certain, is called the Great White Throne Judgment. At our death, we go through the Particular Judgment and then we go through the Final, Last Judgment.

I say it comes after tribulation but before God's wrath. Some believe it comes before both. That would be pre-trib. What I'm writing here is more mid-trib or another word for this would be pre-wrath.


This is where you lose me, big-time. I can't keep up with all these Rapturist terms. I never know whose doing what when.   

He also says that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. He's speaking of those of us alive here on earth when God begins to unleash his wrath. We who are alive will be "caught up" (raptured) before he judges the earth.


No, I can't agree here either. In the twinkling of an eye is the time when we receive our glorified bodies meaning it's going to happen very quickly. He's speaking of all of those who have died, are resurrected and those who are alive will be "caught up" together and go up to meet Him at His Second Coming.

Then those with Him will go down and He will Judge them (unleash His wrath, as you say) and the saved will go on His RIght side and the wicked will be placed on His left side. After the Final and universal JUdgment, those on His right go to Heaven where they glorified in body and soul, will reign forever with Christ, and those on His right are condemned to Hell.



on Sep 05, 2007
JYTHIER POSTS:
If Lula's right, the Bible IS out of date. If all this stuff happened in 70 AD, the Millenial Kingdom has been over for almost 1000 years. Don't know why we're here.


No, the Bible is far, far from out of date. Remember, it's salvation history according to God Himself through His chosen sacred writers.


St.John's Revelation is prophecy. KFC views it as still needing to be fulfilled. Yet, the only part of the prophecy that still must be fulfilled in Christ's Second Advent for the Final Judgment of the living and the dead at the End of the World.

It really doesn't matter whether St.John wrote it during Nero's percectuion in 68 or under Domitian's persecution in 90AD. Study Sacred Scripture and you will see that all OT prophecy was God's way of warning His people about troubling times ahead and of a coming judgment.

That's exactly what's happening here with St.John who writes very similiarly to the apocalyptic style of Daniel, the 6th century Jewish prophet who wrote to encourage God's people when they were being severly persecuted. They had been defeated and dispersed by the Babylonians.

Daniels' visions take in time periods amounting to 70 weeks. KFC believes Daniel's 70th week, which is the coming of God's kingdom is still in the future.

Daniel's visions overall message teaches the timing and meaning of Christ's First Advent (not future Second Event) and God's spiritual kingdom appeared during the ancient Roman Empire. The 70th week vision was fulfilled in 67-70AD by which time the blessings bestowed upon His Church were evident to the world. (By this I mean the Old Covenant sacrificial Judaism was abolished and the people of the New and Everlasting Covenant in Christ's Blood were free to grow). Christ's Birth, Death, and Resurrection and founding of His spritual kingdom, the Church, are the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies.

From Daniel's perspective, other than the Final Judgment of mankind, there is nothing in these visions still awaiting fulfillment except in the sense that all these events still point to a future death and resurrection of the world itself at the final eschaton.

Where Daniel's 70th week ends, St.John's begins...following Daniel's theme. The scroll's opening reveals the mystery of the Messianic kingdom. The first 7 chapters in Revelation reveal the judgment from the perspective of Christ. They describe the intense persecution that the God's New Covenant kingdom is going through in the 7 years Great Tribulation leading up to God's judgment (wrath) of Jerusalem by the Roman Army in 70AD.

The trumpets view these same events but from the Sanhedrin's eyes.
This follows Daniel's vision of the statue closely and what St.John does here is give more details about what we've just been told in the seals. That's why it's called recapitulation.

The last Chapters will get into the final eschaton. They only ones of St.John's prophecy that are not fulfilled.

You say, if all this stuff happened.....

Well, yes, it did in the events leading up to 70AD and then beyond. Can we examine what happened then and apply that as hope and encouragement for the future? I say yes, absolutely, yes.

On the other side is KFC's view, and I'm not going to change hers any more than she will change mine, so all this should be very interesting reading.








on Sep 05, 2007
Whoa! This what you say is definitly a Rapturist belief. We are going to have a battle over this one.

Everyone will face the Final Judgment.


Really? Then what do you do with this (jumping ahead a bit here)...Revelation 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that has part in the FIRST resurrection on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priestss of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years."

What is this FIRST resurrection? Then continuing on AFTER the thousand years we see:

"And I saw a great white throne and him that sat on it from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them (they couldn't hide). And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God and the books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life."

It goes onto say they will be judged according to THEIR WORKS. What's going to happen is they will be found wanting. Their WORKS will not get them into heaven. ......and whoever was NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (v15).
on Sep 06, 2007

Everyone will face the Final Judgment.


Really? Then what do you do with this (jumping ahead a bit here)...Revelation 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that has part in the FIRST resurrection on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priestss of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years."

What is this FIRST resurrection?


Upon their death, the Christian saints soul is taken straight to Heaven. The 'first resurrection' is not a physical resurrection, but the taking of the soul to Heaven by God. They are the Chruch Triumphant.

Those who experience the first resurrection will never experience "the second death", the lake of fire 20:15. Remember the letter to Smyrna, "He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death." 2:11. The Christians in Smyrna were fighting the temptation of those in "the synagogue of SaTAN." The Jewish leaders were persecuting Christians tyring to get them to forsake their Faith in Christ and return to the Old Covenant sacrifices. St.John writes assures the Chruch in Smyrna that those who die in the Faith will not be hurt by the second death; that is they won't be eternally separated from God after the Final Judgment.

The first resurrection has been occurring throughout the Chruch age which is now, the Millenium. As Christian saints have died, their souls enter Heaven. The rest of the dead do not come to life until the end of the thousand years. ( a symbolic number meaning a long time).

The second resurrection is when ALL, including these saint's souls, will be raised up and their bodies joined to their souls and all will be judged at the Final Judgment.


on Sep 08, 2007
Upon their death, the Christian saints soul is taken straight to Heaven. The 'first resurrection' is not a physical resurrection, but the taking of the soul to Heaven by God. They are the Chruch Triumphant.


No Lula. This doesn't make sense. You've already quoted 1 Thess 4;16-17 so I know you know it. It says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive will be caught up to meet him"

This is the first resurrection. The dead who will rise first are all those who preceded us. We will all receive glorified bodies together at this time. The dead will be reunited with their DNA somehow and recieve their new bodies.

I found the whole DNA discovery fascinating when they started talking about the whole cloning issue because I think it's related to this end time belief. They say you can even take the dust and ashes from an old cemetary burial spot and revive the DNA even after hundreds of years later. My guess is that's what's going to happen at the first resurrection. But notice ONLY believers are included in this. NOT unbelievers.

The first resurrection has been occurring throughout the Chruch age which is now, the Millenium. As Christian saints have died, their souls enter Heaven. The rest of the dead do not come to life until the end of the thousand years. ( a symbolic number meaning a long time).


Their souls have entered heaven BUT they have NOT received their glorified bodies yet, so no resurrection has taken place yet. The souls being released from the bodies is NOT a resurrection. Paul says in Corinthians that our souls go back to God. I don't think the 1,000 years is symbolic either. It can make sense to be taken literally so we do.

on Sep 08, 2007
The 'first resurrection' is the taking of the soul to Heaven by God.


1 Thess 4;16-17 so I know you know it. It says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive will be caught up to meet him"


For starters, not one of my 5 different Bibles links 1Thess. 4:16-17 with Apoc. 20:5-6 and rightly so. 1Thess. 4:16-17 is connected with Christ's Second Coming and the second resurrection which is the one that takes place at the end of time

1Thess. 4:16-17 is the Parousia or rapture of those who have died in Christ and those still alive at the time of the Second Coming of Christ just before the Final Judgment. 1Thess. 4:16-17 has nothing to do with "the first resurrection" of Apoc. 20:5-6.

"the first resurrection" has been occurring throughout the Church age which is now, the Millenium. 20:4 Upon death, the righteous Christian soul goes to Heaven while their physical bodies go to the grave. These souls are said to "live" in Heaven, and this coincides with the Gospel teaching of "life" as the spiritual sense of Baptism which regenerates us and gives us "new life". The souls of Apoc. 20:4 "live" becasue they experienced the first resurrection of 20:5b while they were alive on earth. The first resurrection refers to the resurrection of the human soul out of its spiritual death inherited from Adam which resurrection occurs at Baptism.

Being "born" into new life is synomous with the first resurrection. This truth is found in Eph. 2:1, 5-6; 5:14; Rom. 11:15; Jm. 5:15; Col. 3:1; 2: 12-13.
on Sep 08, 2007
Their souls have entered heaven BUT they have NOT received their glorified bodies yet, so no resurrection has taken place yet. The souls being released from the bodies is NOT a resurrection. Paul says in Corinthians that our souls go back to God.


KFC POSTS: The souls being released from the bodies is NOT a resurrection. Correct, it is not. When the soul is released from our physical body is our actual Death.

Upon our death, our soul is immediately judged by Christ, our Particular Judgement. If we are found righteous, our soul goes to Heaven and this is known as the "first resurrection". Apoc. 20:4-6 speaks of the souls in Heaven who have died fighting the good fight of faith and some have even been beheaded for it. They are reigning with Christ in Heaven.

After Christ's Second Coming, all the dead will rise and be joined with their physical bodies.

I don't think the 1,000 years is symbolic either. It can make sense to be taken literally so we do.


Well, this is Chapter 20 and we can wait and haggle over the literal vs. symbolic interpretation of the 1,000 years then.   
on Sep 08, 2007
Upon our death, our soul is immediately judged by Christ, our Particular Judgement. If we are found righteous, our soul goes to Heaven


I agree with this. First there is death then judgment. Not the great white throne judgement tho. That's at the very end and only for unbelievers.

this is known as the "first resurrection


I don't with this. How can you say this in light of 1 Thess 4:16-17? The resurrection DOES NOT happen until Christ returns. Until then we are spirits awaiting the resurrection.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMP of God AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together WITH THEM (those that died before us) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Where in the heck do you see the first resurrection BEFORE this in scripture? Can you show me?

Let's break this down. We see clearly here:

1. A return of Christ IN THE AIR
2. A RESURRECTION of the dead in Christ
3. A rapture (caught up) of living believers
4. A reunion with those who have died before us

Now compare what I just said to 1 Cor 15:51-52: Paul says:

"Behold I show you a mystery We shall not ALL sleep (spirits gone on) but we shall ALL be changed. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible and we shall be changed."


Again, I'll say Lula the dead IN Christ and we who are alive are going to be the first resurrection. All together at once. Where is the mention here of unbelievers? They are part of the second resurrection like I showed you at the end of Revelation.
on Sep 09, 2007
Lula posts:
Upon our death, our soul is immediately judged by Christ, our Particular Judgement. If we are found righteous, our soul goes to Heaven


KFC POSTS: I agree with this. First there is death then judgment. Not the great white throne judgement tho. That's at the very end and only for unbelievers.


Believers and unbelievers go through the Great White Throne Judgment (what I call the General, Final or Last Judgment). Don't imagine for a minute that it does not concern believers, for it does. All mankind will be summoned to Christ on His Judgment-Seat and everybody will witness it with their bodily eyes.

When Christ in His chariot of fire has reached Mount Olivet, He will pause in the air at such a height that He can be clearly seen by everyone, until the angels have prepared the throne of Judgment and the Books are opened. Daniel 7:9-10 describes this as does St.Matt. 25:31 and St.John 20:11 tells us that besides all men, even heaven and earth won't be able to bear to meet the eye of the Judge's stern countenance.

Christ won't sit in Judgment alone. The 12 Apostles will be with Him judging the 12 tribes of Israel. St.Matt. 19:28.

The Church Fathers write that even the angels will be filled with apprehension and fear. St.John writes here that blessed saints are struck with awe and trembling. Remember St.John was so awestruck that he fell at His feet as dead and our Lord had come then to console him not judge St.John! Even the saints are going to be terrified when they are called upon to give Him an account of their whole life...St.Paul says this is so.

When the Judge is seated upon the Throne of His Majesty, ALL who have assembled in the valley of Josaphat, angels and devils, the redeemed and the lost, will all have to adore Christ, as St. Paul says, "We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: As I live says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Rom. 14:10-11.

Thousands of millions of angels, together with the blessed, in visible form will prostrate themselves and the evil spirits with their inhappy victims, and all the damned will be forced against their will, to adore Christ and acknowledge Him as their God and Judge. The principle reason why Christ's appearance on the day of Final Judgment will be so terrible is becasue He has been most grieviously outraged by the mortal sins of men. theologians assert that every mortal sin is in itself an infinitely evil.

No one knows how the outpouring of the wrath of God will be upon sinners. Psalms 89:11. Through His prophet Ezekiel the Judge Himself says, "Now, thou son of man, is an end come upon thee, and I will send My wrath upon thee, and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and I will set all thy abominations against thee, and My eye shall not spare thee, and I will show thee no pity." 7:3-4.

When all of those whom Christ has chosen to share with Him His office of Judge take their seats, His Apostles being the first ones, the Final Judgment will begin.

From what St.Paul says no person, not even the saints will be exempted from this ordeal. "We shall all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ." Rom. 14:10.

This standing before the Judgment-seat will fill everyone with fear even the just to a certain degree. Even thought the just may not be conscious of any sin, they won't be without apprehension. St.Paul says this speaking of himself, "I am not conscious to myself of anything, yet I am not hereby justified, but He that judges me is the Lord." 1Cor. 4:4. Isn't St.Paul saying, my conscious doesn't reproach me, but this does not prove to me to be one of the just. I must wait and see what sentence the Eternal Judge will pass on me?

Everyone shall be rewarded according to his works. Those who have done good will go with Christ to their eternal reward and those who have done evil shall go into the abyss of eternal torment and anguish.
on Sep 09, 2007
From what St.Paul says no person, not even the saints will be exempted from this ordeal. "We shall all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ." Rom. 14:10.


you are talking something totally diff here. This is the BEMA seat of Christ. Here what you just quoted is for believers only. This is talking about believers judging other believers. Something totally diff than what we are talking about here in Revelation.

Believers are NOT judges of other believers. We will be judged by God. The whole chapter 14 of Romans is on this subject matter. Totally diff than the last judgment so you're talking apples/oranges here Lula.

Believers have already passed from death to life when they accepted Christ on this earth. So in effect they have escaped the judgment to come. What they haven't escaped tho is the bema seat of Christ where their works will be judged. 1 Cor 3:10-15 is the go to chapter on this. Also 2 Cor 5:10 says:

"For WE must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done whether it be good or bad."

But this is talking about rewards not eternal life. This also has to do with the believers, not the unbelievers. The bema (judgment seat) was well known to the Corinthians (Acts 18:12). Believers will be judged in a review of their works for the purpose of rewards only. Unbelievers will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment which is different and will be judged eternally by their works and will be found wanting. Their works cannot get them into heaven. Only the work of Christ gets us into heaven. It's not what WE do, but all what HE HAS DONE.

on Sep 09, 2007
Everyone shall be rewarded according to his works. Those who have done good will go with Christ to their eternal reward and those who have done evil shall go into the abyss of eternal torment and anguish.


Our going to heaven has nothing do do with us doing good or bad as you have stated. There will be some "good" people who will not go to heaven. People we esteem to be "good" that is. It's not about goodness Lula, it's about "belief."

Those who believe in God will go to heaven. Those who don't won't.

What you are speaking of Lula is legalism. Here's a devo I got today that helps put it into perspective.

The key to living a victorious Christian life is to discover who you are in Christ. Many Christians have never discovered this. They remind me of the man who had an identity problem and an energy crisis at the same time. He didn’t know who he was and he was too tired to find out. God doesn’t work from the outside in. He works from the inside out. God doesn’t modify our behavior in order to change us. He changes us in order to modify our behavior. You’re never going to purify the water by painting the pump. That’s legalism and that’s a dead end to discovering who you are in Christ.

"There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ JEsus. Romans 8:1.





on Sep 09, 2007
Lula posts:

Upon our death, our soul is immediately judged by Christ, our Particular Judgement. If we are found righteous, our soul goes to Heaven and this is known as the "first resurrection". Apoc. 20:4-6 speaks of the souls in Heaven who have died fighting the good fight of faith and some have even been beheaded for it. They are reigning with Christ in Heaven.


KKC POSTS:
I don't [agree] with this. How can you say this in light of 1 Thess 4:16-17? The resurrection DOES NOT happen until Christ returns. Until then we are spirits awaiting the resurrection.


I say this because the timing of 1Thess. 4:16-17 event occurs just after the general resurrection of the living and the dead at the Second Coming of our Lord in Judgment. This is a completely different event from the "first resurrection" of Apoc. 20:4-6.

KFC,

Here you say, "The resurrection DOES NOT happen until Christ returns. Until then we are spirits awaiting the resurrection."

Yes, quite true. However, we must distinguish the resurrection that happens at Christ's return is the general resurrection of the living and the dead. This is quite different from the "first resurrection" of Apoc.20:4-6.

Then you say, "Until then we are spirits awaiting the resurrection." Yes, KFC and where are these spirit souls awaiting this general resurrection? They are in Heaven right? When souls go to Heaven (is the "first resurrection") and these spirit souls are His saints reigning with Christ awaiting the general resurrection of the living and the dead at the Second Coming of our Lord in Judgment.

There are two resurrections: the "first resurrection" (only our soul judged in Particular Judgment and in Heaven) and the general resurrection (our soul joined with body just before the Final Judment.)

on Sep 09, 2007
KFC POSTS:
Believers have already passed from death to life when they accepted Christ on this earth.


This is sort of what I was describing as "the first resurrection" in terms of baptismal regeneration. From reply # 38

These souls are said to "live" in Heaven, and this coincides with the Gospel teaching of "life" in the spiritual sense of Baptism which regenerates us and gives us "new life". The souls of Apoc. 20:4 "live" because they experienced the first resurrection of 20:5b while they were alive on earth. The first resurrection refers to the resurrection of the human soul out of its spiritual death inherited from Adam. In this sense, the "first resurrection" occurs at Baptism.

Being "born" into new life is synomous with "the first resurrection". This truth is found in Eph. 2:1, 5-6; 5:14; Rom. 11:15; Jm. 5:15; Col. 3:1; 2: 12-13.




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