Pretty awesome!

Thanks T

I'm really enjoying this series as well. Next week it'll be "Behold your son, behold your mother."

Thanks KFC. I liked this. Our pastor gives good sermons too.

KFC POSTS: This second utterance on the cross was "Verily I say to you, Today shall you be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43
We looked at the two criminals that were on either side of him...... Once again we see two men, two reactions, two decisions and two destinies.


Thank you, KFC for this good lesson on St.Luke 23:43. In addition to that here is something that St. Ambrose wrote. The episode of the 2 thieves invites us to admire the designs of Divine Providence. Both thieves are in the same position--in the presence of the Eternal High Priest as He offers Himself in sacrifice for them and all mankind. One of them hardens his heart, despairs and blasphemes while the other repents, corresponds with grace and was thereby saved. He left the cross for Paradise. Here, St.Ambrose comments, “The Lord always grants more than one asks: the thief only asked Him to remember him, but the Lord says to him, “Amen, I say to thee, this day, thou shalt be with Me in paradise.”

Here is the episode as recorded by St.Luke 23:39-43, “And one of the robbers who was crucified, blasphemed Him, saying, “If thou be Christ, save Thyself and us!” But the other answering, rebuked him saying, “Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds; but this Man hath done no evil.” And he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when Thou shalt come into thy kingdom!” And Jesus said to him, “Amen, I say to thee, this day, thou shalt be with Me in paradise.”

The conversion of the penitent thief was a miracle of grace won by the merits of Christ. When the thief saw the patience and gentleness in which Jesus suffered and how He repaid injuries with love, and when he heard Him address God as His Father, he opened his heart to grace and believed that Jesus was the Messias and the Son of God. With this “faith” there was awakened in "hope" and confidence in the power of the Redeemer to pardon him. He had committed great crimes and now, at the point of dying, he hoped to receive pardon. Love for Jesus also entered his heart and impelled him to do what he could to protect Him from the insults of the other thief whom he upbraided for his blasphemies. From his "love" of Jesus proceeded a deep contrition which he made known by a sincere confession of his great guilt, whereby he had deserved the punishment of death. He accepted his punishment and suffered willingly in satisfaction of his sins. He didn’t ask to be delivered from temporal punishment, but acknowledged that his sufferings were no more than his due. His conversion therefore was very real and perfect, and Our Lord remitted all his sins and promised him immediate possession of Paradise.

Thinking on this as a Catholic, (and you may disagree), while we make our way through life, we all sin, but we can all repent also. God is always waiting with open arms, ready to forgive us. Therefore, no one should despair and have strong hope in God’s mercy. But no one may presume that he will be saved, for none of us can be absolutely certain of our final perseverance. This relative uncertainty is a spur God gives to us to be vigilant; this vigilance in turn helps us progress in the work of our sanctification as Christians.



KFC POSTS: This is what "Faith Alone" is all about. This criminal was saved by Faith. He didn't get down and do anything. He didn't get baptized first. He didn't perform more good deeds that would outweigh the bad ones. This criminal recogized, all of a sudden, that this man who hung beside him was God himself. By his statement we can easily recognize his need. He needed Jesus. He recognized Jesus as King. Only a King would have a kingdom.


And this is the point on which I must disagree when you say this is what ‘Faith Alone” is all about. The “Faith Alone” precept is one of Martin Luther’s teachings and you are repeating Protestant oral tradition when you say that the penitent thief was saved by "Faith Alone.” Your interpretion of St.Luke 23:39-43 uses the penitent thief’s sudden recognition of Jesus to deny everything from baptism, to repentance, to works, to holiness as necessary to be saved and enter into Heaven.

Even if granted that the penitent thief presents one instance of salvation by faith without works, the exception does not make the rule. I would also say that it is the thief, not Jesus, who initiates the conversation. Is that not works of sort? Just as God blessed Cornelius in Acts 10 for his fear and devotion, so Jesus blesses the thief. In any event, there is no warrant to impose “Faith Alone” theology in this unusual incident. It seems to me that the thief already had faith in God as demonstrated by his ‘fear of God’ that he expressed to the other thief. He now had the choice of putting that faith into action by reaching out to Jesus in perfect contrition, however, limited he was in doing so. Had he not reached out and accepted grace which was available to both thieves, he would have been condemned to hell just as the other thief was.

This is Catholic dogma on the matter of Faith. To Faith must be added: fear of Divine justice, hope in the mercy of God, love of God, hate of sin, cleansing of Baptism. The penitent thief possessed all these except Baptism which was not formally required until after Pentecost. Catholic theology also allows exceptions to its requirements for Baptism to be saved. It makes exceptions for those who cannot possibly be administered the sacrament before death, e.g. Baptism of Desire.

well we would have to disagree (you're right) on this particular item. This is a Catholic teaching, not a biblical one.

The vigilance is true, to be watchful for his return and to be found working when he returns but it's not to be vigilant as far as our salvation. We don't choose him, he chooses us. I believe we CAN most certainly know. I absolutely know that I have a place reserved in heaven for me. Jesus even said so. Remember? I go and prepare a place for you....? There's much I could give you biblically speaking. Here's a sampling.

From John in 1 John 5:13...."These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that YOU MAY KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God."

the word "know" is "oida" and means ....totally sure; no doubt.

also John 20:21...."But these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God; and that believing (not working) you might have life through his name."

Jesus said himself...."Verily verily I say to you, He that hears my word and believes on Him that sent me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life." John 20:31

"That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:15-16





First no it's not a work. It's a recognition. Jesus is very clear. It's not works that save. It's belief. It's all about belief. Read above John 3:15-6.

And if it's there, it's there for a good reason. Otherwise Christ would be misleading us. This was a clear message that it's all about belief.

"For by grace are you saved thru faith and NOT of yourselves; it is the gift of God. NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9

"But as many as received him (belief) to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name. Which were born NOT of blood NOR of the will of the flesh NOR of the will of man BUT OF GOD". John 1:12-13

[quote]for none of us can be absolutely certain of our final perseverance. This relative uncertainty is a spur God gives to us to be vigilant; this vigilance in turn helps us progress in the work of our sanctification as Christians.


KFC POSTS REPLY: well we would have to disagree (you're right) on this particular item. This is a Catholic teaching, not a biblical one.
The vigilance is true, to be watchful for his return and to be found working when he returns but it's not to be vigilant as far as our salvation...


People say they believe in God and do not living according to God’s will (the 10 Commandments). This is called sin and sin is getting “off track” of the road to salvation. Vigilantly persevering to avoid sin is what helps us progress in cooperation with God toward our sanctification. While we live we are in the process of growth as persons. The key is to keep vigilant and to keep growing spiritually as St.Paul speaks of “maturing in Christ”. This is a lifetime job. God wants all of us to be saved and we were created for this supernatural destiny. Sin gets us off track and pointed in the other direction. With the supernatural gifts of faith, hope and love, with humility, acknowledgment of our sins and repentance, God’s grace will flow and His love and mercy will get us back on track. It takes our cooperation for we have free will. We can say we have faith and believe, but if we don’t love God and our neighbors and obey His commands (all of these are “works”), we condemn ourselves to hell. One thief cooperated with grace, the other one didn’t. This is the lesson of the two criminals hanging on each side of Christ.

We humbly ask, “Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; save me in thy mercy.” Psalm 30 (31):17.

So we most certainly must be vigilant in our perseverance as far as our salvation is concerned. That is exactly what St.Paul was teaching in 1Cor.10:12. If the Fundamentalist would ask St. Paul, ‘Are you saved?” He would answer, “I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling.” To this I would add, with hopeful confidence---not with a false assurance.

All Catholic dogma on the doctrine of Faith as stated above is biblical. It’s all there. For true faith necessary to salvation, see St.Mark 16:16; Acts 2:47;4:12 and Hebrews 11:6. On faith without good works is dead, St.James 2:14,17, 20. Faith alone does not justify, verse 24. Faith working by charity, Gal. 5:6. Faith does not imply an absolute assurance of our being in grace; much less our eternal salvation, Rom.11:20-22; 1Cor.9:27; 10:12; Phil.2:12; and The Apoc. 3:11.

Faith or belief in God is of primary importance, however, it is only one condition or only part of having everlasting life. We are in complete agreement that we must believe in the Triune God and these passages that you quote from St.John point out our need to believe (have Faith) in Christ, our Redeemer. No argument there. However, they do not prove that “Faith Alone”, totally separate from hope, love of God and acts of charity (love, including forgiveness) (“works”), determines one’s ultimate salvation.

The Bible teaches that both Faith and good works are necessary for salvation. St.James 2:17, “So faith also, if it not have works, is dead in itself.”
St.James 22-26, “Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? ....24, “Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?” And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works....., 26, “For even as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

Luther knew that the Epistle of St.James was the end of his doctrine, so he rejected it calling it an “epistle of straw”, but over time Protestants have had to accept St.James because it remained part of the inspired canon in the Bible.
1Cor.13:1-3, “If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels and have not charity,....and if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”

So, we see that it’s not “Faith Alone” or works alone that save. It’s both that must be present. Here it’s important to distinguish “works” as acts of love of God and of our fellow man. Good works prompted by motives aren’t what I’m talking about and cannot save a man. Of this, St.Paul says, “If I should give all my goods to feed the poor, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.” 1Cor.13:3. It’s good works inspired by faith in Christ and love for Christ that are necessary. Indeed, the “Son of man will come in glory of His Father...and then will render to every man according to his works.” St.Matt.16:27.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS: Your interpretation of St.Luke 23:39-43 uses the penitent thief’s sudden recognition of Jesus to deny everything from baptism, to repentance, to works, to holiness as necessary to be saved and enter into Heaven.
Even if granted that the penitent thief presents one instance of salvation by faith without works, the exception does not make the rule. I would also say that it is the thief, not Jesus, who initiates the conversation. Is that not works of sort?

KFC POSTS REPLY: First no it's not a work. It's a recognition. Jesus is very clear. It's not works that save. It's belief. It's all about belief. Read above John 3:1J5-6.
And if it's there, it's there for a good reason. Otherwise Christ would be misleading us. This was a clear message that it's all about belief.


The penitent thief exhibits faith, hope and love, admission of guilt of sin and repentance. He believes in Christ that He is God, he exhibits love for Him and acknowledges his hope of being with Him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

KFC POSTS: Jesus is very clear. It's not works that save. It's belief. Read above John 3:1J5-6.


In St.John 3:15-16, Jesus teaches that whoever believes in Him will not perish and have everlasting life. But before He says this, it’s important to read what He teaches before this in v.5. Jesus lays out the conditions that must accompany belief. He said in answer to Nicodemus, “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” Here, Jesus set the condition of Baptism by water and the HS. In order to get the fullness of the meaning of Scripture, it’s important not to take one verse and isolate it from all the others especially those in the same chapter.
And in chapter 14, v.15, St.John tells us that Jesus said, “if you love me, keep my commandments.”

So we see again, that it isn’t belief or Faith alone. Jesus said in St.Matt. 7:21, “Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------


KFC POSTS: "For by grace are you saved thru faith and NOT of yourselves; it is the gift of God. NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9


KFC, don’t stop with verse 9. Verse 10 follows with this, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared, that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2: 8-10 according to Catholic interpretation means that salvation is a work of God, a gift of God that originates in His mercy. It acts in man by means of faith, that is by man’s acceptance of the salvation offered to him in Christ. But even faith, St.Paul teaches is a divine gift and man cannot merit faith by his own efforts alone. On the basis of this passage of Ephesians and other passages, the Church teaches, “By faith man freely commits his entire self to God, before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior help of the HS, who moves the heart and converts it to God , who opens the eyes of the mind, and makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.”
When St.Paul says that faith does not come from works, v.9, he is referring to things man can do on his own without the help of grace. If faith did come from works, then man would have something to boast to God about, something which would bring salvation without the dependence on Christ---which would be inadmissible, because then our Lord’s death would make no sense, nor would even the Incarnation of the Word, whom ‘God has made our wisdom, our righteousness, and sanctification and redemption, therefore, as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boasts of the Lord.” 1Cor. 1:30-31 and see Jas. 2:14; Rom.3:20-31; 9:31.

The Christian has become a new creation (born again) when he was inserted into Christ at Baptism. 2Cor.5:17. once justified by Baptism, he should live in a manner consistent with his faith , that is, with his new life. The life of grace in fact moves him to do those good works which God wishes to see performed (He had already laid down that this should be so) and which perfect the work of salvation. Deeds, works, prove the genuiness of faith: “faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” St.James 2:17. Without these, works---the practice of the theological and moral virtues---not only would faith be dead; our love for God and neighbor would be false.

Having said that, it is also true that to bring about this renewal in man God counts on man’s readiness to respond to grace and on his carrying out “good works”.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

KFC POSTS: "But as many as received him (belief) to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name. Which were born NOT of blood NOR of the will of the flesh NOR of the will of man BUT OF GOD". John 1:12-13


When understood properly, St.John 1:12-13 confirms that it is not “Faith Alone” by which we are saved.

Douay Rheims, v.12-13, “But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Catholic interpretation of V.12 is that receiving the Word (Jesus Incarnate) means accepting Him through faith, for it is through faith that Christ dwells in our hearts. (Eph.3:17). This means believing in His Holy name, means believing in His person, in Jesus as Christ, and as the Son of God. Believing in Christ is believing His humanity and His divinity.

“He gave his power” is the same as saying “he gave them a free gift”--sanctifying grace--”becasue it is not in our power to make ourselves sons of God”. This gift is extended through Baptism to everyone; “to them that believe” means the only condition is that we have faith. Acts.10:45; Gal.3:28.
“to be made the sons of God” means in order that the sons of men, (sons of Adam) might become sons of God, (Jesus is the Son of God by nature) we are by grace. What is referred to here is birth to supernatural life (which occurs with the sacrament of Baptism).

Christ’s union with man is power and the source of power as St.John states in his prologue. This means that man is transformed inwardly by this power as the source of new life that does not disappear and pass away, but lasts to eternal life.” St.John 4:14.
In Verse 13, the birth spoken of here is a real, spiritual type of generation which is effected in Baptism 3:6.

KFC, you might find it interesting that the Greek manuscripts have instead of the plural adopted here, referring to the supernatural birth of men, some early translations read it in the singular, “who was born, not of blood.....but of God”, in which case the text would refer to the eternal generation of the Word and to Jesus’ generation through the Holy Spirit in the pure womb of the Virgin Mary. Your translation and my DR shows it in the plural which seems to be the more common and the one that prevailed from the 4th century forward. Besides this, we frequently find in St.John’s writings, reference to believers as being born of God. 3:3-6; 1John2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1,4,18.
The contrast between man’s natural birth (by blood and the will of man) and his supernatural birth which comes from God shows that those who believe in Christ Jesus are made children of God not only by their creation but above all by the free gift of faith and grace.

So we most certainly must be vigilant in our perseverance as far as our salvation is concerned. That is exactly what St.Paul was teaching in 1Cor.10:12. If the Fundamentalist would ask St. Paul, ‘Are you saved?” He would answer, “I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling.” To this I would add, with hopeful confidence---not with a false assurance.

hahahah Lula you better re read what you just quoted....a word from God perhaps? Are ya listening? It's not what you quoted here. You mean to say....Phil 2:12?

No, this is most definitely a false teaching. Notice Paul said he was working OUT his salvation. He wasn't working FOR his salvation. Big diff. We can only work OUT what God has worked IN. Notice Phil 1:6 while you're there. "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus."

It's God who works thru us. We are not working for God. We think we are but in all reality HE's working thru us. Remember, Jesus said "I am the vine, you are the branches." The branches don't produce fruit. They bear them. They hold them up. A branch can bear lots of fruit if it's well connected to the lifesource...the tree. That's us. We are the branches. Depending on how well we are connected is how we'll bear fruit (works).

I stand by Faith alone because that's what scripture clearly teaches...so I won't get into tit for tat here with ya Lula.

KFC, don’t stop with verse 9. Verse 10 follows with this, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared, that we should walk in them.”

I don't have a problem with works Lula. I'm just saying we are not saved by works. It's faith alone. Works are EVIDENCE of who we belong to. Works and fruit are evidence that we are rightly connected. Our works don't save us. We see this all thru scripture. Many times it was said, that God didn't want our sacrifices, he wanted our obedience. He wanted our hearts.

Salvation comes first by faith. Then come works and these works always point and give glory to the one who saved us. If that theif could, he would have gone down to start his ministry as a new believer in Christ.

In Corinthians we see that there's a section in Chap 3 where believers enter heaven as if singed by fire. Their works did not pass muster. Their works tried by fire were found wanting. ...it says in v15....."If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Some believer's works are no good. But they were saved by faith and thus will enter the Kingdom of God, but sadly they will have nothing to offer the king. Basically they will come empty handed.

No Lula, the scriptures are clear that we are not SAVED by works but works are a very important facet of a Believer's life after salvation. And it starts with baptism (a work). Just like Jesus did so we should do as well.

I'm laughing too. I had notes and quotes all over my desk as I was trying to put this comment together. Sometimes I take time to re-read and double check, but not this time....and you caught it, thanks, KFC.

I really like some of your one line truisms...
We can only work OUT what God has worked IN.
It's God who works thru us.
Salvation comes first by faith.
Then come works and these works always point and give glory to the one who saved us.
Just like Jesus did so we should do as well.

To "It's God who works thru us. I would add that perseverance in faith and charity is a gift from God.

To "Then com works and these works always point and give glory to the one who saved us." I would add unless we are unfaithful or reject His grace, God will bring the good work to perfection, just as He began it.



I don't have a problem with faith, KFC. I'm just saying we are not saved by "Faith ALone". It's faith, hope and acts (works) of charity.

Our faith comes from God. That is not a work. Our Hope is in Christ. He is called the "Blessed Hope." Works are not a salvation matter. Works are an obedience matter. Our works show our gratefulness to God who has saved us.

Let me put it another way.

We are saved by faith alone.......but our faith is never alone.

Something I saw today...

You can give without love...but you can't love without giving.

  

I like that T......

it's very true. Love is an action word. It's a verb. Mother Teresa used to say...."Don't just stand there, love with your hands."

KFC POSTS: We are saved by faith alone.......but our faith is never alone.

We've been describing Faith, hope and love in kind of vague ways. Getting down to the nitty-gritty of it all we could ask the question:
If you died today, would go to Heaven and if so, why?

My answer is: that would depend on the condition or state of my soul. If I'm in a state of grace when I die, I will go to heaven, guaranteed. But if I die in the state of mortal or dealy sin (and those sins have been enumerated in Scripture) willful and unrepentant rebellion against God--I will go to hell, guaranteed.

Why, would I go to heaven if I died in the state of grace which is something God does for me, not something I do for Him. St. Paul makes this clear. Read Eph. 2:4-10. We see how the transformation from sin to grace is likened to being raised from the dead. We once were dead in our sins, but now we are alive in Christ through His free gift of grace. And the reverse process is also possible and something we can't close our consicience to. One who is alive in Christ can throw away that gift and kill his soul with through mortal sin. We are all sinners, in need of His grace. And He freely extends that grace to all, but we are free to accept or reject it; free to remain in it or throw it away and turn our backs to it.

If I accept His grace, embrace the virtues of faith, hope and charity, and live according to it, I will be saved. If I willfully reject it, I'll go to my just rewards and spend eternity in hell, not becasue God sends me there, but becasue I chose it myself by my freewill refusal. St.Paul spoke about being in the state of grace in Romans 11:22.

Yes. Absolutely. Because I have put my faith and trust in Christ who is both LORD and SAVIOR of my life. That's it.



see Lula, from a biblical standpoint this is not true. Jesus said, "all that the father has given me, nothing can snatch them away from me."

Paul said, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our lord." Rom 8:38

He also said in Col 1 that we are reconciled to him. Once we were enemies and alienated yet he now has reconciled with us. Once you reconcile, it's a done deal.

The Gk word here for reconciled is “apokatallass” { ap-ok-at-al-las’-so} and is seen only in one other place, Eph 2:16. It means 1) to reconcile completely 2) to reconcile back again 3) bring back a former state of harmony. This is a picture of a total restoration.

It's like this Lula. Once God adopted us into his family (and that's the term for us Gentiles-adoption) we are in his family. That doesn't mean we don't screw up and get dirty with sin. We are still his child and he is still our father. He does not disown us. Eternal Security is what it's all about. We can be secure that he has a good hold of us.

On the other hand if we are living in habitual sin, we need to examine ourselves to see if we are indeed in the family to begin with. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Adam and Eve were chosen by God to be in Paradise. They messed up, but he didn't stop being their father. He provided for them even in his discipline to them. There is always consequences for our sin....always, but we never lose our salvation. Once saved, always saved.



no, "living according to it" is EVIDENCE that you have already been saved. He saves us first. Then the fruit happens. He grafts us as a branch onto the Abrahamic tree which has the life giving nutrients we need. Once we are securely abiding in him (JOHN 15) we will bear much fruit, (Gal 5:22).




This is absoultely true....and this is the kicker. Rom 3

"There is NONE that understands; there is NONE that seeks after God."
"For ALL have sinned and come SHORT of the glory of God;......

the bible is not a book of man searching after God. It's all about a book of God seeking out Man. It's the total opposite of what "religion" teaches.