The trouble is, when you experts say dingy things like Muslims believing that the world rides on the back of a turtle or that Shakespeare is less textually reliable than the NT, you believe them. When it is proved false, you just ignore it. If you rely on such "experts", how can anyone rely on you?

Better to find your own path, and toss out the self-serving commentaries. You won't be able to blame them later.

A thousand times over, the death knell of the Bible has been sounded, the funeral procession formed, the inscription cut on the tombstone, and committal read. But somehow the corpse never stays put.

No other book has been so chopped, knived, sifted, scruntinized and vilified. What book on philosophy or religion or psychology or belles lettres of classical or modern times has been subject to such a mass attack as the Bible? with such venom and skepticism? with such thoroughness and erudition? upon every chapter, line and tenet?

Bernard Ramm


while I cannot "prove" the Bible is the Word of God I can show without a doubt that it is a very unique book (different from all others and having no like or equal) This book has drawn more attention than any other and deserves at least a thorough investigation at the least.

No argument there. Great book, yes. Truths in it, yes. Philosophically or religiously inerrant? Not if men were responsible for it. One of the great truths of the Bible is that mankind doesn't do anything that is inerrant.

Boy, you're quick Baker....I hardly have time to breathe here. I think it's all the dirt that you're pushing over my head.....it's a joke ok?

Now you're going back months ago to a sermon that McArthur preached about the Muslims with the world on the back of.....it was elephants, not turtles. I was hoping to ask him why he used that thought/quote or whatever it was in person, since I was hoping to see him in March in Orlando. I noticed in the whole sermon I sent you, and he covers quite a bit, that was the only thing you chose to pick on. Either it was an error, and he did not do his HW or it came from outside the Koran in the many other Muslim writings. I actually agree with you on this one. I don't think he should have said that without better clarification and I really like JM.

Better yet, why don't you go? You can listen in to him and Dr. R.C. Sproul who I think would really be your type of guy. He goes very deep and delves right into history....all kinds of history. He's a reformed preacher/teacher at a Seminary. To Check out Sproul....www.ligonier.org. I'm sure he'd answer all your questions.....and your head will spin, like mine does when I listen to Him via the radio.

Not if men were responsible for it.

men weren't.

well this differs from the Christian perspective.

I think this would be better stated that "this differs from THIS christian's perspective." Not every christian would be so quick to agree with you. That's the problem with most people's (and I include my own errors in this) lumping of christians together under the banner "christian." Take ten of them off the street and you'll get ten different sets of beliefs, even in the same sect.

men weren't.

Except they were. You've got bloody hands all over that book, and consequently, many of the plain and precious things that were there have been lost. Pity, really.

God did not "take" a rib from Adam. The Hebrew word for rib used here is "Tsal'ah". It means curve or arch, meaning God made the female with more curves than male. Many things in the Bible get all twisted around in the reader's mind when only reading the text in english. In many cases, the translators used words 180 degrees opposite of what was actually being said. Then there are the Hebrew idioms, figures of speech, transliterations instead of translations, but the truth can be sorted out if one has the patience.
Most people want an instant, microwavable, high speed internet answer, which leaves them lacking, so they merely brush themselves off, and go about their daily affairs, groping in the dark.

OB77

KFC,

(1) if, hypothetically, you heard God’s voice instructing you to go out around town killing hundreds of people - let’s say Buddhists and Hindus in your local region for worshipping “false gods and idols”, or maybe “for the failings of their great-great grandfathers” (Numbers 4.18), would you stop and think, “Hang on. This is just wrong.”? Or would you do it, after all, you are being asked to be an instrument of God, exercising God’s “mercy, kindness and goodness”, and will help eliminate those who don’t please God?


(2) Where does the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” fit in with the hundreds of Biblical verses in which God commands His followers to massacre masses of men, women and children?


(3) As God chooses who becomes Christian and who doesn’t, (or, in the OT, chooses who becomes “God’s people” and who doesn’t), then where does God’s “justice and mercy” come into it, considering that all non-Christians are effectively chosen by God to perish in hellfire and to experience eternal pain and suffering? This is more evil than Hitler, incidentally.


(4) Is fundamentalism a wise and mature point of view? Or, if KFC’s views are representative of hearty Christians today, is humanity still in its childhood? If the latter is the case, then fundamentalist attitudes will represent a distorted view of reality.



(Please remove blinkers before answering questions)

Many things in the Bible get all twisted around in the reader's mind when only reading the text in english. In many cases

Then there are the Hebrew idioms, figures of speech, transliterations instead of translations, but the truth can be sorted out if one has the patience.

some of this is true. I agree, and is the case whenever you take a word from one language and try to make it fit another. But I don't believe any of the true meaning has been lost in the transferring of one to another. As far as if it's a rib or a curve, I don't think that's the point....but interesting I'll have to check on that.

Most people want an instant, microwavable, high speed internet answer,

isn't this the truth for everything nowadays? I heard today that there's a guy who has put together a history book with just such a mind in mind so to speak. Just the most important facts that we need to know about history.....like Christopher Columbus' whole purpose and reason for discovering America in just a few sentences. And from what I understand the facts that he's putting on paper doesn't look like what's being taught in schools today.

I think this would be better stated that "this differs from THIS christian's perspective." Not every christian would be so quick to agree with you. That's the problem with most people's (and I include my own errors in this) lumping of christians together under the banner "christian." Take ten of them off the street and you'll get ten different sets of beliefs, even in the same sect.

well let me clarify then....Evangelical then ok? I can meet 10 Evangelical Christians that I don't know (happens all the time) from different religions and backgrounds and feel an instant connection with them immediately. And it would be safe to say, that these same Christians would believe in the complete inerrancy of the bible. Now do all Christians believe in the inerrancy of the bible? I'd have to say no. To be a Christian tho, you'd have to believe in the Essentials and as far as I'm aware, believing that the bible is directed by the HS without error is not one of them.

As far as you SC....you're a Mormon right? Well when I was a Mormon...many moons ago, they did not call themselves Christian. Neither did the JW's but now they do. I'm not sure why the change, do you? So you're off the hook, I wasn't including you in the complete inerrancy of the bible.

Reply By: AndyBaker

#1-I Don't usually answer hypothetical questions. Would you like a hypothetical answer? The easiest way I could answer that would be to say, I use the bible as my guide. The New Covenant is what's in play here, not the Old. Why would I take vengeance on someone who believes in a different god? They are not sinning against me. They are sinning against Him. He says we are not to take vengeance. He'll take care of it in the end. He also said the wheat and the tares are to grow together until the end. And it's his angels who do the reaping. So why would I go contrary to His word?

#2- There is a difference between murder and killing. The commandment to not murder is found in the 10 commandments. It smacks of personal revenge and is born out of hatred. War on the other hand is justified and carried over to the NT as well. God does sanction war but he doesn't sanction murder under any circumstances. To show you from the NT perspective.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordaineda of God.  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Rom 13:1-4

#3-Not one of us deserves eternity. We have all fallen short. We all sin against God. Not one is perfectly sinless. We all have some form of rebellion in us against God and we can't save ourselves . Instead of wiping us all out as we deserve God reaches down and breathes life into us. Paul said that we are all dead in our sins. What can a dead man do? We are in the land of the dead, not the living....as many believe. This is why Jesus said....."let the dead bury the dead." He was talking spiritually dead burying the physically dead. The other side of eternity is where the real life is. I am very grateful. And because I am grateful, I want others to hear what He has to say because only by hearing will they receive the message. And only by receiving the message can they too live forever. So I am a receipant of that grace and mercy he has to offer. I know it's real because I've experienced it and my life is forever changed because of what he's done for me.

#4-There's only two views from what I can see. The biblical worldview and the humanity worldview...some call it the secular or just plain worldview. I look at everything from a biblical worldview....surprise surprise!! I believe it's a battle between good and evil between God and Lucifer. I say Lucifer because that's the name this angel was given from the beginning.

Andy: I already know you know these answers so now I'll ask you...why ask them?

"The commandment to not murder is found in the 10 commandments."

And yet strangely that Bible you claim translates itself says "kill". Was there something wrong with the guy who was translating that day? IF so, could that *gasp* be a translation error?

No, wait, silly to ask. The Bible is inerrant, so if it says "kill" it must mean... um... murder.

...And when it says God repented of the 'evil' He was about to do, it doesn't mean 'evil', it means the 'harsh punishment'...

...And when it says that God hated Esau, it doesn't REALLY mean God hated him, it means God hated some esoteric something ABOUT him.

...and you wonder why people look at you like a hypocrite when you say that you don't pick and choose and claim that the Bible 'translates itself'...

everytime i read this stuff, it makes me wonder what i really do believe. i don't know everything about the bible. i still have lots of questions, many which were mentioned here. but sometimes we don't get to know the answer. man isn't all knowing. that's hard for me to accept. but this debate has been going on for thousands of years. what makes you think you all know what you;re talking about? some of the most genius people in history didn't know for sure.

BAKERSTREET.



The commandment is to do no murder. The Hebrew word for kill here is Ratsach. The description of what constitutes murder is found in the book of Numbers, chapter 35. Also found is the punishment for that crime, which was death.
One cannot murder another without killing them now, can one? Now, there is the case for manslaughter described as well, where two men are chopping wood and the axe flies off the handle striking the other as to kill him. Being it was not intentional, the one who accidentally killed his partner was to move three cities away. This was for two reasons: to insure the safety of the man, and to keep a hothead relative of the victim from wanting revenge and possibly committing murder himself.

Yes, God hated Esau. The reason is not given in the text, but since Esau was yet in the womb, he must have done something during Satan's rebellion in the world that then was....possibly selling his birthright there, as he did later while in the flesh.

Every word out of the mouth of God is true, yet not every word in the english came out of the mouth of God, and anyone who has taken the english back to the original Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic & Chaldean knows this all too well.
There are changes even in the english versions of the Bible to further muddy the waters.
Instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, seek the original meanings of the words, for the original texts were not tampered with.

Any great document could be corrupted when translated to another language, especially if a scribe was so minded, but should one discard the original based on the corrupted version before examining the original?

OB77

So Baker, you are making a decision because you don't understand? So you turn away from the Word of God because it doesn't make sense to you right? Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean others don't. For many, math or Science doesn't make sense. Sure we all have questions but for those doing the digging in His word we see something you don't. Like I said, only God can open eyes. I suggest you go to Him and ask. We can't know everything there is to know, but what He's given us. Other than that we have to go outside of scripture.

Here, just as we debated evolution, we both have the same evidence....but we are drawing two different conclusions. That's really what it's all coming down to.

Yes, God hated Esau. The reason is not given in the text, but since Esau was yet in the womb, he must have done something during Satan's rebellion in the world that then was....possibly selling his birthright there, as he did later while in the flesh.

here, I'd have to say you have to go out of scripture for this. God hated Esau, yes. But since we know that God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked and we know that God is a God of Love how can this be? We DO know that God hates sin. We saw the anger in Jesus in the temple remember? Was He mad at them, the people? Or was HE angry over the sin that they were so covered in? When he made terrible remarks at the Pharisees what was HE saying? He was saying that they were of their father the devil......the father of Sin.

God, a Holy God, cannot stand to have sin in His presence. Therefore when God said he hated Esau, it was not the person but the sin. God loves the sinners, but cannot tolerate the sin and therefore sinners will be judged in a righteous court. Those found cleansed (by the blood of the lamb) will pass thru the door. Those not, will be found naked and uncovered and will be banished. It's that simple. It's not a hard concept. We see a picture of this right in the Garden. God COVERED Adam and Eve. An animal was sacrificed to do so. The concept is sprinkled thru the whole of scripture as a picture of Christ being the one that will cover us in our nakedness before God.

Here's another couple of quotes I have.......

"Democracy is the outgrowth of the religious conviction of the sacredness of every human life. On the religious side, its highest embodiment is the Bible;on the political side, the Constitution."-- President Herbert Hoover, 1943 "The fundamental basis of this nation's laws was given to Moses on the Mount. … I don't think we emphasize that enough these days."-- President Harry S. Truman, Feb. 15, 1950

Andy: I already know you know these answers so now I'll ask you...why ask them?

because your answers are different to mine, KFC. I think it’s healthy to hear different points of view and to engage in a hearty discussion, especially about significant topics like God and religion.

#2 There is a difference between murder and killing

Yes. And the sixth commandment is “Thou shalt not kill” (King

1 Samuel 15.3 (KJV), for example, sees God commanding His people to “Kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey”.

I can see a contradiction. In the past KFC, when I’ve seen people describe their own interpretation of certain Biblical verses, you have said words to the effect of: “Read the verse – it’s there in plain text. You don’t have to deviate from the word to suit your own purposes”. We can’t help our own subjective leanings, KFC. And that’s okay. Fundamentalists are included in this.

#4-There's only two views from what I can see. The biblical worldview and the humanity worldview...some call it the secular or just plain worldview. … I believe it's a battle between good and evil between God and Lucifer”

This is exactly the kind of view that we would expect to hear from a very young soul – “good and bad”; “the Biblical view or not-the-Biblical view”. It’s like a little sphere. Any phase of Reality that exists outside this point of view, a young soul will either dismiss it as “the works of the devil”, or they will simply ignore it, like a blind-spot.

Typical blind-spots to the fundamentalist bubble are: (1) Eastern philosophy and Buddhist wisdom; (2) the majority of scientific endeavours; (3) any religion other than Christianity and any religious Holy Book other than the Bible; (4) the deeper dynamics of human psychology, (including the principle that people are not exclusively “good” or “bad”), (5) modern Biblical scholarship and criticism, (6) the larger dynamics of spiritual growth and evolution etc.

#1 Why would I take vengeance on someone who believes in a different god?

The same God that you believe in today commanded many of His followers to slaughter thousands of people, sometimes for worshipping “false gods and idols”, sometimes “for the failings of their great-great grandfathers”, and sometimes because they simply “didn’t please God”. I was just asking you to put yourself in their shoes, and to imagine a similar divine command or obligation today.

Overall, I believe that whoever picks up the Bible, whether it be a fundamentalist, a ‘liberalist’, an atheist, a Buddhist, or whoever, our interpretations will veer toward upholding views that we already hold in the first place.

It’s all subjective at the end of the day, and that’s obviously the way God wants it to be - otherwise things would be different. I think God is urging us to use our own minds, to apply our own wisdom, and to continue to grow and expand our views. He wouldn’t want His children to remain in nappies, for sure.