To: Iconoclast

I'm so entirely weary of christians who have not the remotest understanding of the most basic precepts of their faith that I'm thinking of writing a 'Christianity for Dummies' piece. If that sounds arrogant it's because it is arrogant - 22 years of continuous study and thought, reading, rereading, and re-rereading of the whole Bible over that period, along with patristic writers such as Augustine and Irenaeus, along with a compendium of gnostics and other 'heretics' ought to and will provide a foundation for such a piece.

My only concern is the length to which it might grow. But hey - I'm unemployed; I have nothing but time right now.

I don't have alot of time right now and haven't read all the responses here but there is another incident in scripture that comes to mind similar to 9-11. It's in Luke 13 where the "innocent" Galilaneans were killed by the hand of Pilate while they were in the temple giving their sacrifices. It said their blood was mingled with the sacrificial blood of the lambs. and also another incident with another tower that fell........Jesus said to them:

"Suppose you that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galileans because they suffered such things? I tell you, No, but except you reprent you shall all likewise perish. Or thos 18 upon whom the tower in Siloam fell and were killed, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem. I tell you no, except you repent you shall all likewise perish."

I remember this scripture popping up during 9-11. Basically I take this to mean that it doesn't matter how we die, whether it be old age or a sudden tragedy like this. Repentance is necessary to "live." Jesus was calling them all to repentance here. He never ever put alot of stock in our physical lives but iin the spiritual. It's the spiritual that gives life even if we die physically.

We as humans care and live for the flesh and He didn't want us to get caught up in all that. There's hope outside of this physcial world we live in and he wanted us to know this.

I'll be back later.

To: KFC

I'm constantly astounded by the level of Scriptural ignorance you're willing to display in public. Do you count on your readers being more ignorant than you are -or do you merely hope and assume that they are more ignorant than you are?

Seeing that you claim to be a teacher, you ought to know that the context of scripture is the most important clue as to its meaning. The thrust of the chapter as a whole has to do with hypocrisy - something you and Falwell both are profoundly intimate with. The teaching of the chapter is not that Jesus was concerned with the spiritual over the physical, as you claim in your folly, but that those who are as honest in their doubt as they are in their faith will enter the Kingdom of Heaven before those who have merely the appearance of righteousness.

The verses you and I both cited, when taken in their proper context, have nothing whatever to do with 'the flesh' and everything to do with the proper appreciation of the dependence of the believer upon God for vindication.

was not aware, personally, on the morning of 9/11 as I sat at my CAD work station, that God had issued as a public decree (as It invariably did through the mouths of Prophets and Judges) that those who worked in and around the WTC were either idolaters or enemies of Israel - and so were 'dedicated to destruction', that being the euphemistic phrase used in translations of the Bible for the wholesale eradiction of peoples and property

Did you NOT read what I wrote.....

I am not saying 9-11 was God's will. I don't think he works like that personally

And then I go to explain exactly why terrorism is murder and war is not...or at least I thought I did.

Terrorism is about sneaking and lying and murdering

Are you suggesting that those who died were more or less holy than anyone else in New York on that day? If you're suggesting they were 'chosen' to be killed because they were so meritorious that they were all martyred to teach us a lesson, let me remind you that, according to the Christian revelation, only Christ was innocent and therefore worthy to be sacrificed - and let me point out that, if that is your position, you have just annihilated the basis of your faith.

I am not suggesting ANYTHING about the people who died...I AM suggesting something about God. That being He can and does use what others mean for evil for good.

On the one hand you add to the revelation of Christ by insinuating that some are at least as worthy as Christ to serve as an atoning sacrifice; and on the other, you take from the revelation of Christ by insinuating that some are more worthy of punishment than others - which contravenes that dictum that all are guilty and have fallen short.

Just what sentence exactly did you take that from? You are reading into what I've written.

It's almost like you skimmed my comment, read into it what you wanted so you could go off on some tangent.

suppose KFC and Tova think that, on the morning of 9/11, God somehow made sure that only sinners were in the WTC.

HAHAHA. Yeah, God sent me an order to be there but I was feeling disobedient that day.

HAHAHA. Yeah, God sent me an order to be there but I was feeling disobedient that day

can you do that?

EOIC

Let me spell it out for you.....

13:1 Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. Evidently, some worshipers from Galilee were condemned by Rome, perhaps because they were zealots and were sought out and killed in the temple by Roman authorities while in the process of offering a sacrifice. Such a killing would have been the grossest sort of blasphemy. Incidents like this inflamed the Jews’ hatred of Rome and finally led to rebellion, and the destruction of Jerusalem in a.d. 70.

13:2 worse sinners. It was the belief of many that disaster and sudden death always signified divine displeasure over particular sins Those who suffered in uncommon ways were therefore assumed to be guilty of some more severe immorality. T

13:3 unless you repent. Jesus did not deny the connection between catastrophe and human evil, for all such afflictions ultimately stem from the curse of humanity’s fallenness. Furthermore, specific calamities may indeed be the fruit of certain iniquities. But Christ challenged the people’s notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent, for all were in danger of sudden destruction. No one is guaranteed time to prepare for death, so now is the time for repentance for all, you will all likewise perish. These words prophetically warned of the approaching judgment of Israel, which culminated in the catastrophic destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Thousands in Jerusalem were killed by the Romans.

13:4 Siloam. Evidently one of the towers guarding the pool of Siloam collapsed, perhaps while under construction, killing some people. Again, the question in the minds of people was regarding the connection between calamity and isin (“worse sinners”). Jesus responded by saying that such a calamity was not God’s way to single out an especially evil group for death, but as a means of warning to all sinners. Calamitous judgment was eventually coming to all if they did not repent.

We all have a date with death whether it be by tragedy or not. On that same day of 9-11 many more thousands died that day all over the world. Some alone, some in pairs and some in groups. What matters more than the deaths of all these people all over the world is...their relationship with their creator.....did they make ammends with him or not?

Augustine and Irenaeus, along with a compendium of gnostics and other 'heretics'

so you're putting Augustine and Irenaeus, in the same boat with the heretics and gnostics? Why bother? Why not just forego any mention of religion, scripture or faith if you hate it so? I'm thinking you doth protest way too much.

HAHAHA. Yeah, God sent me an order to be there but I was feeling disobedient that daycan you do that?

ya, I'm afraid I do it way too much......being disobedient that is.......

To: Tova7 and KFC

As I said, what's needed is a 'Christianity for Dummies'. As well as 'Argumentation 101'.

There are no innocents in the OT in the sense that you say there are - and your insistence that there are simply demonstrates that you don't understand the nature of the God you profess to believe in, or the events 'recorded' in that series of books.

KFC - the constant reiteration of your original premise, in all its idiot glory, is not the same as responding to an argument.

Who are the heathen here (in the context of your 'argument')? Americans? The reeking Saudi swine that flew the planes into the WTC? The mad dogs of Israel, whom you rightly point out have been chastised too many times to count by a God made crazy by the stiff-neckedness of 'His' people? And who is the Son? Israel? Jesus? Dubya?

I don't know why I bother EOIC...I feel like I'm feeding a monster here but here goes......I'll just go and bang my head against the wall when I'm done. PSALM 2

V1-3: These nations are in rebellion against God at the end of the age. The nations raging is plural goyim referring to Gentile nations. Israel is surrounded by Muslim nations (as predicted they would be) so the general context I believe are those nations but is applicable to any that plot against God, his chosen and his chosen city...Zion.

The Hebrew word translated “rage” gives the idea of insurrection. It speaks of conspiring or plotting. The idea is that all nations are plotting and conspiring against God and His plan for the earth. In the middle of all this they “set themselves” in battle against God. They are assuming a deliberately hostile position. They then “take counsel.” Here we picture them literally seating themselves close together as in a conclave. They are plotting together, a coup and preparing a mutiny and are firmly setting themselves up for this action

This rebellion is directed against the righteous Lord of the universe and His “Anointed” (the Lord Jesus). Remember Paul? He didn't realize when he was persecuting the Christians, he was persecuting Jesus. Same idea here.

The reason and purpose behind their actions is made known in v3. The nations want no restraints, no absolutes, no standards and of course no accountability. They want to say, “I’m the judge in my court. I’m the Captain of my ship. I’m the master of my fate.” This is none other than the deification of man coming of age. I'm sure you understand all about this.

This prideful humanism is like the like the pottery saying to the Potter who lovingly crafted it “Get lost!! Take a hike!! I don’t need you anymore. Get out of my life.” How insane is that? Hasn't that been our "tude" towards God these last 40 years in this country? Man thinks he can successfully rebel against his creator. Aren't you proof of this yourself EOIC?

We can see in v3 the imagery of a restless animal that breaks off its cords for the freedom they believe they do not have. Men do not want the Lord nor His Son to rule over them. This is a direct attack on Divine Sovereignty. We are nearing every day the battle of Armageddon and we will see this continue right up until that day.

The only mystery here lies in your ability to imagine that the Psalm you cite has any relevance to 'current events', when in fact it relates to a world now dead and gone for several thousand years

oh really? So all those Messianic Psalms like this Psalm are really have nothing to do with Christ? Then what do you do here?

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luke 24:44.

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.Luke 24:27.

And yes, I do like to teach, so I'd like to give you the number one lesson I teach all my students.....the whole OT is all about Christ. It doesn't start in the book of Matthew.

There are no innocents in the OT in the sense that you say there are - and your insistence that there are simply demonstrates that you don't understand the nature of the God you profess to believe in, or the events 'recorded' in that series of books.

Where did we say, there were innocents anywhere? I've never said that either in the OT or in the NT.

I mean really, KFC, if God is "just" why wouldnt he strike down those abortionists, pagans, and gays instead of arranging for (or allowing) the deaths of so many people innocent of those charges?

I think this is a great question. I go to Psalm 73 on this one. I'm using this Psalm to study suffering.

Many make conclusions like this:

1. If God is good, he will bless the righteous and punish the wicked
2. God has blessed the wicked while the righteous have suffered.
3. Therefore, God is not good.

Satan is behind this and has used it before on Job 1:9-11. We want our service to God to result in everything just right. But here we base this on a misunderstanding of God. He has something much greater in store for us. While we focus on good results, God focuses on the process of making us good. It’s not about our desires being met but his intent to free us from bondage to those desires. Our false conclusions lead us to run from God instead of toward him. He is after better eternal things for us than we see for ourselves.

If our conclusions are not biblical, there is little hope that we will respond biblically to the situations in which God has placed us.. We need to learn biblically about our life by using it instead of our life experiences to make sense out of it. We tend to use our experiences to dictate what we believe about God, His work and His word. That's where all the trouble starts when we measure everything by our experiences instead of relying on the promises of God.

To: KFC

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luke 24:44.

What do I do with such words? Regard them as those of a man deluded by the sincere belief that he was the Messiah. Not the first such man, and not the last either. You forget, I no longer share your beliefs and am under no obligation to read into the words of the man Jesus a justification and substantiation of the prejudices I used to bring to the scriptures. I once took an online test (I forget the site) that purported to determine what religion I ought to have been, based on the prejudices and assumptions expressed in the answers I gave to around 100 questions. Turns out that I ought to be an orthodox Jew - and in that light I could, if I wished, interpret such words to be those of a heretical, deluded, blasphemer.

However, that kind of interpretation has as much to do with the recorded text as does yours - which is to say, precisely, nothing.

V1-3: These nations are in rebellion against God at the end of the age. The nations raging is plural goyim referring to Gentile nations. Israel is surrounded by Muslim nations (as predicted they would be) so the general context I believe are those nations but is applicable to any that plot against God, his chosen and his chosen city...Zion.

This is the perfect example of a prejudice read back into a text by an 'interpreter' concerned only to justify a pre-existing belief. Your interpretation as to the nature of 'Zion' is not the only interpretation available; not even the only Christian interpretation - the Mormons will tell you that 'Zion' is actually America - in which case the 'goyim' in question could just as easily be located in any of the nations of the world professing to detest the USA. Just as easily, and equally without substantiation. As I said, the mountain of your bigotry is as transparent as glass - to all but you.

The whole of your 'response' is predicated on a set of assumptions that you have transferred into the text - assumptions with which the text in itself has nothing whatever to do. I don't expect you to understand the point - because there are none so blind as those who choose not to see, and you're unable to choose to see anything other than what you have already assumed to be true, because to do so would put at risk the feeble edifice of your 'faith'.

As to your comment on the OT being nothing but a reference to the advent of 'Jesus Christ' - I doubt that you'll find many true believers among God's 'chosen people', to whom the Pentateuch was originally addressed, who would agree with you. But that's because they're all deluded Jews, right?

To: KFC

It’s not about our desires being met but his intent to free us from bondage to those desires. Our false conclusions lead us to run from God instead of toward him. He is after better eternal things for us than we see for ourselves.

Ah yes. 'God will make you good, and in the process cause you to suffer miserably, while rewarding the wicked on every hand. But don't worry - everything will be better when you're dead.' A medieval argument suitable to a medieval mind.

An argument which kills at the root any impulse toward charity, any attempt to ameliorate social ills, any attempt to establish justice here among the living, any attempt to alter any situation, of any kind, for the better.

The cynical fatalism of such doctrines does not befit a Christian - though it is of a piece with your abominable pride and self-satisfaction. As I've said elsewhere, your Jesus must be proud of you.

To: KFC

Where did we say, there were innocents anywhere? I've never said that either in the OT or in the NT.

The comment you refer to was addressed to Tova7. If you can do nothing else, at the very least pay attention to what is being said to whom.